Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[joncleaves]

Greg
We will put in the rules that a base may be DEEPER than noted to accomodate
figures as long as it is played as the standard depth.

Not changing width in any way. Stagger those MI!

Jon

[Chris Bump]

Greg,

I know that some do not fit, but most manufacturers do fit. Those that do
not, I've found some Old Glory to have some large bases on the horses, but
some clipping and cutting of the bases has resolved that. To change now
would involve everyone else re-basing their armies. Serious?

Chris

[Greg Regets]

Probably another last minute thing that would be tough to change and might
be a very unpopular decision, but what about making the 25mm Cavalry base
deeper, so that the occasional cavalry figure fits. As I'm sure the old time
25mm guys know, most cavalry just doesn't fit depth wise.

Some might think the initial inconvience is worth the effort.

Greg

[Greg Regets]

An excellent compromise. I really have only had a problem with the depth of
cavalry. I would imagine SHC are a nightmare though.

G

-----Original Message-----
From: JonCleaves@... [mailto:JonCleaves@...]
Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2001 9:12 AM
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] 25mm Cavalry Bases


Greg
We will put in the rules that a base may be DEEPER than noted to accomodate
figures as long as it is played as the standard depth.

Not changing width in any way. Stagger those MI!

Jon

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[Chris Bump]

Jon,

I am somewhat confused. Are you saying that a deeper base will be allowed
than say 30mm but that same base will still be counted as 30mm for issues of
movement or number of bases that can be aligned against it in combat? That
seems to be a potential for consternation later. IF a base is say 40mm deep
and only counted as 30mm deep, from where do you measure when trying to deal
with minimum or maximum distances.

Example: If an opponent is approaching an overbased (40mm deep as opposed to
30mm) unit from the rear, does that same opponent still stop 40mm from the
rear of the overbased unit's rear base edge, or does he advance to within
30mm because the last 10mm of base are really not there?

Can you see the obvious disparities with a unit in column doing an about face
and gaining distance? Depth is at least as important in this game width.
Elephants/ Chariots and Artillery are allowed extra depth, but that depth is
counted as it is represented on the table.

It seems to me that an oversized base must be played exactly as it is
represented on the table.

Perhaps I misunderstood your intent.

Chris

[joncleaves]

Well, off the cuff I will always choose in favor of helping the player play. My
off the cuff answer was designed to help out a guy whose horse were a little big
rather than choose to make him suffer just to make it harder for other guys to
be dicks.

I think that when I get around to it, I could write a 'rule' fairly quickly that
makes it clear what the intent is for helping a guy with big figures. If I
can't, I won't.

The intent is that a guy with big figures (and they are getting bigger all the
time) gets a little relief but is not allowed to get a big in-game benefit to
nonstandard basing.
I'm certainly not going to write ten paragraphs on this one.

I would say, though, that if an opponent can't work around this issue simply
using "played as though standard depths" or whatever I come up with that's
similar, it would be okay with me if that player didn't play Warrior.

Quit cha-bitching:), just go deeper. Yes, if the unit turns away for what ever reason you might be closer but if you have get you SHC out of a bad spot your already in so much trouble it won't matter, the extra depth won't hurt much. You will find yourself riding alone in a field with the sun on your back, don't worry your already dead. :)

[Chris Bump]

Greg,

I doubt anyone questions your sincerity or intentions. But how would you
deal with larger bases? I would argue for decreasing the number of figures
on the stand as they are simply eye candy, especially Greg's figures. SHC
figures are easily discernible from EHC when properly represented. Place 3
figures on the stand and declare through out the game that they are in fact
SHC and are truly 4 per base.

Otherwise I really do not see how a larger base can be played as anything but
what it is. I am not saying don't use a larger base, but rather if you have
a larger base, it is what it is to your advantage and disadvantage equally.

Chris

[joncleaves]

No sweat Greg.
I will do everything I can to make basing as easy as possible.
I will vote to expel from tournaments any player who tries to use that for some
game advantage.

Jon

Chris, all anyone needs to do is go deeper. There are only two types of troops that may require extra depth, SHC and artillery. I have found that true even in 15 mm. I could be wrong but going deeper only is a disadvantage to that troop types player.

[Chris Bump]

Jon,

Are we getting a little testee? The number of problems that can arise seem
almost insurmountable. How will you deal with a unit in line who makes a
facing movement but because of longer/ deeper bases cannot fit in a defile or
between other units where the same unit would fit with standard bases. Is
the player to set aside an element or two (depending on the size of the
particular unit)? What will be the mechanics of maneuver with larger bases?
Will an opponent be required to be able to reach the unit plus what ever
distance the delta is? How will you delineate the rear corner of the element
for issues of shoulders? A unit of 4 40 mm bases is a full 40mm deeper in
column than the same unit with 30mm bases. It is not unlike the rules on
front edge of a unit leaving disordering terrain and the rear element leaving
the same terrain. How will you manage the 40mm no one can get closer than.
I dare not tell you that the game is all about angles and distances,
but............

Remember what Don said, that as you write these rules you need to forget what
you know and write the rules to the lowest commont denominator. Simply
because you can figure out an add-hoc solution to what ever event may occur
with oversized bases does not mean that the new player without your
experience nor even tolerance can figure that out.

I am not saying don't allow it. I am saying keep it simple and play it for
what it is. Not all elephant, chariot and artillery bases are the same size
( I suspect because when Phil wrote the rules models varied in size) and are
simply played as they are. I am only saying KISS and in the event a larger
base is needed, play it as such for both the good and bad. Hell, no army in
history had identical sized formations with any other army (obvious
exaggeration, but you get the point).

Chris

[Chris Bump]

Dave,

Read my responses in full. I am not saying disallow it. I am saying just
play it for exactly what it is. If the base is 35 mm deep then it should be
played as such not as an imagined 30 mm depth. I think you and I are arguing
the same side here.

Chris

[Greg Regets]

Just to add to this conversation (since I started it, haha) I think players
should try to comply with the 30mm depth as much as they can, but with some
figures you just can't. In the army I'm doing, a larger depth will only be
needed for a few units. I'm using Old Glory SHC and they will not fit side
to side without staggering (they aren't even close as a matter of fact), and
the 30mm depth does not allow any room for stagger. I think we are talking
about four stands in the whole army.

G

-----Original Message-----
From: cncbump@... [mailto:cncbump@...]
Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2001 2:27 PM
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] 25mm Cavalry Bases


Jon,

I am somewhat confused. Are you saying that a deeper base will be allowed
than say 30mm but that same base will still be counted as 30mm for issues of

movement or number of bases that can be aligned against it in combat? That
seems to be a potential for consternation later. IF a base is say 40mm deep

and only counted as 30mm deep, from where do you measure when trying to
deal
with minimum or maximum distances.

Example: If an opponent is approaching an overbased (40mm deep as opposed
to
30mm) unit from the rear, does that same opponent still stop 40mm from the
rear of the overbased unit's rear base edge, or does he advance to within
30mm because the last 10mm of base are really not there?

Can you see the obvious disparities with a unit in column doing an about
face
and gaining distance? Depth is at least as important in this game width.
Elephants/ Chariots and Artillery are allowed extra depth, but that depth is

counted as it is represented on the table.

It seems to me that an oversized base must be played exactly as it is
represented on the table.

Perhaps I misunderstood your intent.

Chris

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[joncleaves]

Chris
We do it all the time. Simple standard. Play them as is except for the
really extreme cases where it tactically benefits the owner. In those,
briefly substitute the correct size bases or mark the position of where they
'should' be.

Just give me a chance to write the actual 'rule' first. AAl I am talking
about at this point is philosophy: don't make basing issues a burden on the
modeler.

Jon

[Greg Regets]

First, I do not intend to let anyone get behind me ~laughing~

But more to the point, I would tell my opponent as we were declaring troop
types that my bases for the two units in question were a bit long, and why
... probably with a few four letter complements to the figure manufacturer
... and have a back rank 20mm depth base (assuming I lengthened the front
rank to 40mm) ready to replace the back rank of figures for measuring
purposes, if it became an issue.

Greg