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Semantics of charge vs counter charge

 
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klsumpter
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2016 1:54 pm    Post subject: Semantics of charge vs counter charge

Hey all,

New to Warrior and something has been bugging me. The language behind charging versus counter charging has never been especially clear to me. I read that charges are considered to occur simultaneously, and I took this to mean that essentially if two bodies can charge each other and they decide to do so then they both count as charging, not one body is charging and the other is counter charging. Is this the correct read on the situation? If so, what is a situation in which a body would be counter charging and not regularly charging? Cuz it seems like the forward moving nature of Warrior means that if you can charge then generally you do. Thanks for any clarification. I've perused the archives but the search function didn't turn up anything that answered my question. Sorry if I'm asking about an already answered topic.

~Kenton
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Mark Stone
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2016 8:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Semantics of charge vs counter charge

klsumpter wrote:
Hey all,

New to Warrior and something has been bugging me. The language behind charging versus counter charging has never been especially clear to me. I read that charges are considered to occur simultaneously, and I took this to mean that essentially if two bodies can charge each other and they decide to do so then they both count as charging, not one body is charging and the other is counter charging. Is this the correct read on the situation? If so, what is a situation in which a body would be counter charging and not regularly charging? Cuz it seems like the forward moving nature of Warrior means that if you can charge then generally you do. Thanks for any clarification. I've perused the archives but the search function didn't turn up anything that answered my question. Sorry if I'm asking about an already answered topic.

~Kenton


All charges, including counter charges, are indeed considered to take place simultaneously. However, before any charge movement can take place, we have to know who's doing what. Thus we have a two step process that precedes charge movement, which consists of (1) charge declarations, and (2) charge responses.

If you declare a legal charge in charge declarations, and that charge is not otherwise cancelled (various things can cancel a charge), then you are charging. Plain and simple. The only other way to be charging is if previous charges/pursuits have resulted in a converted charge.

Once charges are declared, those bodies that have, as a result, become targets of charges generally get a charge response. Depending on circumstances and eligibility, that response might be (1) stand and receive, (2) evade, or (3) counter charge. So the only way one can be in a counter charging state is as a charge response.

Note that all this is sorted out -- charges, and responses, including counter charges -- before any charge movement is actually executed.

Once that is sorted out, the charge movement and charge response movement is executed. At this point counter chargers and chargers are essentially the same -- both move charge moves, both count as charging, etc.

In general the ability to counter charge comes with greater restrictions than the ability to charge -- normally counter charges cannot be impetuous, mounted counter charging foot must first pass a waver test, and a number of troop types simply do not have "counter charge" as a legal response against being charged by some other troop types. But once you clear all those hurdles, and execute a counter charge if you are able to do so, then there is no effective difference between a charge and a counter charge.

I hope that clarifies things. Let us know if you have further questions.
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klsumpter
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 10:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Semantics of charging vs counter charging

~Once charges are declared, those bodies that have, as a result, become targets of charges generally get a charge response. Depending on circumstances and eligibility, that response might be (1) stand and receive, (2) evade, or (3) counter charge. So the only way one can be in a counter charging state is as a charge response. ~

This is helping. So in this case, if the charge response of one body against a charger is to counter charge, then both bodies are considered to be in the counter charging state and must abide by those restrictions (e.g. limits on impetuous charges, waver tests, etc.)? This makes charging a little more restricted than I thought, but it does mean that charging someone unable to counter charge is much more important. I feel like one game with a veteran and a lot of my newb questions would be answered. The book is very literal and sometimes I read into rules too much. Thanks though!
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LarryEssick
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2016 2:54 am    Post subject: Re: Semantics of charge vs counter charge

Mark Stone wrote:
But once you clear all those hurdles, and execute a counter charge if you are able to do so, then there is no effective difference between a charge and a counter charge.


Mark, I take exception to this explanation.

Distance moved is resolved as if both bodies are moving. Bonus for charging applies (if eligible). Weapons eligible for use only in a charge (L for example, maybe the only one) are usable if so equipped. So, in broad terms what you have written seems accurate.

However, there is one big element that does not make the two effectively the same -- and that is counter charges cannot be impetuous.

While not *all* charges are impetuous there are almost no circumstances where a counter charge can be impetuous.

I think it would have been better had you said, "there is little difference between" the two.
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Mark Stone
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2016 2:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Semantics of charge vs counter charge

LarryEssick wrote:
Mark Stone wrote:
But once you clear all those hurdles, and execute a counter charge if you are able to do so, then there is no effective difference between a charge and a counter charge.


Mark, I take exception to this explanation.

Distance moved is resolved as if both bodies are moving. Bonus for charging applies (if eligible). Weapons eligible for use only in a charge (L for example, maybe the only one) are usable if so equipped. So, in broad terms what you have written seems accurate.

However, there is one big element that does not make the two effectively the same -- and that is counter charges cannot be impetuous.

While not *all* charges are impetuous there are almost no circumstances where a counter charge can be impetuous.

I think it would have been better had you said, "there is little difference between" the two.


Sure. That's why I go on to say:
Quote:
In general the ability to counter charge comes with greater restrictions than the ability to charge -- normally counter charges cannot be impetuous....
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Frank Gilson
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 8:21 pm    Post subject:

I wanted to correct a misconception here in this post:
"then both bodies are considered to be in the counter charging state and must abide by those restrictions"

No, the originally charging body is NOT considered to be in the counter charging state and does NOT abide by those restrictions.
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