Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[Tom McMillan]

As the Swiss seem to be the topic of the day, having a longstanding
interest in the subject and armies in 15 and 25 I have to ask the most
basic question- what is the formation intended in the rules for Swiss
units? I'm having a little difficulty puzzling through units 1/2-2/3
pike, the rest halberd, with even ranks. Thanks, Tom

[Ed Forbes]

-- Quahog25@... wrote:

> As the Swiss seem to be the topic of the day, having a longstanding
interest in the subject and armies in 15 and 25 I have to ask the most
basic question- what is the formation intended in the rules for Swiss
units? I'm having a little difficulty puzzling through units 1/2-2/3
pike, the rest halberd, with even ranks.
Thanks, Tom

--
One way I base my Swiss is 2 pike & 1 2HCT for 2/3 pike & 1/3 2HCT.

another is for 2 pike and 2 2HCT for 1/2 and 1/2.

I tend to take small units which brings its own problems, but gives lots of
maneuver units.

With the Swiss list rules, 1/2 and 1/2 seem to work well. You have the option
to take a charge counting 2 ranks of pike or 2 ranks of 2HCT, counting 12 per
CPF. If facing irr loose HTW, you maneuver to take the charge with 2 ranks of
2HCT, otherwise the odds are you break on contact. Most all others you take and
receive charges with the 2 ranks of pike. If you win you expand to both flanks
with the 2HCT, counting steady at first contact. If you lose, you only recoil
against mounted, but in all cases one of the 2HCT replaces the front rank pike
in contact, again counting steady at first contact. Mounted that win only count
+1 for following up as the foot they recoiled are not now disorded foot.

I now think I will take a mix of 4 and 3 stand units. Lead with the 4 stand
units and follow with the 3 stand units.

My outcomes with French Ordinance taking a large Swiss ally contingent using
only 3 stand units tend to be 1:1 draws, 4:1 wins, or 1:4 losses.

I have yet to play a fully Swiss army, but will probably try it out in the
future.

Ed






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[joncleaves]

Tom, I take them in 6E blocks with 2E of 2HCT and the rest pike.

J

-----Original Message-----
From: Quahog25@...
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, 02 Apr 2005 07:39:52 -0500
Subject: [WarriorRules] Another Swiss question




As the Swiss seem to be the topic of the day, having a longstanding
interest in the subject and armies in 15 and 25 I have to ask the most
basic question- what is the formation intended in the rules for Swiss
units? I'm having a little difficulty puzzling through units 1/2-2/3
pike, the rest halberd, with even ranks. Thanks, Tom



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Tom McMillan]

>>>>One way I base my Swiss is 2 pike & 1 2HCT for 2/3 pike & 1/3 2HCT.

another is for 2 pike and 2 2HCT for 1/2 and 1/2.>>>


Ack!!
Er, I mean... Well..... Interesting.
Seriously, thanks for your advice on this. its just that since
Swiss pike formations were easily twice as deep as Macedonians, for
example, requiring them to fight half as deep does indeed raise the
eyebrow.
Just one more example that it is really difficult to simulate the
Swiss. We know those halberds were there, but what did they DO,
exactly? Other rule sets let them wander off and guard flanks and such
independent of their pike formations, which works quite well except for
the little fact that they almost certainly didnt do that.
We also know that during the Swabian and Italian wars, vs opposing
pike, the halberds moved to the front once the 'push of pike' bogged
down. The problem with that is that in our Ancients era there WAS no
enemy pike, and nothing capable of 'bogging down' Swiss pike frontally,
except perhaps the occasional body of dimounted SHK. This seems to be
the intended Warrior maneuver, but in this era there was no need for
it. The landsknechts were created simply because nothing short of
opposing pike would do.
Add to this that in the three major confrontaitons of the
Burgundian wars- Grandson, Morat, and Nancy, the Swiss formed up on
steep, rocky, thickly wooded hills, then charged out to attack the
enemy flank (ok, that's a bit of a stretch for Grandson), and you
wonder how a pike army could possible simulate that.
Consider Nancy in particular. Charles the Bold, now outnumbered and
demoralised, sets up across a road facing a defile through a pass in a
nasty ridgeline, hoping to blast the Swiss with artillery as they
emerge. So the Swiss leave a body of crossbowmen as their center, and
send the Vorhut and Nachhut on flanking maneuvers , over a wooded,
steep, rocky ridge, in a freakin' snowstrorm!, and achieve a classic
double envelopment.
The question being what troops did this? As this was at the very end
of the Burgundian wars, surely the army by now was at least 75% pike.
They couldn't have been left behind to watch the halberds, it must have
been a combined force. For this army to work, you need almost as many
List Rule exceptions as regular rules.
I feel a Reiter article coming on- must.... resist .....
temptation..... - Tom