Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[Greg Regets]

DAW 12. Early Byzantine (warm)

1x CinC Reg A HC L B Sh, +1 Boukellarioi Reg A HC L B Sh @200
1x 2-in-C Reg A HC L B Sh, +1 Boukellarioi Reg A HC L B Sh @130
1x Hunnic Sub Irr B HC L B Sh, +1 Hun Nobles Irr B HC L B Sh @105

2x Kavallarioi Lancers 2-Stands Reg B EHC L Sh @88ea = 176
1x Gothic Cavalry 2-Stands Irr B HC L Sh @79
2x Hunnic Nobles 2-Stands Irr B HC L B Sh @85ea = 170

4x Huns 4-Stands Irr C LC JLS B Sh @81ea = 324
5x Kavallarioi Scouts 2-Stands Reg B LC JLS Sh @46ea = 230

4x Psiloi 2-Stand Reg C LI JLS Sh @26ea = 104
2x Psiloi 4-Stand Reg C LI S Sh @42ea = 84

Points = 1598
Scouting = 102
Terrain Choices = Road, Open, Open, Gully

[Ewan McNay]

> 1x CinC Reg A HC L B Sh, +1 Boukellarioi Reg A HC L B Sh @200
> 1x 2-in-C Reg A HC L B Sh, +1 Boukellarioi Reg A HC L B Sh @130
> 1x Hunnic Sub Irr B HC L B Sh, +1 Hun Nobles Irr B HC L B Sh @105
>
> 2x Kavallarioi Lancers 2-Stands Reg B EHC L Sh @88ea = 176
> 1x Gothic Cavalry 2-Stands Irr B HC L Sh @79
> 2x Hunnic Nobles 2-Stands Irr B HC L B Sh @85ea = 170
>
> 4x Huns 4-Stands Irr C LC JLS B Sh @81ea = 324
> 5x Kavallarioi Scouts 2-Stands Reg B LC JLS Sh @46ea = 230
>
> 4x Psiloi 2-Stand Reg C LI JLS Sh @26ea = 104
> 2x Psiloi 4-Stand Reg C LI S Sh @42ea = 84
>
> Points = 1598
> Scouting = 102
> Terrain Choices = Road, Open, Open, Gully

Gully? Well, whatever .

Sums to: 9xLC, 8xHC, 6XLI. Which is a lot of units.

Obvious problems against massed infantry bowfire, no big surprise.

Other than that: I would again avoid EHC, not liking the minimal (to me)
extra impact for the cost), but they may be compulsory. If they're
compulsory as lancers but not as EHC, then the upgrade makes more sense.
I imagine that the gothic cav are also compulsory; I just don't see HC
lancers as that good, but that may be one of these infamous style things...

I'd again put the Hun LC into 6E units, probably, but not a huge deal.

This is all nitpicking. I like the focus (i.e. lack of any attempt to
have a close foot core), I like the LC combination. I like the LI
armament and number. Basically fine.

e

[Greg Regets]

Thanks for the commentary Ewan ... always interested in hearing your
opinion!!

I didn't want to put any reasoning for what I was buying or selecting
for terrain, in the original post, because I really wanted to hear
people's unfiltered opinions.

Again, thank you very much for your thoughts!

g




--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, Ewan McNay <ewan.mcnay@y...>
wrote:
> > 1x CinC Reg A HC L B Sh, +1 Boukellarioi Reg A HC L B Sh @200
> > 1x 2-in-C Reg A HC L B Sh, +1 Boukellarioi Reg A HC L B Sh @130
> > 1x Hunnic Sub Irr B HC L B Sh, +1 Hun Nobles Irr B HC L B Sh @105
> >
> > 2x Kavallarioi Lancers 2-Stands Reg B EHC L Sh @88ea = 176
> > 1x Gothic Cavalry 2-Stands Irr B HC L Sh @79
> > 2x Hunnic Nobles 2-Stands Irr B HC L B Sh @85ea = 170
> >
> > 4x Huns 4-Stands Irr C LC JLS B Sh @81ea = 324
> > 5x Kavallarioi Scouts 2-Stands Reg B LC JLS Sh @46ea = 230
> >
> > 4x Psiloi 2-Stand Reg C LI JLS Sh @26ea = 104
> > 2x Psiloi 4-Stand Reg C LI S Sh @42ea = 84
> >
> > Points = 1598
> > Scouting = 102
> > Terrain Choices = Road, Open, Open, Gully
>
> Gully? Well, whatever .
>
> Sums to: 9xLC, 8xHC, 6XLI. Which is a lot of units.
>
> Obvious problems against massed infantry bowfire, no big surprise.
>
> Other than that: I would again avoid EHC, not liking the minimal
(to me)
> extra impact for the cost), but they may be compulsory. If they're
> compulsory as lancers but not as EHC, then the upgrade makes more
sense.
> I imagine that the gothic cav are also compulsory; I just don't see
HC
> lancers as that good, but that may be one of these infamous style
things...
>
> I'd again put the Hun LC into 6E units, probably, but not a huge
deal.
>
> This is all nitpicking. I like the focus (i.e. lack of any attempt
to
> have a close foot core), I like the LC combination. I like the LI
> armament and number. Basically fine.
>
> e

[joncleaves]

Obvious problems against massed infantry bowfire, no big surprise.>>

And Dumbo and Tantor....lol

<<Other than that: I would again avoid EHC, not liking the minimal (to me)
extra impact for the cost), but they may be compulsory. If they're
compulsory as lancers but not as EHC, then the upgrade makes more sense.
I imagine that the gothic cav are also compulsory; I just don't see HC
lancers as that good, but that may be one of these infamous style things...

I'd again put the Hun LC into 6E units, probably, but not a huge deal.

This is all nitpicking. I like the focus (i.e. lack of any attempt to
have a close foot core), I like the LC combination. I like the LI
armament and number. Basically fine.>>

I imagine Greg and Ewan have similar styles with differences in execution. Both
seek to tie up the balance of the opponent's army with light troops, pick some
spot and smash it to hell.

This army though would have serious trouble against a tropical/elephant force -
the other guy will get enough of his terrain choices to hide his stuff that is
susceptible to lancers and the rest of the table will be things none of this
list can touch. At least with Ewan's sassanids, he owns things that can handle
the other guy's El.

Now, I imagine this has something to do with the lists one often plays against.
My thoughts are admittedly always geared towards the national level where you
can be *sure* of meeting one or more such elephant armies along the way. If
this list fought a bunch of feudal/dark age, it would rock.

I agree with Ewan on the focus of the list, though - gotta give credit for
having one plan and making a list that suits it....

J

[Greg Regets]

Thanks for the response Jon ... very helpful!



--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, JonCleaves@a... wrote:
> Obvious problems against massed infantry bowfire, no big surprise.>>
>
> And Dumbo and Tantor....lol
>
> <<Other than that: I would again avoid EHC, not liking the minimal
(to me)
> extra impact for the cost), but they may be compulsory. If they're
> compulsory as lancers but not as EHC, then the upgrade makes more
sense.
> I imagine that the gothic cav are also compulsory; I just don't see
HC
> lancers as that good, but that may be one of these infamous style
things...
>
> I'd again put the Hun LC into 6E units, probably, but not a huge
deal.
>
> This is all nitpicking. I like the focus (i.e. lack of any attempt
to
> have a close foot core), I like the LC combination. I like the LI
> armament and number. Basically fine.>>
>
> I imagine Greg and Ewan have similar styles with differences in
execution. Both seek to tie up the balance of the opponent's army
with light troops, pick some spot and smash it to hell.
>
> This army though would have serious trouble against a
tropical/elephant force - the other guy will get enough of his
terrain choices to hide his stuff that is susceptible to lancers and
the rest of the table will be things none of this list can touch. At
least with Ewan's sassanids, he owns things that can handle the other
guy's El.
>
> Now, I imagine this has something to do with the lists one often
plays against. My thoughts are admittedly always geared towards the
national level where you can be *sure* of meeting one or more such
elephant armies along the way. If this list fought a bunch of
feudal/dark age, it would rock.
>
> I agree with Ewan on the focus of the list, though - gotta give
credit for having one plan and making a list that suits it....
>
> J

[Kelly Wilkinson]

Greg,

Where are the only stand up troops in this army (Skuts)! Good luck against
a Khmer or Burmese or for that matter any Elephant army with regulars. . . These
guys are interesting but I like their Great great grand children much better.
But you play like Hannibal so who knows. . .
k

Greg Regets <greg.regets@...> wrote:

DAW 12. Early Byzantine (warm)

1x CinC Reg A HC L B Sh, +1 Boukellarioi Reg A HC L B Sh @200
1x 2-in-C Reg A HC L B Sh, +1 Boukellarioi Reg A HC L B Sh @130
1x Hunnic Sub Irr B HC L B Sh, +1 Hun Nobles Irr B HC L B Sh @105

2x Kavallarioi Lancers 2-Stands Reg B EHC L Sh @88ea = 176
1x Gothic Cavalry 2-Stands Irr B HC L Sh @79
2x Hunnic Nobles 2-Stands Irr B HC L B Sh @85ea = 170

4x Huns 4-Stands Irr C LC JLS B Sh @81ea = 324
5x Kavallarioi Scouts 2-Stands Reg B LC JLS Sh @46ea = 230

4x Psiloi 2-Stand Reg C LI JLS Sh @26ea = 104
2x Psiloi 4-Stand Reg C LI S Sh @42ea = 84

Points = 1598
Scouting = 102
Terrain Choices = Road, Open, Open, Gully




Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
document.write('');

---------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WarriorRules/

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
WarriorRules-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Greg Regets]

You guys have elephants on the brain. ;-)

Exactly how are these vaunted elephant armies in 15mm, going to a)
catch me, b) protect the lights from my lights, c) put vulnerable
things in terrain, d) cover the entire table ... and do them all at
once?

I like my chances against elephant armies with this host, and again,
we are talking about 15mm games.

With this army, I'm more worried about protected foot that shoots
back, mixed with knights ... armies like 100YW English, etc ... Not
really much to do against that kind of army, and buying the Byzantine
infantry doesn't ameliorate that difficulty.

How about a rew more basic questions.

1. Would you change the armamemt on the Regular LC, to either half
JLS, half B ... or just take a few units of B only Regular LC?

2. Would you get rid of a Hun Noble and perhaps a LI unit or two, and
buy 2x 4-Stand regular LMI archer units?

3. What about taking all the LI as front rank S, back rank B, but
keeping them in the same numbers?

4. As Jon and Ewan rightly pointed out (in my view), the Skutatoi
just do not fit this army, and again thinking on Jon's comments,
against the types of armies I see around here, if I bought them, it
would tie my cavalry to a role of protecting them. With the number of
knights we see in this area, that might be problematic. How do you
feel about buying Skuts, and artillery to support them?

Thank you for the thoughts ... g

P.S. Anyone figure out what the gully is for? ;-)





--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, kelly wilkinson
<jwilkinson62@y...> wrote:
> Greg,
>
> Where are the only stand up troops in this army (Skuts)! Good
luck against a Khmer or Burmese or for that matter any Elephant army
with regulars. . . These guys are interesting but I like their Great
great grand children much better. But you play like Hannibal so who
knows. . .
> k
>
> Greg Regets <greg.regets@g...> wrote:
>
> DAW 12. Early Byzantine (warm)
>
> 1x CinC Reg A HC L B Sh, +1 Boukellarioi Reg A HC L B Sh @200
> 1x 2-in-C Reg A HC L B Sh, +1 Boukellarioi Reg A HC L B Sh @130
> 1x Hunnic Sub Irr B HC L B Sh, +1 Hun Nobles Irr B HC L B Sh @105
>
> 2x Kavallarioi Lancers 2-Stands Reg B EHC L Sh @88ea = 176
> 1x Gothic Cavalry 2-Stands Irr B HC L Sh @79
> 2x Hunnic Nobles 2-Stands Irr B HC L B Sh @85ea = 170
>
> 4x Huns 4-Stands Irr C LC JLS B Sh @81ea = 324
> 5x Kavallarioi Scouts 2-Stands Reg B LC JLS Sh @46ea = 230
>
> 4x Psiloi 2-Stand Reg C LI JLS Sh @26ea = 104
> 2x Psiloi 4-Stand Reg C LI S Sh @42ea = 84
>
> Points = 1598
> Scouting = 102
> Terrain Choices = Road, Open, Open, Gully
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
> document.write('');
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WarriorRules/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> WarriorRules-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

gully - protect the flank

[joncleaves]

You guys have elephants on the brain. >>

Someone who wishes to be a top contender must.

<<Exactly how are these vaunted elephant armies in 15mm, going to a)
catch me, b) protect the lights from my lights, c) put vulnerable
things in terrain, d) cover the entire table ... and do them all at
once? >>

The same way you could hope to actually kill something in an elephant army with
your list, Greg - solid play. This is a disingenuous question. Either player
skill matters, which I know you think it does, and so a good player with an
elephant army certainly is capable of making any or all of those things happen,
even if they were all simultaneously necessary, which they are not. Or player
skill does not matter and your list is the clear loser in the
rock-paper-scissors matchup to any of the typically seen 'elephant armies' such
as seleucid, sassanid, burmese, khmer, sultanate, carthaginian, etc.

Note that elephants in most of these armies shoot back and shoot back hard.
Typically a minimum of 8 figs per 2E frontage and often lots more. Many
opportunities for double disorder LC wavers, even if the El never 'catch'
you....

<<I like my chances against elephant armies with this host, and again,
we are talking about 15mm games.>>

I think you have a serious uphill climb, and it does not matter which scale.

<<With this army, I'm more worried about protected foot that shoots
back, mixed with knights ... armies like 100YW English, etc ...>>

Amen, brother - we certainly agree on that.

<< How about a rew more basic questions.

1. Would you change the armamemt on the Regular LC, to either half
JLS, half B ... or just take a few units of B only Regular LC?>>

I would definitely, should I take such an army, have some B-only reg LC.

<<2. Would you get rid of a Hun Noble and perhaps a LI unit or two, and
buy 2x 4-Stand regular LMI archer units?>>

I would.

<<3. What about taking all the LI as front rank S, back rank B, but
keeping them in the same numbers?>>

I do like that combo. If he stays away, you can still use the B range to split
fire. If he comes in, you shoot most things well.

<<4. As Jon and Ewan rightly pointed out (in my view), the Skutatoi
just do not fit this army, and again thinking on Jon's comments,
against the types of armies I see around here,>>

Now *that* ties in better with what you said above. You guys don't see a lot of
elephant play down there and that makes this army a lot stronger - especially as
it develops an answer for foot archers.

<< if I bought them, it
would tie my cavalry to a role of protecting them. With the number of
knights we see in this area, that might be problematic. How do you
feel about buying Skuts, and artillery to support them?>>

I am an undergrad artillery player looking to move into grad school. I have
used arty with great success, but they are a bitch and take training or they
will get you in all sorts of trouble. Arty does not support close foot well -
the same things tie up and beat both. Arty likes a peltast-type unit in support
(or better, JLS, B or D or S, Sh).

J

[Ewan McNay]

Greg Regets wrote:
> You guys have elephants on the brain.
>
> Exactly how are these vaunted elephant armies in 15mm, going to a)
> catch me, b) protect the lights from my lights, c) put vulnerable
> things in terrain, d) cover the entire table ... and do them all at
> once?

Well, I think both sides of this are valid. But elephants are not that
immobile, and often come in sufficient numbers to be able to cover a large
frontage of influence. Something like Seleucid is going to be able to
just push forward with a *long* line of pike / el / peltasts, playing in
terrain as needed better than you can and with a couple of bow blocks to
boot. A Khmer is going to be essentially invulnerable unless you send
lancers frontally into LMI B with the El right alongside. Something like
Sassanid is going to walk right through you - more cavalry bows than you
have, harder-hitting lancers, and with elephants and foot to add in to the
mix. Even Gupta - or anything else with a lot of LI B - is going to give
at least some trouble because the only way you have of getting through
that LI without exposing yourself to being routed in turn is to use your
own LI.

> I like my chances against elephant armies with this host, and again,
> we are talking about 15mm games.

Well, I'll be happy to give it a try. We have a one-day tournament this
Sunday, and you're welcome to stay and be fed... .

> With this army, I'm more worried about protected foot that shoots
> back, mixed with knights ... armies like 100YW English, etc ... Not
> really much to do against that kind of army, and buying the Byzantine
> infantry doesn't ameliorate that difficulty.

As I said, massed foot bow are problematic. Actually, Mongols would be a
problem, I think, also.

> How about a rew more basic questions.
> 1. Would you change the armamemt on the Regular LC, to either half
> JLS, half B ... or just take a few units of B only Regular LC?

Neither.

> 2. Would you get rid of a Hun Noble and perhaps a LI unit or two, and
> buy 2x 4-Stand regular LMI archer units?

That 'perhaps' is key. But, still, overall, no. Stay on focus.

> 3. What about taking all the LI as front rank S, back rank B, but
> keeping them in the same numbers?

No. LI S, Sh are wonderful at absorbing incoming fire from foot bow
troops, and that's a *vital* role for you. LI JLS, Sh get rid of opposing
LI B; equally a vital role. I would consider having maybe a 4E LI JLS, Sh
unit for that role.

Actually, depending on how many you have available, Ii would consider
getting rid of a Gothic cav unit or Kavallaroi and getting a bunch more
regular LI. Jon will tell you that's just me reverting to type .

> 4. As Jon and Ewan rightly pointed out (in my view), the Skutatoi
> just do not fit this army, and again thinking on Jon's comments,
> against the types of armies I see around here, if I bought them, it
> would tie my cavalry to a role of protecting them. With the number of
> knights we see in this area, that might be problematic. How do you
> feel about buying Skuts, and artillery to support them?

I already answered this.

> P.S. Anyone figure out what the gully is for? ;-)

As your *last* terrain piece? Well, it's great to ambush LI from, or to
shield an enemy piece of terrain. That's what comes immediately to mind.

>>DAW 12. Early Byzantine (warm)
>>
>>1x CinC Reg A HC L B Sh, +1 Boukellarioi Reg A HC L B Sh @200
>>1x 2-in-C Reg A HC L B Sh, +1 Boukellarioi Reg A HC L B Sh @130
>>1x Hunnic Sub Irr B HC L B Sh, +1 Hun Nobles Irr B HC L B Sh @105
>>
>>2x Kavallarioi Lancers 2-Stands Reg B EHC L Sh @88ea = 176
>>1x Gothic Cavalry 2-Stands Irr B HC L Sh @79
>>2x Hunnic Nobles 2-Stands Irr B HC L B Sh @85ea = 170
>>
>>4x Huns 4-Stands Irr C LC JLS B Sh @81ea = 324
>>5x Kavallarioi Scouts 2-Stands Reg B LC JLS Sh @46ea = 230
>>
>>4x Psiloi 2-Stand Reg C LI JLS Sh @26ea = 104
>>2x Psiloi 4-Stand Reg C LI S Sh @42ea = 84
>>
>>Points = 1598
>>Scouting = 102
>>Terrain Choices = Road, Open, Open, Gully
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
>>document.write('');
>>
>>---------------------------------
>>Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>> To visit your group on the web, go to:
>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WarriorRules/
>>
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>>WarriorRules-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>
>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
>
> Service.
>
>>
>>
>>---------------------------------
>>Do you Yahoo!?
>> Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'
>>
>>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[Greg Regets]

Well ... my poor, helpless, 15mm Early Byzantines will just have to
line up on my side of the table and get pushed off then. Justinian
and Theodora will be very unhappy!!!

It's unfortunate that all I can do with this army, is pin the enemy,
and do my best to use shooting priorities to keep him from shooting
at the same target two bounds in a row ... then evade, evade, evade.

Kind of a waste buying so many super-quick units to accomplish that
task, when I could probably do it as well or better, with just over
half the army.

But then ... what would I do with all those extra units??? ;-)

g

[Kelly Wilkinson]

Greg,

In a one list tournament, you will need to pray that you don't hit armies
like Sassanids, Timurids, Seleucids, Khmer, Burmese. The first four have plenty
of regular support types that will mess you up and plenty of shooting foot that
will keep you away. As far as the Burmese and other irreg elephant armies go,
you have nothing to go into the woods to get their crappy support troops who I
guarantee will be hiding. Heck, even brush will make it hard for you to mess
with massed Irg D Lmi bows not to mention the guard foot who have the crossbow
in the Burmese army. You are a great player, but Elephants give you serious
trouble and the one answer for you that messes up those guys are your skuts.
Perhaps you could get some of those nice cheap LMI B,Sh guys But they just don't
stand up like Skuts do. Additionally, when you take a 6 element skut, a knight
player will have to commit at least 2 kn units to win b/c kn's coming in are
5@5=20 not enough to do 1CPF and this doesn't take into
account caltrops and darts which by the way will scare off most elephants along
with the LTS, JLS combo. Ofcourse Burmese are probably more than happy to trade
shots with you. . . but then that becomes a tactics issue and who can split fire
more effectively. Personally, if I'm playing in a tournament with you, I'm
praying you take this list instead of your usual Knights of Saint John who can
effectively deal with any sort of army. :)

kw

Greg Regets <greg.regets@...> wrote:

You guys have elephants on the brain. ;-)

Exactly how are these vaunted elephant armies in 15mm, going to a)
catch me, b) protect the lights from my lights, c) put vulnerable
things in terrain, d) cover the entire table ... and do them all at
once?

I like my chances against elephant armies with this host, and again,
we are talking about 15mm games.

With this army, I'm more worried about protected foot that shoots
back, mixed with knights ... armies like 100YW English, etc ... Not
really much to do against that kind of army, and buying the Byzantine
infantry doesn't ameliorate that difficulty.

How about a rew more basic questions.

1. Would you change the armamemt on the Regular LC, to either half
JLS, half B ... or just take a few units of B only Regular LC?

2. Would you get rid of a Hun Noble and perhaps a LI unit or two, and
buy 2x 4-Stand regular LMI archer units?

3. What about taking all the LI as front rank S, back rank B, but
keeping them in the same numbers?

4. As Jon and Ewan rightly pointed out (in my view), the Skutatoi
just do not fit this army, and again thinking on Jon's comments,
against the types of armies I see around here, if I bought them, it
would tie my cavalry to a role of protecting them. With the number of
knights we see in this area, that might be problematic. How do you
feel about buying Skuts, and artillery to support them?

Thank you for the thoughts ... g

P.S. Anyone figure out what the gully is for? ;-)





--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, kelly wilkinson
<jwilkinson62@y...> wrote:
> Greg,
>
> Where are the only stand up troops in this army (Skuts)! Good
luck against a Khmer or Burmese or for that matter any Elephant army
with regulars. . . These guys are interesting but I like their Great
great grand children much better. But you play like Hannibal so who
knows. . .
> k
>
> Greg Regets <greg.regets@g...> wrote:
>
> DAW 12. Early Byzantine (warm)
>
> 1x CinC Reg A HC L B Sh, +1 Boukellarioi Reg A HC L B Sh @200
> 1x 2-in-C Reg A HC L B Sh, +1 Boukellarioi Reg A HC L B Sh @130
> 1x Hunnic Sub Irr B HC L B Sh, +1 Hun Nobles Irr B HC L B Sh @105
>
> 2x Kavallarioi Lancers 2-Stands Reg B EHC L Sh @88ea = 176
> 1x Gothic Cavalry 2-Stands Irr B HC L Sh @79
> 2x Hunnic Nobles 2-Stands Irr B HC L B Sh @85ea = 170
>
> 4x Huns 4-Stands Irr C LC JLS B Sh @81ea = 324
> 5x Kavallarioi Scouts 2-Stands Reg B LC JLS Sh @46ea = 230
>
> 4x Psiloi 2-Stand Reg C LI JLS Sh @26ea = 104
> 2x Psiloi 4-Stand Reg C LI S Sh @42ea = 84
>
> Points = 1598
> Scouting = 102
> Terrain Choices = Road, Open, Open, Gully
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
> document.write('');
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WarriorRules/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> WarriorRules-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
document.write('');

---------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WarriorRules/

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
WarriorRules-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Greg Regets]

<<<GREG>>> Now a more serious response to Ewan's suggestions.


> Greg Regets wrote:
> > You guys have elephants on the brain.
> >
> > Exactly how are these vaunted elephant armies in 15mm, going to
a)
> > catch me, b) protect the lights from my lights, c) put vulnerable
> > things in terrain, d) cover the entire table ... and do them all
at
> > once?
>
> Well, I think both sides of this are valid. But elephants are not
that
> immobile, and often come in sufficient numbers to be able to cover
a large
> frontage of influence. Something like Seleucid is going to be able
to
> just push forward with a *long* line of pike / el / peltasts,
playing in
> terrain as needed better than you can and with a couple of bow
blocks to
> boot. A Khmer is going to be essentially invulnerable unless you
send
> lancers frontally into LMI B with the El right alongside.
Something like
> Sassanid is going to walk right through you - more cavalry bows
than you
> have, harder-hitting lancers, and with elephants and foot to add in
to the
> mix. Even Gupta - or anything else with a lot of LI B - is going
to give
> at least some trouble because the only way you have of getting
through
> that LI without exposing yourself to being routed in turn is to use
your
> own LI.

<<<GREG>>> Well, the obvious intent is to build an army that can make
an enemy "go online" using just over half the army ... and then send
the rest on flank march. This is probably going to be the only way to
consistantly win, a sad state of affairs for an army that took back
the best 1/3 of the Roman empire, while holding off the Persians and
the Huns ... but thats another topic. One thing I have noticed about
elephant armies with supporting foot, is that they are actually
required to do just that ... support the elephants, with the foot.
While very powerful, they are somewhat more tactically inflexible
than the average "stick and move" army.


> > I like my chances against elephant armies with this host, and
again,
> > we are talking about 15mm games.

> Well, I'll be happy to give it a try. We have a one-day tournament
this
> Sunday, and you're welcome to stay and be fed... .

<<<GREG>>> You know airfare works both ways, and we have much better
weather down here. They also still won't let me north of Mason-
Dixon.


> > With this army, I'm more worried about protected foot that shoots
> > back, mixed with knights ... armies like 100YW English, etc ...
Not
> > really much to do against that kind of army, and buying the
Byzantine
> > infantry doesn't ameliorate that difficulty.
>
> As I said, massed foot bow are problematic. Actually, Mongols
would be a
> problem, I think, also.

<<<GREG>>> Mongols are going to be a problem for anyone, as will any
of the new "Rose Colored Glasses" armies. In a way, Jon hit the nail
on the head when he talked about playing the guys in your local area.
Our tournaments tend to run about 12 to 18 players, and in that type
of smaller environment, you can usually withstand a low scoring game,
and still make the playoffs. When we have a playoff, it is usually
straight Swiss scoring, and armies like this are very strong in that
arena.


> > How about a rew more basic questions.
> > 1. Would you change the armamemt on the Regular LC, to either
half
> > JLS, half B ... or just take a few units of B only Regular LC?
>
> Neither.

<<<GREG>>> Agree ... I like being shot at 1, when skirmishing.


> > 2. Would you get rid of a Hun Noble and perhaps a LI unit or two,
and
> > buy 2x 4-Stand regular LMI archer units?
>
> That 'perhaps' is key. But, still, overall, no. Stay on focus.

<<<GREG>>> I might buy one. I played the old Comnenan list for many
years, and always used the big foot archer unit.



> > 3. What about taking all the LI as front rank S, back rank B, but
> > keeping them in the same numbers?
>
> No. LI S, Sh are wonderful at absorbing incoming fire from foot
bow
> troops, and that's a *vital* role for you. LI JLS, Sh get rid of
opposing
> LI B; equally a vital role. I would consider having maybe a 4E LI
JLS, Sh
> unit for that role.

> Actually, depending on how many you have available, Ii would
consider
> getting rid of a Gothic cav unit or Kavallaroi and getting a bunch
more
> regular LI. Jon will tell you that's just me reverting to type .


<<<GREG>>> Both Gothic and lance only cavalry are required types. Not
really sure why in either case ... but I've said many times (until
blue in the face even) that this army list is simply not some of
FHE's better work. I can rid myself of the lance only cavalry, but it
costs me all my Byzantine LC. The up side is that I don't hate either
of these types overly.


> > 4. As Jon and Ewan rightly pointed out (in my view), the Skutatoi
> > just do not fit this army, and again thinking on Jon's comments,
> > against the types of armies I see around here, if I bought them,
it
> > would tie my cavalry to a role of protecting them. With the
number of
> > knights we see in this area, that might be problematic. How do
you
> > feel about buying Skuts, and artillery to support them?
>
> I already answered this.
>
> > P.S. Anyone figure out what the gully is for?
>
> As your *last* terrain piece? Well, it's great to ambush LI from,
or to
> shield an enemy piece of terrain. That's what comes immediately to
mind.

<<<GREG>>> Shielding enemy terrain is part of the answer to be sure.
Additonally, LI with JLS behind a gully is a hard target for an
elephant ... so if the other side is going to use terrain
offensively, and I place a gully, there will be one given ... I will
know where the elephants will be. Now I have elephants on the
brain. ;-)

[Greg Regets]

Ok Kelly ... exactly how many points are you playing with, and is
there some new list rule that says you get to roll all your terrain
choices before I get to roll any of mine? (wait, don't answer that
last part, as it might actually be true) ;-)

I know these are all "super armies" now, but for the most part they
are expensive and pretty damn small.

You're going to get your wish with this army, because after six years
of KofStJ, this is my new offering, complete with killer figures from
Museum! Of course when you come down here, for the most part it will
be two lists, largely removing this entire arguement. ;-)

g



--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, kelly wilkinson
<jwilkinson62@y...> wrote:
> Greg,
>
> In a one list tournament, you will need to pray that you don't
hit armies like Sassanids, Timurids, Seleucids, Khmer, Burmese. The
first four have plenty of regular support types that will mess you up
and plenty of shooting foot that will keep you away. As far as the
Burmese and other irreg elephant armies go, you have nothing to go
into the woods to get their crappy support troops who I guarantee
will be hiding. Heck, even brush will make it hard for you to mess
with massed Irg D Lmi bows not to mention the guard foot who have the
crossbow in the Burmese army. You are a great player, but Elephants
give you serious trouble and the one answer for you that messes up
those guys are your skuts. Perhaps you could get some of those nice
cheap LMI B,Sh guys But they just don't stand up like Skuts do.
Additionally, when you take a 6 element skut, a knight player will
have to commit at least 2 kn units to win b/c kn's coming in are
5@5=20 not enough to do 1CPF and this doesn't take into
> account caltrops and darts which by the way will scare off most
elephants along with the LTS, JLS combo. Ofcourse Burmese are
probably more than happy to trade shots with you. . . but then that
becomes a tactics issue and who can split fire more effectively.
Personally, if I'm playing in a tournament with you, I'm praying you
take this list instead of your usual Knights of Saint John who can
effectively deal with any sort of army.
>
> kw
>
> Greg Regets <greg.regets@g...> wrote:
>
> You guys have elephants on the brain.
>
> Exactly how are these vaunted elephant armies in 15mm, going to a)
> catch me, b) protect the lights from my lights, c) put vulnerable
> things in terrain, d) cover the entire table ... and do them all at
> once?
>
> I like my chances against elephant armies with this host, and
again,
> we are talking about 15mm games.
>
> With this army, I'm more worried about protected foot that shoots
> back, mixed with knights ... armies like 100YW English, etc ... Not
> really much to do against that kind of army, and buying the
Byzantine
> infantry doesn't ameliorate that difficulty.
>
> How about a rew more basic questions.
>
> 1. Would you change the armamemt on the Regular LC, to either half
> JLS, half B ... or just take a few units of B only Regular LC?
>
> 2. Would you get rid of a Hun Noble and perhaps a LI unit or two,
and
> buy 2x 4-Stand regular LMI archer units?
>
> 3. What about taking all the LI as front rank S, back rank B, but
> keeping them in the same numbers?
>
> 4. As Jon and Ewan rightly pointed out (in my view), the Skutatoi
> just do not fit this army, and again thinking on Jon's comments,
> against the types of armies I see around here, if I bought them, it
> would tie my cavalry to a role of protecting them. With the number
of
> knights we see in this area, that might be problematic. How do you
> feel about buying Skuts, and artillery to support them?
>
> Thank you for the thoughts ... g
>
> P.S. Anyone figure out what the gully is for?
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, kelly wilkinson
> <jwilkinson62@y...> wrote:
> > Greg,
> >
> > Where are the only stand up troops in this army (Skuts)!
Good
> luck against a Khmer or Burmese or for that matter any Elephant
army
> with regulars. . . These guys are interesting but I like their
Great
> great grand children much better. But you play like Hannibal so who
> knows. . .
> > k
> >
> > Greg Regets <greg.regets@g...> wrote:
> >
> > DAW 12. Early Byzantine (warm)
> >
> > 1x CinC Reg A HC L B Sh, +1 Boukellarioi Reg A HC L B Sh @200
> > 1x 2-in-C Reg A HC L B Sh, +1 Boukellarioi Reg A HC L B Sh @130
> > 1x Hunnic Sub Irr B HC L B Sh, +1 Hun Nobles Irr B HC L B Sh @105
> >
> > 2x Kavallarioi Lancers 2-Stands Reg B EHC L Sh @88ea = 176
> > 1x Gothic Cavalry 2-Stands Irr B HC L Sh @79
> > 2x Hunnic Nobles 2-Stands Irr B HC L B Sh @85ea = 170
> >
> > 4x Huns 4-Stands Irr C LC JLS B Sh @81ea = 324
> > 5x Kavallarioi Scouts 2-Stands Reg B LC JLS Sh @46ea = 230
> >
> > 4x Psiloi 2-Stand Reg C LI JLS Sh @26ea = 104
> > 2x Psiloi 4-Stand Reg C LI S Sh @42ea = 84
> >
> > Points = 1598
> > Scouting = 102
> > Terrain Choices = Road, Open, Open, Gully
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
> > document.write('');
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> > To visit your group on the web, go to:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WarriorRules/
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > WarriorRules-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service.
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
> document.write('');
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WarriorRules/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> WarriorRules-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[joncleaves]

<<<GREG>>> Well, the obvious intent is to build an army that can make
an enemy "go online" using just over half the army ... and then send
the rest on flank march. This is probably going to be the only way to
consistantly win, a sad state of affairs for an army that took back
the best 1/3 of the Roman empire, while holding off the Persians and
the Huns ...>>

I would counter that this army should indeed do quite well against its
historical opponents. Now, if it goes tromping off into the jungles of south
central or southeast asia...wel...


<<<GREG>>> Mongols are going to be a problem for anyone, as will any
of the new "Rose Colored Glasses" armies.>>

Thanks for your support, Greg...! lol

<<<GREG>>> ...but I've said many times (until
blue in the face even) that this army list is simply not some of
FHE's better work. >>>

Indigo, I should think, at this point....lol

J