Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 11/12/2003 3:09:42 PM Eastern Standard Time,
Harlan.D.Garrett@... writes:

> Ok, what do I get? A free copy of the New World Warrior.
> >>

Oh heck - double that.

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 11/12/2003 19:32:17 Central Standard Time, gar@...
writes:
I am troubled by this line in the sand, think it
harms the game, and above all else am bothered that after all these
years of playing, army lists are still being used to hound players,
rather than as a tool to help players build an army they can
historically love.
Ok, you're losing me here, Greg. I am trying to say that we failed Dave by
allowing this to happen - that I am sorry about it and have taken steps to
correct this problem for the future, which is all that is humanly possible in
this
case at this point. So, how are we hounding players with an army list???

If I had my way, we'd give the option and let the player decide - and I may
get my way yet.

And note - how a manufacturer makes a figure is NOT a source of info for us.
Rather than cite myriad examples, I'll just use left-handed Han and leave it
at that....lol

J


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'll quote the Irish guy from Braveheart, " The Lords says, " Quit changing
the subject and answer the fooking question! "
I'm sorry, no offence, I love that guy. Waiting patiently for Scott.
David
----- Original Message -----
From: <JonCleaves@...>
To: <WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 2:18 PM
Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] Re: #16. Anglo-Irish


> In a message dated 11/12/2003 3:09:42 PM Eastern Standard Time,
Harlan.D.Garrett@... writes:
>
> > Ok, what do I get? A free copy of the New World Warrior.
> > >>
>
> Oh heck - double that.
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> WarriorRules-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Thanks Scott,
Ok, I get it, the list comes out, I buy lead and start to convert figs.,
then the research shows no shields. I 'm glad a friend told me about the
change on the web site before I finished that 48th figure. I sure am glad I
didn't go to a tourney with them. It's cool! I had fun doing it.
David
----- Original Message -----
From: "Holder, Scott" <Scott.Holder@...>
To: <WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 1:57 PM
Subject: RE: [WarriorRules] Re: #16. Anglo-Irish


> I was wondering when someone would come up with that comment. There is
evidence, not much, but some written accounts that indicate moogs had
shields. I can't quote you chapter and verse right now but when we did the
research for the lists, it came up.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Harlan D. Garrett [mailto:Harlan.D.Garrett@...]
> Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 1:51 PM
> To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [WarriorRules] Re: #16. Anglo-Irish
>
>
> Dave,
>
> I think the moogs swam across the channel and stole our shields.
>
> Harlan
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DBeeson [mailto:dbeeson@...]
> Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 12:36 PM
> To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] Re: #16. Anglo-Irish
>
>
> Scott or Jon,
> The Texas Irish would very much like to know what happened to the shields
of
> the famed Galloglaigh warriors, what about their historical effectiveness?
I
> think Wellington was right, it was the whiskey that stop the Lads, so
please
> may we have our shields back? Big Dave
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "kelly wilkinson" <jwilkinson62@...>
> To: <WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 11:37 PM
> Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] Re: #16. Anglo-Irish
>
>
> > One of Jake Kovel's all-time favorite lists--The Medieval Irish! I
> > agree
> with Greg though, and will put forth something that Wellington said of his
> Inninskillings (I hope I didn't butcher the spelling too much!), "If it
> wasn't for whiskey and the fact that they like killing each other so much,
> the Irish would have conquered the world by now!"
> >
> > Kelly
> >
> > Greg Regets <gar@...> wrote:
> > Actually played one of the best games in years last night against Dave
> > and these Irish guys. It's a reasonably stout army, and a perfect
> > example of picking an army that suits the player to a tee.
> >
> > g
> >
> >
> > --- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "Harlan D. Garrett"
> > <Harlan.D.Garrett@W...> wrote:
> > > Gee Greg, tell us how you really feel.
> > >
> > > HG
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Greg Regets [mailto:gar@t...]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 8:30 AM
> > > To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: [WarriorRules] #16. Anglo-Irish
> > >
> > >
> > > Some of us down here in the land of shotguns and cold beer, were
> > > wondering what happened to the shields for the Galloglaich troops
> > on
> > > list #16. Anglo-Irish? They seem to have vanished, along with the
> > > unit's historical effectiveness.
> > >
> > > I'm actually asking this for another person, by buddy Big Dave.
> > Trust
> > > me, I wouldn't play a bunch of leprechaun looking, Guiness
> > drinking,
> > > shamrock wearing, Notre Dame cheering, Irish ... if it were the
> > last
> > > army on earth.
> > >
> > > greg
> > >
> > >
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Thanks Jon,
No really, Jon it's no big deal:)
I'm a Lead junky! I have a problem I know but...
I can be abused and would not dream of holding my addiction against anyone
least of all against The Four Horsemen.
I'm just poking a little fun:)
David

----- Original Message -----
From: <JonCleaves@...>
To: <WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 6:07 PM
Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] Re: #16. Anglo-Irish


> In a message dated 11/12/2003 17:43:38 Central Standard Time,
> dbeeson@... writes:
> Thanks Scott,
> Ok, I get it, the list comes out, I buy lead and start to convert figs.,
> then the research shows no shields. I 'm glad a friend told me about the
> change on the web site before I finished that 48th figure. I sure am glad
I
> didn't go to a tourney with them. It's cool! I had fun doing it.
> David
> David, you are right to be upset. I can't tell you anything to ease your
> pain over this situation, but I can tell you that I will get more
personally
> involved in ensuring this does not happen again. Our internal procedures
failed
> to protect you as the player and that is fixed as of today, I can assure
you.
>
> I am dreadfully sorry. I would take it as a personal favor if you would
not
> hold this too strongly against us.
>
> Jon
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
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>

[Greg Regets]

I suffer from the perhaps failed trait of keeping almost everything
ever sent to me concerning Warrior. It should be said that in Scott's
original drafts of Feudal, the Gallogliach had no shields, or darts
for that matter.

I think the confusion exists in several areas.

The first point exists in the very definition of Gallogliach, which
literally means "foreign young warrior." It seems clear that these
were Scottish mercenaries from the Hebrides, and men of Viking stock,
both of which get shields on their respective Warrior army lists. The
connection to shielded foot can be made based on that alone, in many
people's opinion.

The second point is of course giving shields to troops that did not
historically have them. There is banality in rahashing the "Moog"
debate, but there can be NO question that Warrior lists have given
shields to any number SHK that CLEARLY did not have them, because of
the way shieldless SHK fit into the gaming system. Speaking quite
honestly, when I got my copy of Feudal and saw the Gallogliach, I
instantly thought Scott had included them to simulate historical
effect.

Lastly, many of the figure manufacturers offer these troops with
shields - most in fact. Essex 25mm only offers them as shielded, and
they make four different figures.

I feel very badly for Dave, who is not exactly Bill Gates wealthy -
but, having known him for most of my life fully expected him to be
congenial. Dave was not even going to mention this, which is why I
did.

I have no plans to ever play this army, but am much less congenial
than Dave, ha-ha! I am troubled by this line in the sand, think it
harms the game, and above all else am bothered that after all these
years of playing, army lists are still being used to hound players,
rather than as a tool to help players build an army they can
historically love.

Dave ... you may use them shielded when we play each other. That
includes tournament. :-)

Greg

[scott holder]

There are no requirements for these guys, plus, I'd ask everybody to run numbers
on em. You triple arm these guys and they hold their own.

-----Original Message-----
From: DBeeson [mailto:dbeeson@...]
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 5:41 PM
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] Re: #16. Anglo-Irish


Thanks Scott,
Ok, I get it, the list comes out, I buy lead and start to convert figs.,
then the research shows no shields. I 'm glad a friend told me about the
change on the web site before I finished that 48th figure. I sure am glad I
didn't go to a tourney with them. It's cool! I had fun doing it.
David
----- Original Message -----
From: "Holder, Scott" <Scott.Holder@...>
To: <WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 1:57 PM
Subject: RE: [WarriorRules] Re: #16. Anglo-Irish


> I was wondering when someone would come up with that comment. There is
evidence, not much, but some written accounts that indicate moogs had
shields. I can't quote you chapter and verse right now but when we did the
research for the lists, it came up.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Harlan D. Garrett [mailto:Harlan.D.Garrett@...]
> Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 1:51 PM
> To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [WarriorRules] Re: #16. Anglo-Irish
>
>
> Dave,
>
> I think the moogs swam across the channel and stole our shields.
>
> Harlan
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DBeeson [mailto:dbeeson@...]
> Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 12:36 PM
> To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] Re: #16. Anglo-Irish
>
>
> Scott or Jon,
> The Texas Irish would very much like to know what happened to the shields
of
> the famed Galloglaigh warriors, what about their historical effectiveness?
I
> think Wellington was right, it was the whiskey that stop the Lads, so
please
> may we have our shields back? Big Dave
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "kelly wilkinson" <jwilkinson62@...>
> To: <WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 11:37 PM
> Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] Re: #16. Anglo-Irish
>
>
> > One of Jake Kovel's all-time favorite lists--The Medieval Irish! I
> > agree
> with Greg though, and will put forth something that Wellington said of his
> Inninskillings (I hope I didn't butcher the spelling too much!), "If it
> wasn't for whiskey and the fact that they like killing each other so much,
> the Irish would have conquered the world by now!"
> >
> > Kelly
> >
> > Greg Regets <gar@...> wrote:
> > Actually played one of the best games in years last night against Dave
> > and these Irish guys. It's a reasonably stout army, and a perfect
> > example of picking an army that suits the player to a tee.
> >
> > g
> >
> >
> > --- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "Harlan D. Garrett"
> > <Harlan.D.Garrett@W...> wrote:
> > > Gee Greg, tell us how you really feel.
> > >
> > > HG
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Greg Regets [mailto:gar@t...]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 8:30 AM
> > > To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: [WarriorRules] #16. Anglo-Irish
> > >
> > >
> > > Some of us down here in the land of shotguns and cold beer, were
> > > wondering what happened to the shields for the Galloglaich troops
> > on
> > > list #16. Anglo-Irish? They seem to have vanished, along with the
> > > unit's historical effectiveness.
> > >
> > > I'm actually asking this for another person, by buddy Big Dave.
> > Trust
> > > me, I wouldn't play a bunch of leprechaun looking, Guiness
> > drinking,
> > > shamrock wearing, Notre Dame cheering, Irish ... if it were the
> > last
> > > army on earth.
> > >
> > > greg
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------
> > ~--> Buy
> > > Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark
> > Printer
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> > > http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511
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> > > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > -~->
> > >
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> > > WarriorRules-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> > >
> > >
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[scott holder]

I worked very very very hard with several other folks, to include two guys doing
lists for Terry Gore's system and everyone agreed, no shields.

So, why did "shields" make it into the published product? I screwed up on
proofing. Early on with galloglaich, I had shields in there because it was a
carry over from earlier lists. I simply forgot, duh, to pull them. You'd think
that after all the emails and discussion I had with people about them, I would
have pulled them (the shields).

It was a proofing error, nothing "more". Sorry.

-----Original Message-----
From: johncarroll453@... [mailto:johncarroll453@...]
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 6:46 PM
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] Re: #16. Anglo-Irish


In a message dated 11/12/03 3:18:21 PM Pacific Standard Time,
Scott.Holder@... writes:

<< Subj: RE: [WarriorRules] Re: #16. Anglo-Irish
Date: 11/12/03 3:18:21 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: Scott.Holder@... (Holder, Scott)
Reply-to: <A HREF="mailto:WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com">
WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com</A>
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com

We took them out because there is no, repeat NO written or picture evidence
to indicate they had them. We spent an incredibly long amount of time
agonizing over one troop type in Feudal Warrior, that's right, galloglaich, in
terms
of "what to do with them".

They had no shields, period. I don't have FeudWar in front of me to comment
on how they fit into the rest of the list's context because we looked at them
from that angle after we dropped the shields.
>>


To see some later period engravings of galloglaich, see Gush's "Renaissance
Armies". Not a shield in sight.

John the OFM


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[scott holder]

"I worked very very very hard with several other folks, to include two guys
doing lists for Terry Gore's system and everyone agreed, no shields.
So, why did "shields" make it into the published product? I screwed up on
proofing. Early on with galloglaich, I had shields in there because it was a
carry over from earlier lists. I simply forgot, duh, to pull them. You'd think
that after all the emails and discussion I had with people about them, I would
have pulled them (the shields)."


Okay, after reading Greg's post, I went back and perused by earlier 7 or so
drafts of FeudWar and yes, shields for galloglaich came and went as the research
progressed. And as John indicated, we looked long and hard at even out of
period tomb effigies to find ANY evidence of shields. There were none.

But, in the back and forth of production, I failed to pull SH from the
galloglaich entry. Again, it's a proofing error, nothing more.

And everyone should look at the historical context of these guys. They were
effective against Irr LMI JLS guys and some of the lighter-armored mounted folks
in Ireland. Plug and chug the numbers and you'll find that triple armed
galloglaichs do just fine against their historical opponents.

scott

In a message dated 13/11/2003 12:10:15 GMT Standard Time,
Scott.Holder@... writes:

> And as John indicated, we looked long and hard at even out of period tomb
> effigies to find ANY evidence of shields. There were none.
>

You could ask the question on the Yahoo:ANCMED group. They might have some
relevant information. Steve


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 13/11/2003 19:46:54 GMT Standard Time,
Harlan.D.Garrett@... writes:

> Who is the ANCMED group?
>

They are a yahoo discussion group dealing with ancient and medieval warfare,
history, figures, armies, etc. Some serious knowledge available. Recent
themes: Accurate Sassanids; The use of African Papyrus records in collating
Roman
unit size; Differing methods of 'speed' bowfire., etc., etc.

Steve


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Greg Regets]

And you found this evidence for Burgundian Gendarmes, as it applies
to shields?

Please understand - NOBODY is questioning knowledge of history -
especially not Scott's knowledge. He has probably forgotten more
history than I will ever know.

What is in question is the application of history to the lists, which
can best be described as capricious.

Happy Gaming ... Greg




--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, cstevecarroll@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 13/11/2003 12:10:15 GMT Standard Time,
> Scott.Holder@f... writes:
>
> > And as John indicated, we looked long and hard at even out of
period tomb
> > effigies to find ANY evidence of shields. There were none.
> >
>
> You could ask the question on the Yahoo:ANCMED group. They might
have some
> relevant information. Steve
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 11/13/2003 2:04:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, gar@...
writes:

> And you found this evidence for Burgundian Gendarmes, as it
> applies
> to shields?>>

Come on, Greg. You know what we said in FW about SHK Sh in some cases and why.
I am willing to go the extra mile for the player, but you're getting to be an
army of one on this stuff.

Jon

[Harlan Garrett]

Who is the ANCMED group?

Harlan

-----Original Message-----
From: cstevecarroll@... [mailto:cstevecarroll@...]
Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 12:31 PM
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] Re: #16. Anglo-Irish


In a message dated 13/11/2003 12:10:15 GMT Standard Time,
Scott.Holder@... writes:

> And as John indicated, we looked long and hard at even out of period
> tomb
> effigies to find ANY evidence of shields. There were none.
>

You could ask the question on the Yahoo:ANCMED group. They might have some
relevant information. Steve


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[scott holder]

> And you found this evidence for Burgundian Gendarmes, as it
> applies
> to shields?>>

Come on, Greg. You know what we said in FW about SHK Sh in some cases and why.
I am willing to go the extra mile for the player, but you're getting to be an
army of one on this stuff.

>I don't feel it's capricious. Bill and I are primarily responsible for the
rationale behind the decisions that are made. We don't make them lightly and we
don't apply them capricously.

>We explained in various Notes sections of FeudWar about the general SHK Sh
question and made allowances in the lists for either having them, or not having
them (in all instances, it's an all/none feature). I read, I dunno, half a
dozen modern analyses on the development of late medieval armor and why the
shield was dropped, ie., the armor produced a "shield-like" effect, hence it
wasn't needed.

scott