Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[Ewan McNay]

It's been my experience that army choices tend to run in cycles -
knights are king, so everyone brings elephants, so everyone brings
Romans/bows, so everyone brings knights..

..and I wondered where people think we are in this cycle. I have seen
a lot of commentary about missile-armed foot recently, which (i) makes
me wonder whether we will see massed reg LMI missile foot in the NICT,
and (ii) what people would bring as their weapons/troops of choice to
deal with this? Or do others have a different perspective on the
cycle state?

Also, now that it's too late, I took a look at the NASAMW Vijayanagara
list, and I think that was clearly the 'right' answer as to what to
take for the NICT. Good elephants supported by a mass of regular
loose foot that can be part LHI, and is not too expensive - the curse
of Khmers - as wel as decent reg LI JLS, Sh and some Indian Reg EHC
lancers just in case. Only two downsides, really: the LMI B are
shieldless (which others worry about more than I, I confess), and I
would have had to pretend to be Indian with Khmer figures, which would
have aound up Scott. Wait, maybe that's an upside... ;)

Seriously, this looks to be maybe the best of the several
'elephants-plus-reg loose foot' lists going - thoughts from others?

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 7/17/2003 8:19:59 AM Eastern Standard Time,
ewan.mcnay@... writes:


<<It's been my experience that army choices tend to run in cycles - knights are
king, so everyone brings elephants, so everyone brings Romans/bows, so everyone
brings knights..>>

>....[reference Kingdom of V army..] Seriously, this looks to be maybe the best
of the several 'elephants-plus-reg loose foot' lists going - thoughts from
others?>>

I agree with your assessment of cycles, Ewan. But I'd add it is more subtly a
cycle of 'support troops' than a cycle of armies.
Given that we have not all broken the code on how to fight an all or mostly
mounted force, I'd (Lord forgive me) break the 'categories' of armies at the
NICT into: knights, elephants, barbarian foot, and missile foot. The question
of which to be, besides being driven much more by a player's 'style' than other
issues discussed here to my mind, is also driven by the type of support troops
that go with the main category just listed. What do you want to have with your
elephants? Well, what kills elephants? JLS armed foot of good morale, for
example. What kills *them*? *That's* the higher order question that also
decides which list to choose. Kingdom of V armies come with excellent support
troops to cover elephant 'vulnerabilities', so I think Ewan has correctly
idenitified them as a major contender.

I'd add, though, that Kingdom of V (or any other army) in the hands of someone
who is uncomfortable with it (or is a beginner) is far, far less of a concern
than any army in the hands of someone who is a good tactictian (as opposed to a
'rules marginalist') and/or who is extremely comfortable with it. If I know my
army inside and out and know how it matches up in most/all situations, I am
thinking about tactics while my opponent is counting factors on the combat chart
and trying to figure out how many march segments camels get. I am inside his
decisions at that point and that is a greater advantage than any given by troop
matchup. In my opinion anyway.

Jon

Gentlemen,

There is nothing that is greater fun than the CAV Dance!

Remember "If you ain't CAV, you ain't," (the abridged version for you of
faint heart).

Jamie Gentry
Outrider 6


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

My understanding of this cycle is fairly on par with both of your posts.
However, I've found that the greatest contributing factor is knowing your own
army's potential against all kinds of opponants. While anticipating enemy
formations is key, I feel that it is better addressed in understanding what can
be done about it with what you have and are comfortable with. One great
detractor to cyclic thinking is that one can get into constantly trying to
anticipate where in the cycle everyone is. Everyone else is also doing this, so
the cycle does not necessarily follow the logic stream noted by Ewan. Often it
skips and/or backs up. Everyone does El, for example, and everyone realizes
that El killing LMI are next, so they all skip ahead and bring SHK to the next
tournament anticipating a flood of LMI. Now all cyclical bets are off as the
cycle has been redirected. IMO the smart player is the one that ignores the
cycle completely and develops tactics and strategems based upon METT-T
from game to game with the same army. Learning to adapt a force to varying
situations, developing an army capable of acheiving localized success with a
portion of the force in key areas, and of course having to roll the dice only
when necessary--these seem to me key elements to consistent success.



Lord of the Meadehall of men! Aknowledged professional sack lounger. Creator
of semi-lifeforms in their millions. The good looking twin, though sinister in
thought and deed. He who would produce but for 7 years of inactivity punctuated
by frenzied finger touching. Smooth.

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 7/17/2003 9:44:55 AM Eastern Standard Time,
spocksleftball@... writes:

> . IMO the smart player is the one that ignores the cycle completely and
develops tactics and strategems based upon
> METT-T
> from game to game with the same army.>>

Far stranger than Ewan or Greg and I agreeing is me agreeing with Boyd....

But I sure do here.

J

[Greg Regets]

I agree with the army cycle point of view, and see it even on the
local level to a very great extent. It entends past the choice of
armies, right down into the things a person is buying on a specific
list.

What I don't understand is why more players don't create lists with
greater balance, to ameliorate the advantage of the guy on the cycle
that hurts you the most. Then again, I probably don't understand it
because I never ride the cycle. I have been playing the same army
exclusively for almost six years now, and played my last army about
the same amount of time.

Good topic though ... Greg

P.S. I couldn't help notice that when Jon sent a few army lists to a
new player here in San Antonio, his list was almost exactly like the
one he and I created ... and Jon says we rarely agree. ;-)

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 7/17/2003 11:20:07 AM Eastern Standard Time, gar@...
writes:

> P.S. I couldn't help notice that when Jon sent a few army lists to a new
player here in San Antonio, his list was almost exactly like the one he and I
created ... and Jon says we rarely agree. >>

Greg, Boyd and Ewan all agreeing with me in the same day...

Maybe the heavens *will* fall.

My theory is to take one army and just keep playing it until; it is second
nature. Trouble is, the NICT is in 25mm and all the guys here are 15mm
players... Which means I have to have Han in two scales (which I do..) and to
play on 5'x3.5' tables in 15mm...lol

J

[Eric Turner]

Some of us have used the same army (or type) for many years. Jon has
made my art far less effective by removing my gunboat-ships (it was a
loophole in the rules) and not being able to double base light
boltshooters. Still waiting for scott to allow a list to double them
up. But I still like running the Yaun. Tim Brown WILL most likely
show up with alot of elephants in tow. Tim Grimmet and Jon will run
the Han mostly.

It is like dancing. Some can do all, like Dave S & M. and Ewan will
win with any army, no Author Murray school of dance for them. Some
have a couple of steps down so, they change between 2 or 3 armies.
And then there is me, I know the two step. I works for me. So it
takes a decade to learn a new step/army. Cycles are the guys who know
all the steps. For the rest of us, the more beer you drink the step
you will try but it is not pretty.

Eric Three beers to the dance floor turner


--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "ewanmcnay" <ewan.mcnay@y...>
wrote:
> It's been my experience that army choices tend to run in cycles -
> knights are king, so everyone brings elephants, so everyone brings
> Romans/bows, so everyone brings knights..
>
> ..and I wondered where people think we are in this cycle. I have
seen
> a lot of commentary about missile-armed foot recently, which (i)
makes
> me wonder whether we will see massed reg LMI missile foot in the
NICT,
> and (ii) what people would bring as their weapons/troops of choice
to
> deal with this? Or do others have a different perspective on the
> cycle state?
>
> Also, now that it's too late, I took a look at the NASAMW
Vijayanagara
> list, and I think that was clearly the 'right' answer as to what to
> take for the NICT. Good elephants supported by a mass of regular
> loose foot that can be part LHI, and is not too expensive - the
curse
> of Khmers - as wel as decent reg LI JLS, Sh and some Indian Reg EHC
> lancers just in case. Only two downsides, really: the LMI B are
> shieldless (which others worry about more than I, I confess), and I
> would have had to pretend to be Indian with Khmer figures, which
would
> have aound up Scott. Wait, maybe that's an upside...
>
> Seriously, this looks to be maybe the best of the several
> 'elephants-plus-reg loose foot' lists going - thoughts from others?

[Tim Brown]

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "wdknee88" <eturner@c...> wrote:
> Some of us have used the same army (or type) for many years.

"Tim Brown WILL most likely
show up with alot of elephants in tow."


Come'on, Eric. 15 elephants isn't 'alot', is it? Nice to know I made
an impression. Now, if I can just prevent you from getting that
damned woods smack in the middle of the table you're toast. Come to
think of it, that's a perfect example of applying all these great
theories being preached in the last few posts - Know your enemy (
both the list AND the person) and apply the terrain against him.
Granted, Eric needed a six to screw me good on terrain placement, but
hey, he got it and deserved credit for making my life miserable. The
72 MI PA LTS, Bow chaps didn't hurt either. *grin*
Hmmm...Mantlets...can I get those for elephants? Jon? List rule
maybe? heh!

TIm BRown

[Eric Turner]

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "browntj007" <browntj007@y...>
wrote:
> --- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "wdknee88" <eturner@c...>
wrote:
> > Some of us have used the same army (or type) for many years.
>
> "Tim Brown WILL most likely
> show up with alot of elephants in tow."
>
>
> Come'on, Eric. 15 elephants isn't 'alot', is it? Nice to know I
made
> an impression. Now, if I can just prevent you from getting that
> damned woods smack in the middle of the table you're toast. Come to
> think of it, that's a perfect example of applying all these great
> theories being preached in the last few posts - Know your enemy (
> both the list AND the person) and apply the terrain against him.
> Granted, Eric needed a six to screw me good on terrain placement,
but
> hey, he got it and deserved credit for making my life miserable.

Once in awhile life gets you great joys. The look on Tim's face when
I rolled that 6 was SOOO enjoyable, cause he KNEW right where to
place my woods. Thanks for the moments Tim "Woodessy" Brown




The
> 72 MI PA LTS, Bow chaps didn't hurt either. *grin*
> Hmmm...Mantlets...can I get those for elephants? Jon? List rule
> maybe? heh!
>
> TIm BRown

[Tim Brown]

>making my life miserable.
>
> Once in awhile life gets you great joys. The look on Tim's face
when
> I rolled that 6 was SOOO enjoyable, cause he KNEW right where to
> place my woods. Thanks for the moments Tim "Woodessy" Brown
>

I got another 'hallmark moment' coming for ya, Eric. Hope you can
give your boyz kevlar vests next time! I hate F*&^()$# WOODS!!

Tim

[Eric Turner]

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "browntj007" <browntj007@y...>
wrote:
> >making my life miserable.
> >
> > Once in awhile life gets you great joys. The look on Tim's face
> when
> > I rolled that 6 was SOOO enjoyable, cause he KNEW right where to
> > place my woods. Thanks for the moments Tim "Woodessy" Brown
> >
>
> I got another 'hallmark moment' coming for ya, Eric. Hope you can
> give your boyz kevlar vests next time! I hate F*&^()$# WOODS!!
>
> Tim

We don't nees no stinking vests.

Remember the trees get in the way of the forest.

Eric

[Kelly Wilkinson]

Ewan,
Take a look at the Medieval Vietnamese Fast Warrior list. This looks to be
the sweet successor to those of us who run Burmese. It contains Regular foot at
a cheap price along with what apears to be plenty of nasty Elephants with great
morale and a busload of crew! Definitely a possibility!

Kelly

ewanmcnay <ewan.mcnay@...> wrote:
It's been my experience that army choices tend to run in cycles -
knights are king, so everyone brings elephants, so everyone brings
Romans/bows, so everyone brings knights..

..and I wondered where people think we are in this cycle. I have seen
a lot of commentary about missile-armed foot recently, which (i) makes
me wonder whether we will see massed reg LMI missile foot in the NICT,
and (ii) what people would bring as their weapons/troops of choice to
deal with this? Or do others have a different perspective on the
cycle state?

Also, now that it's too late, I took a look at the NASAMW Vijayanagara
list, and I think that was clearly the 'right' answer as to what to
take for the NICT. Good elephants supported by a mass of regular
loose foot that can be part LHI, and is not too expensive - the curse
of Khmers - as wel as decent reg LI JLS, Sh and some Indian Reg EHC
lancers just in case. Only two downsides, really: the LMI B are
shieldless (which others worry about more than I, I confess), and I
would have had to pretend to be Indian with Khmer figures, which would
have aound up Scott. Wait, maybe that's an upside... ;)

Seriously, this looks to be maybe the best of the several
'elephants-plus-reg loose foot' lists going - thoughts from others?


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[Kelly Wilkinson]

Jon is absolutely correct,

Player skill and experience certainly have everything to do with victory.
Who would have every really thought that Patrician Romans would win the NICT?
Not I, given the armies available. But once again, a skilled "wily" veteran took
this (IMHO!) low morale army with tons of allies and poured a 55 gallon drum of
"butt whoopin" on the cast of the NICT!

Kelly
JonCleaves@... wrote:
In a message dated 7/17/2003 8:19:59 AM Eastern Standard Time,
ewan.mcnay@... writes:


<<It's been my experience that army choices tend to run in cycles - knights are
king, so everyone brings elephants, so everyone brings Romans/bows, so everyone
brings knights..>>

>....[reference Kingdom of V army..] Seriously, this looks to be maybe the best
of the several 'elephants-plus-reg loose foot' lists going - thoughts from
others?>>

I agree with your assessment of cycles, Ewan. But I'd add it is more subtly a
cycle of 'support troops' than a cycle of armies.
Given that we have not all broken the code on how to fight an all or mostly
mounted force, I'd (Lord forgive me) break the 'categories' of armies at the
NICT into: knights, elephants, barbarian foot, and missile foot. The question
of which to be, besides being driven much more by a player's 'style' than other
issues discussed here to my mind, is also driven by the type of support troops
that go with the main category just listed. What do you want to have with your
elephants? Well, what kills elephants? JLS armed foot of good morale, for
example. What kills *them*? *That's* the higher order question that also
decides which list to choose. Kingdom of V armies come with excellent support
troops to cover elephant 'vulnerabilities', so I think Ewan has correctly
idenitified them as a major contender.

I'd add, though, that Kingdom of V (or any other army) in the hands of someone
who is uncomfortable with it (or is a beginner) is far, far less of a concern
than any army in the hands of someone who is a good tactictian (as opposed to a
'rules marginalist') and/or who is extremely comfortable with it. If I know my
army inside and out and know how it matches up in most/all situations, I am
thinking about tactics while my opponent is counting factors on the combat chart
and trying to figure out how many march segments camels get. I am inside his
decisions at that point and that is a greater advantage than any given by troop
matchup. In my opinion anyway.

Jon



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