Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[Dave Smith]

Gents;

A few weeks ago, I surveyed this _august_ group for feedback on my
next project which would be designed specifically for Warrior. I
got some great feedback, and indicated I would track the progress on
my website. The army that I decided upon, with ample assistance
from Jon, Kelly, Mark, Ewan and others, is Wallachian and Moldavian,
#35 in Holy Warrior. My first scheduled comp for these guys will be
Call to Arms '05, here in KC. I cobbled together a 1200 point list,
(since this is a 1200 point comp.) but would like to solicit some
feedback, before I launch into the painting. I chose the Old Glory
figures since they offered a line specifically designed for this
period/list.

Anyway, my attempt at a 1200 point Wallachian list, 1460AD.

Wallachian

35 Year List Source
CTA-05 1460AD Holy Warrior

General.........Bodyguard...............Pts
HK,L,Sh +..2 Irreg B,L,Sh,HK, L, Sh.......137(Vlad Dracule(of course)
HK,L,Sh +..2 Irreg B,L,Sh,HK, L, Sh........77(Boris Karloff)




Composition
#'s Elements, Tng...Morale...Type...Wpn.........Points
1E Boyars,....Irreg.. B......,HC...,L,Sh..........27 (with CinC)
1E Boyars,....Irreg...B,......HC,...L,Sh..........27 (with Sub)
2E Boyars.....Irreg..A/B.....HK/HC..L,Sh..........88
2E Boyars.....Irreg..A/B.....HK/HC..L,Sh..........88
6E Viteji.....Irreg...C.......LC....JLS,B,Sh.....109
6E Viteji.....Irreg...C.......LC....JLS,B,Sh.....109
6E Viteji.....Irreg...C.......LC....JLS,B,Sh.....109
8E Roum.Ft....Irreg...C.......LMI...JLS,Sh........97
8E Archers....Irreg...C.......LMI....B.1/2Sh......85
8E Archers....Irreg...C.......LMI....B.1/2Sh......85
8E Archers....Irreg...C.......LI.....B.1/2Sh......65
6E Crossbows..Irreg...C.......LI.....CB...........49
12ERustici....Irreg...D...... LMI...2HCW,B........51
.................................................1203



13 units including the small 2E generals units. 63 scouting points
(I think). A finess army to be sure, but I can add a little punch
with a Hungarian or Polish ally contingent. However, I thought they
would be a little too expensive for a 1200 point mini.

Thanks in advance for the feedback.

Dave
http://www.miniwars.com

[Ewan McNay]

David Smith wrote:
> Anyway, my attempt at a 1200 point Wallachian list, 1460AD.

OK. Caveat as ever that I don't keep lists at work, so any or all
comments may be impossible, merely desirable .

> Wallachian
> General.........Bodyguard...............Pts
> HK,L,Sh +..2 Irreg B,L,Sh,HK, L, Sh.......137(Vlad Dracule(of course)
> HK,L,Sh +..2 Irreg B,L,Sh,HK, L, Sh........77(Boris Karloff)

OK. You might consider that irregular knight subgenerals are not very
expensive, and I think that they're good value, so take one or two
more, but not a big deal. (A sub unit costs 104, or only 16 more
points than the the Irr A/B units you have, so you could probably take
two subs in the IrrA units if available).

> Composition
> #'s Elements, Tng...Morale...Type...Wpn.........Points
> 1E Boyars,....Irreg.. B......,HC...,L,Sh..........27 (with CinC)
> 1E Boyars,....Irreg...B,......HC,...L,Sh..........27 (with Sub)
> 2E Boyars.....Irreg..A/B.....HK/HC..L,Sh..........88
> 2E Boyars.....Irreg..A/B.....HK/HC..L,Sh..........88

4 strike units at 1200 is minimal but maybe OK, especially with so
many light troops. These are good value, and should be able to avoid
being shot.

> 6E Viteji.....Irreg...C.......LC....JLS,B,Sh.....109
> 6E Viteji.....Irreg...C.......LC....JLS,B,Sh.....109
> 6E Viteji.....Irreg...C.......LC....JLS,B,Sh.....109

These are expensive LC. I assume that they have to be taken as all
'full-service'? If so, consider making one or two as only 4E, I think.

> 8E Roum.Ft....Irreg...C.......LMI...JLS,Sh........97
> 8E Archers....Irreg...C.......LMI....B.1/2Sh......85
> 8E Archers....Irreg...C.......LMI....B.1/2Sh......85

The archers are I think a liability. If this is a LI/LMI choice, take
them all as LI. The LMI are just going to cause wavers, and are not
as easy for your cav to charge through when the enemy sticks. Irr LMI
are never going to get to shoot at a useful target against competent
opposition.

> 8E Archers....Irreg...C.......LI.....B.1/2Sh......65
> 6E Crossbows..Irreg...C.......LI.....CB...........49

I assume these CB are compulsory, as there is no reason to take them
otherwise. Given that, just stick them out as temptation, probably.
Give them shields if available to minimise rout on contact (read
Mark's treatise on light troops, which I never did get time to comment
on as it deserves).

> 12ERustici....Irreg...D...... LMI...2HCW,B........51

Costing is wrong here somehow. I like the troop type, though I
suspect it will in the end just be a liability as the archers above.
More JLS, Sh LMI, or more LI B, Sh, or more HK would all be more useful.

> 13 units including the small 2E generals units. 63 scouting points
> (I think). A finess army to be sure, but I can add a little punch
> with a Hungarian or Polish ally contingent. However, I thought they
> would be a little too expensive for a 1200 point mini.

I likely agree. Treat this as a cheaper Later Hungarian - all K and
LC as far as possible, with lots of LI B, 1/2 Sh. Take only compusory
LMI. If those LI CB are compulsoryy but optionally LMI, I might
actually ignore both those rules and take them as such - at least that
way they have a chance of having a little more missile impact.

E

[Dave Smith]

Ewan McNay <ewan.mcnay@y...> wrote:
ok. You might consider that irregular knight subgenerals are not
very expensive, and I think that they're good value, so take one or
two more, but not a big deal. (A sub unit costs 104, or only 16
more points than the the Irr A/B units you have, so you could
probably take two subs in the IrrA units if available).


<DS>Thanks, I'll do this, since I will initiate some other changes
that you suggest. I'm coming from a DBx mindset, and generals
are 'very' expensive.

4 strike units at 1200 is minimal but maybe OK, especially with so
many light troops. These are good value, and should be able to
avoid being shot.

<DS> I might add another unit.

These are expensive LC. I assume that they have to be taken as all
'full-service'? If so, consider making one or two as only 4E, I
think.


<DS> The light cav must be taken with B, JLS, Sh. They can fight in
two ranks when charging, etc. [Eastern Huns ]

The archers are I think a liability. If this is a LI/LMI choice,
take them all as LI. The LMI are just going to cause wavers, and
are not as easy for your cav to charge through when the enemy
sticks. Irr LMI are never going to get to shoot at a useful target
against competent opposition.


<DS>They can be taken as LI.


I assume these CB are compulsory, as there is no reason to take them
otherwise. Given that, just stick them out as temptation, probably.
Give them shields if available to minimise rout on contact (read
Mark's treatise on light troops, which I never did get time to
comment on as it deserves).

<DS>Crossbow are not compulsory.

12ERustici....Irreg...D...... LMI...2HCW,B........51

Costing is wrong here somehow. I like the troop type, though I
suspect it will in the end just be a liability as the archers above.
More JLS, Sh LMI, or more LI B, Sh, or more HK would all be more
useful.

<DS> I have the figures for these guys and they are pretty cool. I
can upgrade them to Irreg C, but thought I could park them around
the camp, or on a hill.


I likely agree. Treat this as a cheaper Later Hungarian - all K and
LC as far as possible, with lots of LI B, 1/2 Sh. Take only
compusory LMI. If those LI CB are compulsoryy but optionally LMI, I
might actually ignore both those rules and take them as such - at
least that way they have a chance of having a little more missile
impact.


<DS>Thank you sir. What do you think about a Hungarian ally with
SHK and LC, or Polish ally with the same?

Also I can add a unit of Voynuks with HI, 2HCT, Sh.

Dave

[Ewan McNay]

David Smith wrote:
>
> Ewan McNay <ewan.mcnay@y...> wrote:
> ok. You might consider that irregular knight subgenerals are not
> very expensive, and I think that they're good value, so take one or
> two more, but not a big deal. (A sub unit costs 104, or only 16
> more points than the the Irr A/B units you have, so you could
> probably take two subs in the IrrA units if available).
>
> <DS>Thanks, I'll do this, since I will initiate some other changes
> that you suggest. I'm coming from a DBx mindset, and generals
> are 'very' expensive.

Ah, ok. In Warrior, it depends. Some generals are hideously
expensive - e.g. regular allies. Some are completely free (if riding
elephant). This is closer toward the free end. It's an oddity in the
costing system.

> 4 strike units at 1200 is minimal but maybe OK, especially with so
> many light troops. These are good value, and should be able to
> avoid being shot.
>
> <DS> I might add another unit.

Given your comments below, I think that would be good.

> These are expensive LC. I assume that they have to be taken as all
> 'full-service'? If so, consider making one or two as only 4E, I
> think.
>
> <DS> The light cav must be taken with B, JLS, Sh. They can fight in
> two ranks when charging, etc. [Eastern Huns ]

That latter is good. So, given all the below, probably keep 2 6E and
take one 4E, maybe even a second 4E if points now allow.

> The archers are I think a liability. If this is a LI/LMI choice,
> take them all as LI. The LMI are just going to cause wavers, and
> are not as easy for your cav to charge through when the enemy
> sticks. Irr LMI are never going to get to shoot at a useful target
> against competent opposition.
>
> <DS>They can be taken as LI.

Good! That hugely improves the list, and costs less.

> I assume these CB are compulsory, as there is no reason to take them
> otherwise. Given that, just stick them out as temptation, probably.
> Give them shields if available to minimise rout on contact (read
> Mark's treatise on light troops, which I never did get time to
> comment on as it deserves).
>
> <DS>Crossbow are not compulsory.

Even better! I like this list a whole lot more now. So, delete these
guys completely.

> 12ERustici....Irreg...D...... LMI...2HCW,B........51
>
> Costing is wrong here somehow. I like the troop type, though I
> suspect it will in the end just be a liability as the archers above.
> More JLS, Sh LMI, or more LI B, Sh, or more HK would all be more
> useful.
>
> <DS> I have the figures for these guys and they are pretty cool. I
> can upgrade them to Irreg C, but thought I could park them around
> the camp, or on a hill.

I understand the temptation. My advice is purely from the
evil-tournament-winning perspective, and in that mode it is wrong to
buy guys who *start out* as being perceived needing to be hidden in a
camp or on a steep hill.

> I likely agree. Treat this as a cheaper Later Hungarian - all K and
> LC as far as possible, with lots of LI B, 1/2 Sh. Take only
> compusory LMI. If those LI CB are compulsoryy but optionally LMI, I
> might actually ignore both those rules and take them as such - at
> least that way they have a chance of having a little more missile
> impact.
>
> <DS>Thank you sir. What do you think about a Hungarian ally with
> SHK and LC, or Polish ally with the same?

At 1200, probably not; use the cheap and hard-hitting HK. At 1600,
maybe; I would have to look at the list.

> Also I can add a unit of Voynuks with HI, 2HCT, Sh.

Yes, but you shouldn't .

[Regular HI are hideously overpriced, almost as a blanket rule. In
this army, which is a speed and mobility outfit, the unit would have
no real combined arms role until you achieved real mastery. By all
means, try it both ways, and I think you will see that this becomes a
very expensive unit that at best does little and at worst is a
liability. Eventually, you may be able - and wish - to make it an
anvil unit. But I would advise against it for a long time, if ever.]

E

p.s. I'll take payment for the advice in painted figs, thanks ))

[John Murphy]

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "David Smith" <davidsmith@k...>
wrote:
> generals
> are 'very' expensive.

And in Warrior. But depends. Since the general has a fixed cost and
pays no comand points an Irreg Kn general might be a very good buy,
and often useful for prompting irregulars anyhow. On the other hand,
a Reg LMI general is hideously expensive (replacing a much cheaper
figure and much cheaper command point cost) and since a regular army
does not typically require as many prompt minutes that'd be a
tougher choice.

Guess all that is kind of obvious, though, huh. Well, just thought I
would toss out a comment anyhow.

[joncleaves]

p.s. I'll take payment for the advice in painted figs, thanks ))>>

Jeepers, I hope it is not value-based... you might have to send a few figs
Dave's way....lol




Sorry, Ewan - just could not resist...
Jon

[joncleaves]

Dave, while I generally agree with the other's posts on this force, I have one
part I'd like to throw my $0.02 in on.
Usual caveats that such things are very much style- and experience-based
apply...

<<6E Viteji.....Irreg...C.......LC....JLS,B,Sh.....109
6E Viteji.....Irreg...C.......LC....JLS,B,Sh.....109
6E Viteji.....Irreg...C.......LC....JLS,B,Sh.....109>>

Ok, these are just about the best LC you can buy. But while I agree with Ewan
that perhaps the investment in them is too high, I think it is higher than he
does.

A 6E Irr J/B/Sh can kill a 4E Reg LC B unit, hands down. Unfortunately, that 4E
LC B unit can shoot the 6E for 2 and make them waver or recall. If the 6E does
not shoot back it takes 6E of LC B to make them reliably recall, but then, what
was that 2pt B for on the Irregs?

You don't need J or Sh to kill reg LC B if you are Irreg, let alone 1.5 ranks.
So before you commit all those points to a lot of 'overkill' LC, I would suggest
taking a look at what they will be used for. I see a guy take that much
full-service LC and I see a lot of points that probably won't be doing what he'd
like them to be doing...

You might want to look at one full-service at most and some smaller, cheaper
stuff to split fire on the other guy's LC and not permit him to shoot you away.
This doesn't change the fact that you have more than enough killing power to
nail 90% of the LC out there, but it will free up some points for other things.

Jon

p.s. this advice is free, because that is more than it's worth...lol

[Ewan McNay]

Jon, as should be obvious by now I really don't care; but you do seem
to have had a few days of being rude, grumpy, and aggressive. Take
some time away from this, perhaps? You're not doing any favours at
the moment.

E

JonCleaves@... wrote:

> p.s. I'll take payment for the advice in painted figs, thanks ))>>
>
> Jeepers, I hope it is not value-based... you might have to send a few figs
Dave's way....lol
>
>
>
>
> Sorry, Ewan - just could not resist...
> Jon
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[joncleaves]

Jon, as should be obvious by now I really don't care; but you do seem
to have had a few days of being rude, grumpy, and aggressive. Take
some time away from this, perhaps? You're not doing any favours at
the moment.

E>>

Geez, Ewan. It was just a joke - no more 'rude' than the joke that your advice
is worth a Dave Smith painted figure...lol

Now, aggressive...? Yes. Guilty!

Jon

[Kelly Wilkinson]

Dave,

You need to go to the Four Horsemen website and check out the errata for
that list. I believe that the Rustici can only have one weapon. Here is the site
though. . .
http://www.fourhorsemenenterprises.com/

Additonally, I would take the Rusticci as Ireg E's. here's why. . . I like
to put them in middle of my lines like holding out a big piece of cheese cake
for my opponents to kill with their knights. If you work it right and block the
rout path of these E's enough to allow a 120 pace gap angling them in front of
your Knights (who are patiently waiting to waylay the unfortunate knights who
are killing your bait), you can usually charge your prey in the flank. Barring
that, you can charge through your routing E's catching the enemy knights/cav
flat footed and butcher them at your leisure. This tactic doesn't always work,
but it will keep your opponent guessing as to the moral of this troop type. ;)


kelly - Sneaky Pete

Ewan McNay <ewan.mcnay@...> wrote:


David Smith wrote:
>
> Ewan McNay <ewan.mcnay@y...> wrote:
> ok. You might consider that irregular knight subgenerals are not
> very expensive, and I think that they're good value, so take one or
> two more, but not a big deal. (A sub unit costs 104, or only 16
> more points than the the Irr A/B units you have, so you could
> probably take two subs in the IrrA units if available).
>
> <DS>Thanks, I'll do this, since I will initiate some other changes
> that you suggest. I'm coming from a DBx mindset, and generals
> are 'very' expensive.

Ah, ok. In Warrior, it depends. Some generals are hideously
expensive - e.g. regular allies. Some are completely free (if riding
elephant). This is closer toward the free end. It's an oddity in the
costing system.

> 4 strike units at 1200 is minimal but maybe OK, especially with so
> many light troops. These are good value, and should be able to
> avoid being shot.
>
> <DS> I might add another unit.

Given your comments below, I think that would be good.

> These are expensive LC. I assume that they have to be taken as all
> 'full-service'? If so, consider making one or two as only 4E, I
> think.
>
> <DS> The light cav must be taken with B, JLS, Sh. They can fight in
> two ranks when charging, etc. [Eastern Huns ]

That latter is good. So, given all the below, probably keep 2 6E and
take one 4E, maybe even a second 4E if points now allow.

> The archers are I think a liability. If this is a LI/LMI choice,
> take them all as LI. The LMI are just going to cause wavers, and
> are not as easy for your cav to charge through when the enemy
> sticks. Irr LMI are never going to get to shoot at a useful target
> against competent opposition.
>
> <DS>They can be taken as LI.

Good! That hugely improves the list, and costs less.

> I assume these CB are compulsory, as there is no reason to take them
> otherwise. Given that, just stick them out as temptation, probably.
> Give them shields if available to minimise rout on contact (read
> Mark's treatise on light troops, which I never did get time to
> comment on as it deserves).
>
> <DS>Crossbow are not compulsory.

Even better! I like this list a whole lot more now. So, delete these
guys completely.

> 12ERustici....Irreg...D...... LMI...2HCW,B........51
>
> Costing is wrong here somehow. I like the troop type, though I
> suspect it will in the end just be a liability as the archers above.
> More JLS, Sh LMI, or more LI B, Sh, or more HK would all be more
> useful.
>
> <DS> I have the figures for these guys and they are pretty cool. I
> can upgrade them to Irreg C, but thought I could park them around
> the camp, or on a hill.

I understand the temptation. My advice is purely from the
evil-tournament-winning perspective, and in that mode it is wrong to
buy guys who *start out* as being perceived needing to be hidden in a
camp or on a steep hill.

> I likely agree. Treat this as a cheaper Later Hungarian - all K and
> LC as far as possible, with lots of LI B, 1/2 Sh. Take only
> compusory LMI. If those LI CB are compulsoryy but optionally LMI, I
> might actually ignore both those rules and take them as such - at
> least that way they have a chance of having a little more missile
> impact.
>
> <DS>Thank you sir. What do you think about a Hungarian ally with
> SHK and LC, or Polish ally with the same?

At 1200, probably not; use the cheap and hard-hitting HK. At 1600,
maybe; I would have to look at the list.

> Also I can add a unit of Voynuks with HI, 2HCT, Sh.

Yes, but you shouldn't .

[Regular HI are hideously overpriced, almost as a blanket rule. In
this army, which is a speed and mobility outfit, the unit would have
no real combined arms role until you achieved real mastery. By all
means, try it both ways, and I think you will see that this becomes a
very expensive unit that at best does little and at worst is a
liability. Eventually, you may be able - and wish - to make it an
anvil unit. But I would advise against it for a long time, if ever.]

E

p.s. I'll take payment for the advice in painted figs, thanks ))



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[Kelly Wilkinson]

Speaking of figures Greg. . . ?!

kelly

JonCleaves@... wrote:
p.s. I'll take payment for the advice in painted figs, thanks ))>>

Jeepers, I hope it is not value-based... you might have to send a few figs
Dave's way....lol




Sorry, Ewan - just could not resist...
Jon


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[Todd Schneider]

Dave,

Being unfamiliar with the DB(X) nomenclature and Army
composistion (as my one feeble attempt months ago can
attest to), and unfamiliar with you playing days of
old, I have to ask: Do the Troops and variety offered
in the Wallachian list neet your style of play, or are
you playing them to challenge yourself and others?

That being said, here's what I would do, keeping in
mind I do not prefer a lot of mounted and am somewhat
ambivalent about large amount of LI in my Own
Armies...

CinC w/ Boyar 2E Irr B HK, L, Sh @ 170
Sub Gen w Boyar 2E Irr B HK, L, Sh @ 110
2E Boyars 1/2 Irr A, 1/2 Irr B HK L, Sh @ 94
2E Boyars 1/2 Irr A, 1/2 Irr B HK L, Sh @ 94
2E Boyars 1/2 Irr A, 1/2 Irr B HK L, Sh @ 94
6E Viteji Irr C LC JLS, B, Sh @ 109
4E Viteji Irr C LC JLS, B, Sh @ 81
2E Viteji Irr C LC JLS, B, Sh @ 53
2E Viteji Irr C LC JLS, B, Sh @ 53
6E Roumanian Foot Irr C LMI JLS, Sh @ 79
6E Roumanian Foot Irr C LMI JLS, Sh @ 79
6E Roumanian Bowmen Irr C LI B, Sh @61
6E Roumanian Bowmen Irr C LI B, Sh @61
6E Roumanian CrossBowmen Irr C LI CB @49


Thats 1187 points. You could drop one of the 6E Foot
units and add another Boayr Unit, which would bring it
to 1202 points.
14 Units. Up to two commands. 51 Scouting Points.

I purposely did not upgrade the CinC and SubGen to Irr
A because better players can induce them to charge,
and I don't think Generals should be charging unless
they have to. Thats just a stylistic point. I did
upgrade all the Mounted to HK, becuase against many
Shooting armies, and in some combat, you will end up
being disordered and having to charge, and in most
cases, your better off fighting as disordered HK than
you are disordered HC. Your also slightly more
resilient to B, which if your facing a guy like me (Or
Mattt Johnson locally) is a good thing :-)

The Viteji are taken so they can split fire and still
be effective. I am not as proficient at that as I
would like to be, but playing Jon and Matt Locally
have shown me that 2 or three small units working
together can often mitigate the effects of your
opponents shooting, ecpsecially when some or all of
your units do not have to fire back in return and
therefore count shielded. However, the problem I have
seen (and had inflicted on me more than once) is the
2E LC units can often get in the way, and if caught
and broken can be the cause of several wavers.

I favor 6E foot units in usually 2x3 formation. That
way they count as 20 figs for CPF purposes, and are a
bit more resilient in combat. Also, if neccessary,
they can expand to count 32. I took only Loose order
or open order troops, because I agree with Ewan in
that while the Voynuks are ok Close order troops to
have, unless you force march them (which I am not sure
is a good thing, not having force marched Irr troops
ever, I's defiantely talk to more people on this), it
will take longer for them to get into combat. Also
taking everything Loose order means you will be less
affected by your enemies (and your own) terrain. One
of those Foot units in Brush should be able to
withstand at least one charge, allowing you to
countercharge the next turn with one of your Boyar
Units. Either that, or you charge in with one of your
knight units to pin and hold an enemy, and the foot
charge in the next turn to finish them off...
I stayed away from the Rustici, because unshielded
LMI, even if they are Irr E or D, are just a shooting
magnet and IMO pretty easily neutralized. To me, even
if you buy tham and stick them on a hill, as your
opponent if I can ignore them I will.

Kelley Wilkenson is running Wallachians for our local
team tournament, you might want to get a hold of him
and see how he's choosing to run it.

If youd like to get some practice games in let me
know, I only have 15's right now but I can always use
the games.

See ya around,
Todd

[Dave Smith]

Todd;


Thanks for the thoughtful/insiteful feedback. In 6th/TOG, I fancied
myself a classical player (Romans/Greeks, etc.). However, I did win
the Norbert Gisclair in 1984 with Anglo-Danes!

I am finishing up the EIR in 25mm, which was more of a labor of
love, since they are dog-meat in a lot of rules systems. I wanted
something totally different from the EIR, that met 3 conditions.
First, I needed to be inspired by the history/characters; Second,
appealing miniatures were available in 25mm; Lastly, I would prefer
that it wasn't a roadkill army, but offered me an opportunity to be
somewhat competitive. That said, I know an army list won't win you
a thing.

Dave


--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, Todd Schneider
<thresh1642@s...> wrote:
> Dave,
>
> Being unfamiliar with the DB(X) nomenclature and Army
> composistion (as my one feeble attempt months ago can
> attest to), and unfamiliar with you playing days of
> old, I have to ask: Do the Troops and variety offered
> in the Wallachian list neet your style of play, or are
> you playing them to challenge yourself and others?
>
> That being said, here's what I would do, keeping in
> mind I do not prefer a lot of mounted and am somewhat
> ambivalent about large amount of LI in my Own
> Armies...
>
> CinC w/ Boyar 2E Irr B HK, L, Sh @ 170
> Sub Gen w Boyar 2E Irr B HK, L, Sh @ 110
> 2E Boyars 1/2 Irr A, 1/2 Irr B HK L, Sh @ 94
> 2E Boyars 1/2 Irr A, 1/2 Irr B HK L, Sh @ 94
> 2E Boyars 1/2 Irr A, 1/2 Irr B HK L, Sh @ 94
> 6E Viteji Irr C LC JLS, B, Sh @ 109
> 4E Viteji Irr C LC JLS, B, Sh @ 81
> 2E Viteji Irr C LC JLS, B, Sh @ 53
> 2E Viteji Irr C LC JLS, B, Sh @ 53
> 6E Roumanian Foot Irr C LMI JLS, Sh @ 79
> 6E Roumanian Foot Irr C LMI JLS, Sh @ 79
> 6E Roumanian Bowmen Irr C LI B, Sh @61
> 6E Roumanian Bowmen Irr C LI B, Sh @61
> 6E Roumanian CrossBowmen Irr C LI CB @49
>
>
> Thats 1187 points. You could drop one of the 6E Foot
> units and add another Boayr Unit, which would bring it
> to 1202 points.
> 14 Units. Up to two commands. 51 Scouting Points.
>
> I purposely did not upgrade the CinC and SubGen to Irr
> A because better players can induce them to charge,
> and I don't think Generals should be charging unless
> they have to. Thats just a stylistic point. I did
> upgrade all the Mounted to HK, becuase against many
> Shooting armies, and in some combat, you will end up
> being disordered and having to charge, and in most
> cases, your better off fighting as disordered HK than
> you are disordered HC. Your also slightly more
> resilient to B, which if your facing a guy like me (Or
> Mattt Johnson locally) is a good thing
>
> The Viteji are taken so they can split fire and still
> be effective. I am not as proficient at that as I
> would like to be, but playing Jon and Matt Locally
> have shown me that 2 or three small units working
> together can often mitigate the effects of your
> opponents shooting, ecpsecially when some or all of
> your units do not have to fire back in return and
> therefore count shielded. However, the problem I have
> seen (and had inflicted on me more than once) is the
> 2E LC units can often get in the way, and if caught
> and broken can be the cause of several wavers.
>
> I favor 6E foot units in usually 2x3 formation. That
> way they count as 20 figs for CPF purposes, and are a
> bit more resilient in combat. Also, if neccessary,
> they can expand to count 32. I took only Loose order
> or open order troops, because I agree with Ewan in
> that while the Voynuks are ok Close order troops to
> have, unless you force march them (which I am not sure
> is a good thing, not having force marched Irr troops
> ever, I's defiantely talk to more people on this), it
> will take longer for them to get into combat. Also
> taking everything Loose order means you will be less
> affected by your enemies (and your own) terrain. One
> of those Foot units in Brush should be able to
> withstand at least one charge, allowing you to
> countercharge the next turn with one of your Boyar
> Units. Either that, or you charge in with one of your
> knight units to pin and hold an enemy, and the foot
> charge in the next turn to finish them off...
> I stayed away from the Rustici, because unshielded
> LMI, even if they are Irr E or D, are just a shooting
> magnet and IMO pretty easily neutralized. To me, even
> if you buy tham and stick them on a hill, as your
> opponent if I can ignore them I will.
>
> Kelley Wilkenson is running Wallachians for our local
> team tournament, you might want to get a hold of him
> and see how he's choosing to run it.
>
> If youd like to get some practice games in let me
> know, I only have 15's right now but I can always use
> the games.
>
> See ya around,
> Todd

[Dave Smith]

Jon;

Very good points. I hadn't thought about the LC like that, but no
sense in killing a fly with a sledgehammer! Thanks.

Dave


--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, JonCleaves@a... wrote:
> Dave, while I generally agree with the other's posts on this
force, I have one part I'd like to throw my $0.02 in on.
> Usual caveats that such things are very much style- and experience-
based apply...
>
> <<6E Viteji.....Irreg...C.......LC....JLS,B,Sh.....109
> 6E Viteji.....Irreg...C.......LC....JLS,B,Sh.....109
> 6E Viteji.....Irreg...C.......LC....JLS,B,Sh.....109>>
>
> Ok, these are just about the best LC you can buy. But while I
agree with Ewan that perhaps the investment in them is too high, I
think it is higher than he does.
>
> A 6E Irr J/B/Sh can kill a 4E Reg LC B unit, hands down.
Unfortunately, that 4E LC B unit can shoot the 6E for 2 and make
them waver or recall. If the 6E does not shoot back it takes 6E of
LC B to make them reliably recall, but then, what was that 2pt B for
on the Irregs?
>
> You don't need J or Sh to kill reg LC B if you are Irreg, let
alone 1.5 ranks. So before you commit all those points to a lot
of 'overkill' LC, I would suggest taking a look at what they will be
used for. I see a guy take that much full-service LC and I see a
lot of points that probably won't be doing what he'd like them to be
doing...
>
> You might want to look at one full-service at most and some
smaller, cheaper stuff to split fire on the other guy's LC and not
permit him to shoot you away. This doesn't change the fact that you
have more than enough killing power to nail 90% of the LC out there,
but it will free up some points for other things.
>
> Jon
>
> p.s. this advice is free, because that is more than it's
worth...lol

[Dave Smith]

Ewan McNay <ewan.mcnay@y...> wrote:

p.s. I'll take payment for the advice in painted figs, thanks ))


****You flatter me sir.

D