Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[John Garlic]

Hi All,

List seems pretty quiet on lists lately, so perhaps a good time to
seek some input on an army list I am considering taking to the Republic of Texas
Championships (ROTC) as the lone representative for the Warrior delegation
from the Republic of the Rio Grande.

I have played Russ several times, but am always tweaking at list since it has
quite a few options and I am never quite satisfied. I often seem to run into
problems with not having enough units. Here's one list I have run and am
looking for input on (I seem to be solid on defense, but never have enough
offensive oomph). Of late I seem to encounter knights and more knights every
time I
turn around. Last time I used this list, the Varangian Spearmen were the
target of choice for those knights :-)

4E Varangian CinC LHI 2HCW Sh w/P and 3E Warriors Irr B LHI 2HCW Sh
6E Varangian 3E Axemen Irr C LMI 2HCW Sh and 3E Spearmen Irr C LMI JLS Sh

6E Varangian 3E Axemen Irr C LMI 2HCW Sh and 3E Spearmen Irr C LMI JLS Sh

6E Varangian Spearmen Irr C MI JLS Sh
6E Varangian Spearmen Irr C MI JLS Sh
4E Varangian Archers Irr C LMI JLS B Sh w/det. 2E Beserkir Irr A LMI 2SA

4E Russ SubGen HI LTS JLS Sh w/P, and Irr C 1E HI LTS JLS Sh, 2E MI LTS
JLS Sh
9E Russ Irr C 6E MI LTS JLS Sh and 3E MI B
4E Druzhina Irr B 1/2 2HCW Sh and 1/2 JLS Sh

4E Pecheneg Ally HC JLS B Sh w/P and 3E Nobles Irr B HC JLS B Sh
4E Pecheneg Horse Archers Irr C B Sh
4E Pecheneg Horse Archers Irr C B Sh
4E Pecheneg Horse Archers Irr C B Sh
8E Pecheneg Wagon Defenders Irr C LMI B
8E Pecheneg Wagon Defenders Irr C LMI B

Please note that in some lists with Pechenegs it says you must purchase wagon
laager to get defenders, but doesn't say that in Russ list. Not sure if that
was an oversight.

One of these days I want to build an Early Russian (Aleksandr Nevski) list,
but it may require too much finesse for me at this time.

Thanks for any input,
John Garlic


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Harlan Garrett]

John,

Wow, thank you for catching the acronym, I did not even realize it was
there. COOL!!!!

Although, we prefer to call the Valley occupied territory. (A Texan
joke)

I look forward for the chance to play you again. Right now we have
seventeen people committed to the tournament.

After reviewing your list, I am going to have to adjust my list. ;-)

HG

-----Original Message-----
From: jmgarlic@... [mailto:jmgarlic@...]
Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2004 9:54 PM
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [WarriorRules] Army List Input in Preparation for ROTC


Hi All,

List seems pretty quiet on lists lately, so perhaps a good time to
seek some input on an army list I am considering taking to the Republic of
Texas Championships (ROTC) as the lone representative for the Warrior
delegation from the Republic of the Rio Grande.

I have played Russ several times, but am always tweaking at list since it
has quite a few options and I am never quite satisfied. I often seem to run
into problems with not having enough units. Here's one list I have run and
am looking for input on (I seem to be solid on defense, but never have
enough offensive oomph). Of late I seem to encounter knights and more
knights every time I turn around. Last time I used this list, the Varangian
Spearmen were the target of choice for those knights :-)

4E Varangian CinC LHI 2HCW Sh w/P and 3E Warriors Irr B LHI 2HCW Sh
6E Varangian 3E Axemen Irr C LMI 2HCW Sh and 3E Spearmen Irr C LMI JLS Sh


6E Varangian 3E Axemen Irr C LMI 2HCW Sh and 3E Spearmen Irr C LMI JLS Sh


6E Varangian Spearmen Irr C MI JLS Sh
6E Varangian Spearmen Irr C MI JLS Sh
4E Varangian Archers Irr C LMI JLS B Sh w/det. 2E Beserkir Irr A LMI 2SA

4E Russ SubGen HI LTS JLS Sh w/P, and Irr C 1E HI LTS JLS Sh, 2E MI LTS
JLS Sh
9E Russ Irr C 6E MI LTS JLS Sh and 3E MI B
4E Druzhina Irr B 1/2 2HCW Sh and 1/2 JLS Sh

4E Pecheneg Ally HC JLS B Sh w/P and 3E Nobles Irr B HC JLS B Sh
4E Pecheneg Horse Archers Irr C B Sh
4E Pecheneg Horse Archers Irr C B Sh
4E Pecheneg Horse Archers Irr C B Sh
8E Pecheneg Wagon Defenders Irr C LMI B
8E Pecheneg Wagon Defenders Irr C LMI B

Please note that in some lists with Pechenegs it says you must purchase
wagon laager to get defenders, but doesn't say that in Russ list. Not sure
if that was an oversight.

One of these days I want to build an Early Russian (Aleksandr Nevski) list,
but it may require too much finesse for me at this time.

Thanks for any input,
John Garlic


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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[Mark Mallard]

In a message dated 10/15/2004 4:00:46 AM GMT Daylight Time, jmgarlic@...
writes:

Hi All,

List seems pretty quiet on lists lately, so perhaps a good time to
seek some input on an army list I am considering taking to the Republic of
Texas
Championships (ROTC) as the lone representative for the Warrior delegation
from the Republic of the Rio Grande.

I have played Russ several times, but am always tweaking at list since it
has
quite a few options and I am never quite satisfied. I often seem to run
into
problems with not having enough units. Here's one list I have run and am
looking for input on (I seem to be solid on defense, but never have enough
offensive oomph). Of late I seem to encounter knights and more knights
every time I
turn around. Last time I used this list, the Varangian Spearmen were the
target of choice for those knights :-)

4E Varangian CinC LHI 2HCW Sh w/P and 3E Warriors Irr B LHI 2HCW Sh
6E Varangian 3E Axemen Irr C LMI 2HCW Sh and 3E Spearmen Irr C LMI JLS Sh

6E Varangian 3E Axemen Irr C LMI 2HCW Sh and 3E Spearmen Irr C LMI JLS Sh


6E Varangian Spearmen Irr C MI JLS Sh
6E Varangian Spearmen Irr C MI JLS Sh
4E Varangian Archers Irr C LMI JLS B Sh w/det. 2E Beserkir Irr A LMI 2SA

4E Russ SubGen HI LTS JLS Sh w/P, and Irr C 1E HI LTS JLS Sh, 2E MI LTS
JLS Sh
9E Russ Irr C 6E MI LTS JLS Sh and 3E MI B
4E Druzhina Irr B 1/2 2HCW Sh and 1/2 JLS Sh

4E Pecheneg Ally HC JLS B Sh w/P and 3E Nobles Irr B HC JLS B Sh
4E Pecheneg Horse Archers Irr C B Sh
4E Pecheneg Horse Archers Irr C B Sh
4E Pecheneg Horse Archers Irr C B Sh
8E Pecheneg Wagon Defenders Irr C LMI B
8E Pecheneg Wagon Defenders Irr C LMI B

Please note that in some lists with Pechenegs it says you must purchase
wagon
laager to get defenders, but doesn't say that in Russ list. Not sure if
that
was an oversight.

One of these days I want to build an Early Russian (Aleksandr Nevski) list,
but it may require too much finesse for me at this time.

Thanks for any input,
John Garlic




No lists to hand but i play against this army often. We have noted a severe
problem with this list. To get cavalry you need to take a pecheneg ally and to
get varangians another sub general. Which leaves little for the actual Russ
component. The Russ spearmen are the best unit. Im not sure varangian
spearmen have to be MI, i do not recall my opponent fielding any. His
varangians/vikings are usually loose order. Any way in my opinion three blocks
of Russ
spears are essential to push across the board. The unit you have as the C in C
always get mown down by cavalry lancers when i play against it so keep it safe.

mark mallard


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Mark Mallard]

In a message dated 10/15/2004 9:27:01 AM GMT Daylight Time,
markmallard7@... writes:

Hi All,

List seems pretty quiet on lists lately, so perhaps a good time to
seek some input on an army list I am considering taking to the Republic of
Texas
Championships (ROTC) as the lone representative for the Warrior delegation
from the Republic of the Rio Grande.

I have played Russ several times, but am always tweaking at list since it
has
quite a few options and I am never quite satisfied. I often seem to run
into
problems with not having enough units. Here's one list I have run and am
looking for input on (I seem to be solid on defense, but never have enough
offensive oomph). Of late I seem to encounter knights and more knights
every time I
turn around. Last time I used this list, the Varangian Spearmen were the
target of choice for those knights :-)

4E Varangian CinC LHI 2HCW Sh w/P and 3E Warriors Irr B LHI 2HCW Sh
6E Varangian 3E Axemen Irr C LMI 2HCW Sh and 3E Spearmen Irr C LMI JLS Sh


6E Varangian 3E Axemen Irr C LMI 2HCW Sh and 3E Spearmen Irr C LMI JLS Sh



6E Varangian Spearmen Irr C MI JLS Sh
6E Varangian Spearmen Irr C MI JLS Sh
4E Varangian Archers Irr C LMI JLS B Sh w/det. 2E Beserkir Irr A LMI 2SA

4E Russ SubGen HI LTS JLS Sh w/P, and Irr C 1E HI LTS JLS Sh, 2E MI LTS
JLS Sh
9E Russ Irr C 6E MI LTS JLS Sh and 3E MI B
4E Druzhina Irr B 1/2 2HCW Sh and 1/2 JLS Sh

4E Pecheneg Ally HC JLS B Sh w/P and 3E Nobles Irr B HC JLS B Sh
4E Pecheneg Horse Archers Irr C B Sh
4E Pecheneg Horse Archers Irr C B Sh
4E Pecheneg Horse Archers Irr C B Sh
8E Pecheneg Wagon Defenders Irr C LMI B
8E Pecheneg Wagon Defenders Irr C LMI B

Please note that in some lists with Pechenegs it says you must purchase
wagon
laager to get defenders, but doesn't say that in Russ list. Not sure if
that
was an oversight.

One of these days I want to build an Early Russian (Aleksandr Nevski) list,
but it may require too much finesse for me at this time.

Thanks for any input,
John Garlic




No lists to hand but i play against this army often. We have noted a severe
problem with this list. To get cavalry you need to take a pecheneg ally and
to
get varangians another sub general. Which leaves little for the actual Russ
component. The Russ spearmen are the best unit. Im not sure varangian
spearmen have to be MI, i do not recall my opponent fielding any. His
varangians/vikings are usually loose order. Any way in my opinion three
blocks of Russ
spears are essential to push across the board. The unit you have as the C
in C
always get mown down by cavalry lancers when i play against it so keep it
safe.

mark mallard




Got my lists now. So hope the following is of some use.

The varangian archers are more useful than the varangian spearmen, and as i
suspected there is no need to upgrade the spearmen, just keep them in terrain.

The CinC can be more useful as a Russ unit, kept behind the main line of
russ spear/bow blocks to enable those wonderful impetuous charges.

Most of the pecheneg command looks fine but those wagon defenders look very
vulnerable.

On the one time i played on the russ side against seleucids (my usual army)
i had the pecheneg command of just LC and HC. I held my flank long enough to
see the three spear/bow blocks take out some pike units in the centre and even
went to aid the other flank (varangian) which was by then on retreat after
some heavy fighting. I had great pleasure taking out the enemy CinC with my
Pecheneg generals unit as the seleucid centre collapsed.

mark mallard


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I have this army in 15mm and 25mm. I would max my Russ spear,
minimize the varangians. Mix the varangian command in small units
behind the Russ spear to counter attack. Get rid of the Pechnegs and
us Bulgars. The lancers are much more useful and keep the LC Ds.
Success depends on how well you coordinate the push with your close
order spear and counterattacks with the Varangians while the Bulgars
stretch the flank.

When and where is ROTC? 15mm or 25mm? Could be worth a road trip.

Wes

[Harlan Garrett]

Third Annual Republic of Texas is November 20 & 21; 1600 points; 15-mm;
Austin, TX

-----Original Message-----
From: lsu90 [mailto:lsu90@...]
Sent: Friday, October 15, 2004 5:41 AM
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [WarriorRules] Re: Army List Input in Preparation for ROTC



I have this army in 15mm and 25mm. I would max my Russ spear, minimize the
varangians. Mix the varangian command in small units behind the Russ spear
to counter attack. Get rid of the Pechnegs and us Bulgars. The lancers are
much more useful and keep the LC Ds.
Success depends on how well you coordinate the push with your close order
spear and counterattacks with the Varangians while the Bulgars stretch the
flank.

When and where is ROTC? 15mm or 25mm? Could be worth a road trip.

Wes





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[Ewan McNay]

John -

- as others have said, taking Varangians as MI is a waste of the
Russ MI. Minimise the Varangian spearmen and take them as LMI.

I would also skip the wagon defenders or take them as LI if available.

Right now you have a Russ list with very few Russ, so it seems that
you're getting the worst of all worlds. Take more of the Russ MI,
skip the back rank of B if needed. You may wish not to worry about
LI, as the close foot cannot usefully combine with it easily, and just
push as fast as possible with the close fooot, relying on Varangians
and terrain for the flanks.

Ewan

jmgarlic@... wrote:
> 4E Varangian CinC LHI 2HCW Sh w/P and 3E Warriors Irr B LHI 2HCW Sh
> 6E Varangian 3E Axemen Irr C LMI 2HCW Sh and 3E Spearmen Irr C LMI JLS Sh
>
> 6E Varangian 3E Axemen Irr C LMI 2HCW Sh and 3E Spearmen Irr C LMI JLS Sh
>
> 6E Varangian Spearmen Irr C MI JLS Sh
> 6E Varangian Spearmen Irr C MI JLS Sh
> 4E Varangian Archers Irr C LMI JLS B Sh w/det. 2E Beserkir Irr A LMI 2SA
>
> 4E Russ SubGen HI LTS JLS Sh w/P, and Irr C 1E HI LTS JLS Sh, 2E MI LTS
> JLS Sh
> 9E Russ Irr C 6E MI LTS JLS Sh and 3E MI B
> 4E Druzhina Irr B 1/2 2HCW Sh and 1/2 JLS Sh
>
> 4E Pecheneg Ally HC JLS B Sh w/P and 3E Nobles Irr B HC JLS B Sh
> 4E Pecheneg Horse Archers Irr C B Sh
> 4E Pecheneg Horse Archers Irr C B Sh
> 4E Pecheneg Horse Archers Irr C B Sh
> 8E Pecheneg Wagon Defenders Irr C LMI B
> 8E Pecheneg Wagon Defenders Irr C LMI B
>
> Please note that in some lists with Pechenegs it says you must purchase wagon
> laager to get defenders, but doesn't say that in Russ list. Not sure if that
> was an oversight.
>
> One of these days I want to build an Early Russian (Aleksandr Nevski) list,
> but it may require too much finesse for me at this time.
>
> Thanks for any input,
> John Garlic
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[Kelly Wilkinson]

Johnny,

My true belief is that if you run lists like the Russ, you must run it
because of a love of that army and not because you always want to win. As you
noted, there is a big lack of punch inherent in the list. Basically it's a
hoplite army with tons a good supporting cast. First let's talk about your
Varangians and their uses. Personally, I would only use these as peripherial
(spelling) troops or to fill the gaps between my big fat Russ units. It's no
wonder why they are knight magnets. They are loose order and the knights suffer
no minus's coming in. Their easy meat that will cause your "C" class Russ to
waver test and leave you wondering what went wrong. In my opinion, these guys do
very well in a woods. But as my good friend Craig Scott says, "The woods are
velcro." Which means all he has to do is put two 2 element Light infantry units
in a woods and you will be stuck there for the remainder of a battle while the
real fighting will be decided somewhere else. So, do you really
want to use these guys in the woods? I say no, but you will need to be extra
careful and use them as counter-punchers to go after units that get stuck to
your LTS guys.
As I've now known you for quite some time now, you and I seem to like
similar armies. Lots of line infantry with shooting power and a good supporting
cast. The Russ are much like the Arab Empire minuse the good supporting cast.
Whereas the Arab Empire can hold brush against knights (Daylami/Egyptian
Marines) the Russ army doesn't really have any troop type to do this without
getting stomped. As far as punch goes and really dictating the battle (because
we all know that cavalry is the arm of "Decision,") You really don't have
anything that will make the kind of impression on an opponent like your knight
opponents.
For quite sometime now, my philosophy has changed from using quality line
troops to decide a battle to one where garbage line infantry will do just as
well. The ultimate Army for this IMHO is Anglo-Norman. Sean Scott (who is a top
flight player) uses this army to it's maximum ability almost Alexandrian in his
approach which is, "Grab your opponent by the nose (with your crappy 12 element
Irg "D" MI line foot, which will cause most enemies to stick to you) and finish
him off with craploads of (in the case of the Anglo-Normans) HK L, Sh. Certainly
this is a simple but effective if not a brilliant take on strategy. If he has to
go head to head with SHK, he's really only 1 factor worse and he can certainly
out knight anyone in the game. This is what I see with Michael Forbes as well,
except that he uses even more HC L, Sh. People usually stick to his 6 element MI
JLS, Sh guys and he out cav's you with enough left over for a very nasty and
surprising flank march that would scare the
bejesus out of most players including myself.
It just comes down to history in many cases. Warrior lists seem to boil
down to history. What I mean to say is, how effective were the Russ or any army
that one examines to use in their battles/conquests? It seems to me that the
Russ were very effective against the Slavs and each other. But generally
speaking, when faced with complex foes, they seem to have been pounded and
conquered (Mongols) or just badly stomped (Byzantines).
Looking at the list the way you have written it says to me that you are
giving the initiative over to your opponent. Your "Punch troops are too
vulnerable and in my opinion, your asking for trouble with your varangian
spearmen. These guys just need a sign that says, "Wanted, Knights to kill us so
we can make this low morale army take multiple waver tests!" In fact, looking at
the way you built this list, I get the impression you like the Vikings troops
better than the Russ, so why not find a list with lots of Vikings and some kind
of decent cav punch?

kelly

jmgarlic@... wrote:
Hi All,

List seems pretty quiet on lists lately, so perhaps a good time to
seek some input on an army list I am considering taking to the Republic of Texas
Championships (ROTC) as the lone representative for the Warrior delegation
from the Republic of the Rio Grande.

I have played Russ several times, but am always tweaking at list since it has
quite a few options and I am never quite satisfied. I often seem to run into
problems with not having enough units. Here's one list I have run and am
looking for input on (I seem to be solid on defense, but never have enough
offensive oomph). Of late I seem to encounter knights and more knights every
time I
turn around. Last time I used this list, the Varangian Spearmen were the
target of choice for those knights :-)

4E Varangian CinC LHI 2HCW Sh w/P and 3E Warriors Irr B LHI 2HCW Sh
6E Varangian 3E Axemen Irr C LMI 2HCW Sh and 3E Spearmen Irr C LMI JLS Sh

6E Varangian 3E Axemen Irr C LMI 2HCW Sh and 3E Spearmen Irr C LMI JLS Sh

6E Varangian Spearmen Irr C MI JLS Sh
6E Varangian Spearmen Irr C MI JLS Sh
4E Varangian Archers Irr C LMI JLS B Sh w/det. 2E Beserkir Irr A LMI 2SA

4E Russ SubGen HI LTS JLS Sh w/P, and Irr C 1E HI LTS JLS Sh, 2E MI LTS
JLS Sh
9E Russ Irr C 6E MI LTS JLS Sh and 3E MI B
4E Druzhina Irr B 1/2 2HCW Sh and 1/2 JLS Sh

4E Pecheneg Ally HC JLS B Sh w/P and 3E Nobles Irr B HC JLS B Sh
4E Pecheneg Horse Archers Irr C B Sh
4E Pecheneg Horse Archers Irr C B Sh
4E Pecheneg Horse Archers Irr C B Sh
8E Pecheneg Wagon Defenders Irr C LMI B
8E Pecheneg Wagon Defenders Irr C LMI B

Please note that in some lists with Pechenegs it says you must purchase wagon
laager to get defenders, but doesn't say that in Russ list. Not sure if that
was an oversight.

One of these days I want to build an Early Russian (Aleksandr Nevski) list,
but it may require too much finesse for me at this time.

Thanks for any input,
John Garlic


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[John Garlic]

Hi All,

Thanks for all of the advice. I actually have a bout four lists. This is the
list I use for broken terrain. The Pechenegs I usually deploy on a flank.

I have one list that is Bulgar heavy, which is probably my favorite one to use.
I also have two lists focusing on large numbers of Russ. They always seem to
suffer from never making decisive contact. They usually don't get charged, but
tend to end up delayed by light troops across the board. When I bulk up with
them, it usually comes down to some form of a draw. The Bulgars HC have proven
the most effective at breaking that delay down and forcing engagement.

John G.

In a message dated 10/15/2004 10:04:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Ewan McNay
<ewan.mcnay@...> writes:

>
>John -
>
>  - as others have said, taking Varangians as MI is a waste of the
>Russ MI.  Minimise the Varangian spearmen and take them as LMI.
>
>I would also skip the wagon defenders or take them as LI if available.
>
>Right now you have a Russ list with very few Russ, so it seems that
>you're getting the worst of all worlds.  Take more of the Russ MI,
>skip the back rank of B if needed.  You may wish not to worry about
>LI, as the close foot cannot usefully combine with it easily, and just
>push as fast as possible with the close fooot, relying on Varangians
>and terrain for the flanks.
>
>Ewan
>
>jmgarlic@... wrote:
>> 4E  Varangian CinC  LHI 2HCW Sh w/P and 3E Warriors Irr B LHI 2HCW Sh
>> 6E  Varangian 3E Axemen Irr C LMI 2HCW Sh and 3E Spearmen Irr C LMI JLS Sh  
   
>>    
>> 6E  Varangian 3E Axemen Irr C LMI 2HCW Sh and 3E Spearmen Irr C LMI JLS Sh  
   
>>        
>> 6E   Varangian Spearmen   Irr C MI JLS Sh          
>> 6E   Varangian Spearmen   Irr C MI JLS Sh          
>> 4E   Varangian Archers Irr C LMI JLS B Sh w/det. 2E Beserkir Irr A LMI 2SA
>>
>> 4E   Russ SubGen  HI LTS JLS Sh w/P, and Irr C 1E  HI LTS JLS Sh, 2E MI LTS
>> JLS Sh            
>> 9E   Russ Irr C  6E MI  LTS JLS Sh and 3E MI B          
>> 4E   Druzhina   Irr B   1/2 2HCW Sh and 1/2 JLS Sh          
>>
>> 4E   Pecheneg Ally  HC JLS B Sh w/P and 3E Nobles Irr B HC JLS B Sh
>> 4E   Pecheneg Horse Archers  Irr C  B Sh            
>> 4E   Pecheneg Horse Archers  Irr C  B Sh            
>> 4E   Pecheneg Horse Archers  Irr C  B Sh            
>> 8E   Pecheneg Wagon Defenders   Irr C LMI B        
>> 8E   Pecheneg Wagon Defenders   Irr C LMI B        
>>
>> Please note that in some lists with Pechenegs it says you must purchase wagon
>> laager to get defenders, but doesn't say that in Russ list.  Not sure if that
>> was an oversight.
>>
>> One of these days I want to build an Early Russian (Aleksandr Nevski) list,
>> but it may require too much finesse for me at this time.
>>
>> Thanks for any input,
>> John Garlic
>>
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>  
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[Mark Stone]

A couple of preliminary remarks to set context, and then some comments on the
list.
- First, I like this army a lot, and play it regularly in both 15mm and 25mm. It
isn't a "killer" list, but it's a good list, and not one that requires a lot of
finesse. So it's a fun army, and one I often recommend for beginners.
- Second, I've gotten acustomed to playing in 1 list tournaments -- even though
I don't like it -- so my comments will be from that perspective, even though
this is a list that gets _much_ better if you can take more than one variation.
- Finally, my understanding is that Texans favor knight/cav armies ("them's just
cowboys with steel"), which makes life quite a bit more challenging for Rus.
Still doable, though; see below.

--- On October 14 John Garlic said: ---

> 4E Varangian CinC LHI 2HCW Sh w/P and 3E Warriors Irr B LHI 2HCW Sh
> 6E Varangian 3E Axemen Irr C LMI 2HCW Sh and 3E Spearmen Irr C LMI JLS Sh
>
> 6E Varangian 3E Axemen Irr C LMI 2HCW Sh and 3E Spearmen Irr C LMI JLS Sh
>
> 6E Varangian Spearmen Irr C MI JLS Sh
> 6E Varangian Spearmen Irr C MI JLS Sh

The above unit serves no purpose. It can't hide in bad terrain, and cavalry of
all kinds will just eat it alive. Drop it.

> 4E Varangian Archers Irr C LMI JLS B Sh w/det. 2E Beserkir Irr A LMI 2SA
>
> 4E Russ SubGen HI LTS JLS Sh w/P, and Irr C 1E HI LTS JLS Sh, 2E MI LTS
> JLS Sh

The above unit will be a magnet to the enemy. You can't afford to hide it as you
need to hold the frontage, and while it's fairly sturdy there are just way too
many things that beat it. Picture Spanish knights and Moogs descending on your
hapless CinC, and the resulting waver tests as a unit in the middle of your
line blows up.

> 9E Russ Irr C 6E MI LTS JLS Sh and 3E MI B

The rear rank of bow serves little purpose here. Doesn't do enough shooting, and
doesn't add enough figures to the body to make a difference. All it does is soak
up points and narrow your frontage.

> 4E Druzhina Irr B 1/2 2HCW Sh and 1/2 JLS Sh
>
> 4E Pecheneg Ally HC JLS B Sh w/P and 3E Nobles Irr B HC JLS B Sh

Why on earth would you want to take javelin-armed HC?? These guys just flat out
suck, especially on a list where you can take Bulgars instead and get
essentially the same configuration with lance. Drop the Pechenegs entirely.

> 4E Pecheneg Horse Archers Irr C B Sh
> 4E Pecheneg Horse Archers Irr C B Sh
> 4E Pecheneg Horse Archers Irr C B Sh
> 8E Pecheneg Wagon Defenders Irr C LMI B
> 8E Pecheneg Wagon Defenders Irr C LMI B

Without shields, LMI B are just too vulnerable. Sure, you can skirmish. That'll
help for one bound. Then you take 2 CPF in prep, recall, and fail your counter
to get back into skirmish. Now what? You're screwed.

So here's an alternative viewpoint:

When I play Russ, I don't try and win with the spearmen. They're too slow, too
vulnerable, and too unwieldy. Instead I have them occupy the middle, lagging
behind the rest of the army, as I attempt a double flank attack. Let's look at
the list, and then I'll explain what I mean:

Russ CinC w/Irr B HI 2HCW,Sh, 1 stand Druzhina Irr B HI JLS,Sh
2 x Russ Spearmen 6 stands Irr C MI LTS,JLS,Sh
2 x Russ Archers Irr C LI B,Sh/B

Varangian Ally w/2 stands Irr B LHI 2HCW,Sh
1 x Varangian axemen 4 stands Irr B LHI 2HCW,Sh
1 x Varangian beserks 2 stands Irr A LMI 2HCW,Sh/2HCW
2 x Varangian spearmen 6 stands Irr B/C LHI/LMI JLS,Sh
1 x Varangian archers 4 stands Irr B LMI JLS,B,Sh

Bulgar Ally w/2 stands Irr B HC L,B,Sh
2 x Bulgar nobles 2 stands Irr B HC L,B,Sh
2 x Bulgar horse archers 6 stands Irr C/D LC JLS,B,Sh

For terrain picks, take 3 hills and a brush. The hills should be entirely steep,
and should run parallel to the edge of the table. They should be crested, not
plateau. They should be placed along one flank, straddling the center line and
extending into your opponent's side of the table. The brush should go on the
other flank, entirely on your side of the table.

The plan is pretty simple. Your Varangians are going to march through the hills
and look for things to kill or flank opportunities to exploit. Your Russ hold
the middle, advancing slowly. Your CinC is in the gap between, and slightly
behind, your two Russ spear units. On the other flank you put the Rus LI, the
Bulgar LC, and the Bulgar HC. Your aim is to win the skirmisher engagement on
that flank, which 2 units of shielded LI and 2 units of JLS,B-armed LC can do
very effectively, especially when backed by lancers.

Against knight armies, your Varangians spend a lot of time in the hills, only
coming out to counter attack or if your opponent makes a mistake. This happens
more often than you might think. If he charges a spear block with his knights,
for example, you should have a Varangian unit ready to pounce on his flank
since he won't break your spears at contact.

Against knight armies that didn't bring enough skirmishers you'll probably win
the battle with the Bulgar command, as that's just too much good skirmisher
power on one flank against armies weak in light troops.

Against elephant armies and/or infantry heavy armies you are really in your
element. Harrass one flank with the cavalry, and attack aggressively on the
other flank with the Varangians. The Rus follow, covering the flank of the
Varangians and exploiting any opportunities created.

You want hills rather than brush or woods for the Varangians for several
reasons. First, you want to be able to see each other and shoot at each other.
This makes it much harder for a couple of LI units to hold you down. On a hill,
your Varangian archers will absolutely clear out enemy LI. In the woods, their
bows become useless and you bog down. Brush would do just as well, but brush
doesn't provide enough cover against cavalry.

There are certainly other ways to play this army, and what I've described may
not suit your playing style. It's a fun army, and very versatile. Ironically,
it's one of those armies that's probably easier to play than it is to purchase.
Figuring out how to buy the army is the hard part.


-Mark Stone

[Greg Regets]

Good Afternoon John ...

Rather than go into list specifics, I would rather concentrate on
tactical issues concerning this list. Please accept my apology in
advance if my comments seem blunt.

1. Your statement about how much trouble you have getting your
spearmen into combat, perhaps betrays a large part of the tactical
difficulty you are having with this army.

Want are you doing to help get them into combat? Anything? Nothing?

Your list below does nothing to help you, as you basically commit
yourself to "walling them up" and hoping the enemy matches up to your
advantage. This will rarely if ever happen with quality players.

Suggestion: Buy the archers and LI with shields in front, and buy the
Slav Scouts as LI with JLS Sh. Use these to somewhat front your
spearmen. These march four segments and will help give you distance
with the spearmen, and prevent an enemy from pinning at 240p and
getting a falt footed charge against your spearmen. What you want to
do is get to 80p so you can charge impetuously. Even the
dreaded "Moog" will not find this to his liking. The Slav's have two
added advanteges in that they defeat most other LI, and are great for
holding terrain. If you need to small the board, roll a hill with
steep slopes and put a unit of these behind the steep part. By the
time an enemy takes the -2 for haulted higher and with you having JLS
and shields, the factor chart will not favor him unless he puts
heavier types in the mix. If tha tis the case, you have made him
commit greater points to the effort, which favors you. I would
suggets archers in 6-stand units and Slavs in 4-stand units. Buy two
of each.

3. Mixing the MI bow in with the spear units might be a good idea
some places, but not against the armies you will fight around here.
If you put them in the third rank, the fire density does nothing. In
the second rank, you rish being charged that way and only get one
rank fighting.

4. Buy some 8-stand spear units. Everyone in this area will not agree
with this statement, but I really like the way you can start 2-stand
wide and 4-stands deep, offering you the ability to expand on either
flank and still move an inch. If you have lights to help set you up,
you actually get more total movement this way. In addition, reading
the factor chart, knights have a very difficult time getting a recoil
when you are two wide and four deep.

5. Remember, that for mounted to charge your steady spearmen, they
must be part of a comment under attack orders. This is and can be
important. Read the orders section very carefully, taking special
note of the madnatory advance required under these orders.

6. Don't mix your generals in with the large spearmen units. This is
just too dangerous. Buy them as two stand units that will dive into
protracted battles by your main line. Less risky and highly effective.

7. What are the Varangians going to be used for, and are they the
most cost effective way to accomplish this goal? Do they really kill
anything that the spearment cannot also kill if you help them get to
impetuous charge reach? Is that going to come up enough times to
validate the cost?

8. Bulgars are your clear choice as the cavarly arm for all the
reasons expressed here.

9. Ewan McNay made a very casual statement on this board quite some
time ago, that has really stuck with me. While heavily paraphrased,
the overriding point was that armies exist as "movement" armies
or "hard target armies", and that there was great risk in trying to
do both ... in effect trying to be all things to all people. Clearly
this is a hard target army, and like a big strong, physical football
team, you want to deny the enemy any easy gifts, but instead make him
out execute you to beat you.

Hope this might help ... g

P.S. If you are short spearmen, I have a ton.



--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, jmgarlic@a... wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> List seems pretty quiet on lists lately, so perhaps a good
time to
> seek some input on an army list I am considering taking to the
Republic of Texas
> Championships (ROTC) as the lone representative for the Warrior
delegation
> from the Republic of the Rio Grande.
>
> I have played Russ several times, but am always tweaking at list
since it has
> quite a few options and I am never quite satisfied. I often seem
to run into
> problems with not having enough units. Here's one list I have run
and am
> looking for input on (I seem to be solid on defense, but never have
enough
> offensive oomph). Of late I seem to encounter knights and more
knights every time I
> turn around. Last time I used this list, the Varangian Spearmen
were the
> target of choice for those knights
>
> 4E Varangian CinC LHI 2HCW Sh w/P and 3E Warriors Irr B LHI 2HCW
Sh
> 6E Varangian 3E Axemen Irr C LMI 2HCW Sh and 3E Spearmen Irr C LMI
JLS Sh
>
> 6E Varangian 3E Axemen Irr C LMI 2HCW Sh and 3E Spearmen Irr C LMI
JLS Sh
>
> 6E Varangian Spearmen Irr C MI JLS Sh
> 6E Varangian Spearmen Irr C MI JLS Sh
> 4E Varangian Archers Irr C LMI JLS B Sh w/det. 2E Beserkir Irr A
LMI 2SA
>
> 4E Russ SubGen HI LTS JLS Sh w/P, and Irr C 1E HI LTS JLS Sh,
2E MI LTS
> JLS Sh
> 9E Russ Irr C 6E MI LTS JLS Sh and 3E MI B
> 4E Druzhina Irr B 1/2 2HCW Sh and 1/2 JLS Sh
>
> 4E Pecheneg Ally HC JLS B Sh w/P and 3E Nobles Irr B HC JLS B Sh
> 4E Pecheneg Horse Archers Irr C B Sh
> 4E Pecheneg Horse Archers Irr C B Sh
> 4E Pecheneg Horse Archers Irr C B Sh
> 8E Pecheneg Wagon Defenders Irr C LMI B
> 8E Pecheneg Wagon Defenders Irr C LMI B
>
> Please note that in some lists with Pechenegs it says you must
purchase wagon
> laager to get defenders, but doesn't say that in Russ list. Not
sure if that
> was an oversight.
>
> One of these days I want to build an Early Russian (Aleksandr
Nevski) list,
> but it may require too much finesse for me at this time.
>
> Thanks for any input,
> John Garlic
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[joncleaves]

3. Mixing the MI bow in with the spear units might be a good idea
some places, but not against the armies you will fight around here. >>

I don't know 'bout 'round your parts, but 'round here, third rank bow is used to
split fire (shooter die-rectly in front and all that). Not that I would advise
it in this list, but not so sure it should be dismissed out of hand...

J

[Kelly Wilkinson]

Greg,

You have too much time at work! I need to get into your line of work,
that's for sure.

Greg Regets <greg.regets@...> wrote:

Good Afternoon John ...

Rather than go into list specifics, I would rather concentrate on
tactical issues concerning this list. Please accept my apology in
advance if my comments seem blunt.

1. Your statement about how much trouble you have getting your
spearmen into combat, perhaps betrays a large part of the tactical
difficulty you are having with this army.

Want are you doing to help get them into combat? Anything? Nothing?

Your list below does nothing to help you, as you basically commit
yourself to "walling them up" and hoping the enemy matches up to your
advantage. This will rarely if ever happen with quality players.

Suggestion: Buy the archers and LI with shields in front, and buy the
Slav Scouts as LI with JLS Sh. Use these to somewhat front your
spearmen. These march four segments and will help give you distance
with the spearmen, and prevent an enemy from pinning at 240p and
getting a falt footed charge against your spearmen. What you want to
do is get to 80p so you can charge impetuously. Even the
dreaded "Moog" will not find this to his liking. The Slav's have two
added advanteges in that they defeat most other LI, and are great for
holding terrain. If you need to small the board, roll a hill with
steep slopes and put a unit of these behind the steep part. By the
time an enemy takes the -2 for haulted higher and with you having JLS
and shields, the factor chart will not favor him unless he puts
heavier types in the mix. If tha tis the case, you have made him
commit greater points to the effort, which favors you. I would
suggets archers in 6-stand units and Slavs in 4-stand units. Buy two
of each.

3. Mixing the MI bow in with the spear units might be a good idea
some places, but not against the armies you will fight around here.
If you put them in the third rank, the fire density does nothing. In
the second rank, you rish being charged that way and only get one
rank fighting.

4. Buy some 8-stand spear units. Everyone in this area will not agree
with this statement, but I really like the way you can start 2-stand
wide and 4-stands deep, offering you the ability to expand on either
flank and still move an inch. If you have lights to help set you up,
you actually get more total movement this way. In addition, reading
the factor chart, knights have a very difficult time getting a recoil
when you are two wide and four deep.

5. Remember, that for mounted to charge your steady spearmen, they
must be part of a comment under attack orders. This is and can be
important. Read the orders section very carefully, taking special
note of the madnatory advance required under these orders.

6. Don't mix your generals in with the large spearmen units. This is
just too dangerous. Buy them as two stand units that will dive into
protracted battles by your main line. Less risky and highly effective.

7. What are the Varangians going to be used for, and are they the
most cost effective way to accomplish this goal? Do they really kill
anything that the spearment cannot also kill if you help them get to
impetuous charge reach? Is that going to come up enough times to
validate the cost?

8. Bulgars are your clear choice as the cavarly arm for all the
reasons expressed here.

9. Ewan McNay made a very casual statement on this board quite some
time ago, that has really stuck with me. While heavily paraphrased,
the overriding point was that armies exist as "movement" armies
or "hard target armies", and that there was great risk in trying to
do both ... in effect trying to be all things to all people. Clearly
this is a hard target army, and like a big strong, physical football
team, you want to deny the enemy any easy gifts, but instead make him
out execute you to beat you.

Hope this might help ... g

P.S. If you are short spearmen, I have a ton.



--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, jmgarlic@a... wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> List seems pretty quiet on lists lately, so perhaps a good
time to
> seek some input on an army list I am considering taking to the
Republic of Texas
> Championships (ROTC) as the lone representative for the Warrior
delegation
> from the Republic of the Rio Grande.
>
> I have played Russ several times, but am always tweaking at list
since it has
> quite a few options and I am never quite satisfied. I often seem
to run into
> problems with not having enough units. Here's one list I have run
and am
> looking for input on (I seem to be solid on defense, but never have
enough
> offensive oomph). Of late I seem to encounter knights and more
knights every time I
> turn around. Last time I used this list, the Varangian Spearmen
were the
> target of choice for those knights
>
> 4E Varangian CinC LHI 2HCW Sh w/P and 3E Warriors Irr B LHI 2HCW
Sh
> 6E Varangian 3E Axemen Irr C LMI 2HCW Sh and 3E Spearmen Irr C LMI
JLS Sh
>
> 6E Varangian 3E Axemen Irr C LMI 2HCW Sh and 3E Spearmen Irr C LMI
JLS Sh
>
> 6E Varangian Spearmen Irr C MI JLS Sh
> 6E Varangian Spearmen Irr C MI JLS Sh
> 4E Varangian Archers Irr C LMI JLS B Sh w/det. 2E Beserkir Irr A
LMI 2SA
>
> 4E Russ SubGen HI LTS JLS Sh w/P, and Irr C 1E HI LTS JLS Sh,
2E MI LTS
> JLS Sh
> 9E Russ Irr C 6E MI LTS JLS Sh and 3E MI B
> 4E Druzhina Irr B 1/2 2HCW Sh and 1/2 JLS Sh
>
> 4E Pecheneg Ally HC JLS B Sh w/P and 3E Nobles Irr B HC JLS B Sh
> 4E Pecheneg Horse Archers Irr C B Sh
> 4E Pecheneg Horse Archers Irr C B Sh
> 4E Pecheneg Horse Archers Irr C B Sh
> 8E Pecheneg Wagon Defenders Irr C LMI B
> 8E Pecheneg Wagon Defenders Irr C LMI B
>
> Please note that in some lists with Pechenegs it says you must
purchase wagon
> laager to get defenders, but doesn't say that in Russ list. Not
sure if that
> was an oversight.
>
> One of these days I want to build an Early Russian (Aleksandr
Nevski) list,
> but it may require too much finesse for me at this time.
>
> Thanks for any input,
> John Garlic
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Greg Regets]

Comments specific to the Russ list.

g



--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, JonCleaves@a... wrote:
> 3. Mixing the MI bow in with the spear units might be a good idea
> some places, but not against the armies you will fight around here.
>>
>
> I don't know 'bout 'round your parts, but 'round here, third rank
bow is used to split fire (shooter die-rectly in front and all
that). Not that I would advise it in this list, but not so sure it
should be dismissed out of hand...
>
> J

[Greg Regets]

You wouldn't have said that last month, when I spent most nights
sleeping in the chair in my office.

Then again, last week I was "forced" to run Shiner Bock promotions at
local strip clubs.

It's both good and bad to be me. ;-)

g


--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, kelly wilkinson
<jwilkinson62@y...> wrote:
> Greg,
>
> You have too much time at work! I need to get into your line
of work, that's for sure.
>
> Greg Regets <greg.regets@g...> wrote:
>
> Good Afternoon John ...
>
> Rather than go into list specifics, I would rather concentrate on
> tactical issues concerning this list. Please accept my apology in
> advance if my comments seem blunt.
>
> 1. Your statement about how much trouble you have getting your
> spearmen into combat, perhaps betrays a large part of the tactical
> difficulty you are having with this army.
>
> Want are you doing to help get them into combat? Anything? Nothing?
>
> Your list below does nothing to help you, as you basically commit
> yourself to "walling them up" and hoping the enemy matches up to
your
> advantage. This will rarely if ever happen with quality players.
>
> Suggestion: Buy the archers and LI with shields in front, and buy
the
> Slav Scouts as LI with JLS Sh. Use these to somewhat front your
> spearmen. These march four segments and will help give you distance
> with the spearmen, and prevent an enemy from pinning at 240p and
> getting a falt footed charge against your spearmen. What you want
to
> do is get to 80p so you can charge impetuously. Even the
> dreaded "Moog" will not find this to his liking. The Slav's have
two
> added advanteges in that they defeat most other LI, and are great
for
> holding terrain. If you need to small the board, roll a hill with
> steep slopes and put a unit of these behind the steep part. By the
> time an enemy takes the -2 for haulted higher and with you having
JLS
> and shields, the factor chart will not favor him unless he puts
> heavier types in the mix. If tha tis the case, you have made him
> commit greater points to the effort, which favors you. I would
> suggets archers in 6-stand units and Slavs in 4-stand units. Buy
two
> of each.
>
> 3. Mixing the MI bow in with the spear units might be a good idea
> some places, but not against the armies you will fight around here.
> If you put them in the third rank, the fire density does nothing.
In
> the second rank, you rish being charged that way and only get one
> rank fighting.
>
> 4. Buy some 8-stand spear units. Everyone in this area will not
agree
> with this statement, but I really like the way you can start 2-
stand
> wide and 4-stands deep, offering you the ability to expand on
either
> flank and still move an inch. If you have lights to help set you
up,
> you actually get more total movement this way. In addition, reading
> the factor chart, knights have a very difficult time getting a
recoil
> when you are two wide and four deep.
>
> 5. Remember, that for mounted to charge your steady spearmen, they
> must be part of a comment under attack orders. This is and can be
> important. Read the orders section very carefully, taking special
> note of the madnatory advance required under these orders.
>
> 6. Don't mix your generals in with the large spearmen units. This
is
> just too dangerous. Buy them as two stand units that will dive into
> protracted battles by your main line. Less risky and highly
effective.
>
> 7. What are the Varangians going to be used for, and are they the
> most cost effective way to accomplish this goal? Do they really
kill
> anything that the spearment cannot also kill if you help them get
to
> impetuous charge reach? Is that going to come up enough times to
> validate the cost?
>
> 8. Bulgars are your clear choice as the cavarly arm for all the
> reasons expressed here.
>
> 9. Ewan McNay made a very casual statement on this board quite some
> time ago, that has really stuck with me. While heavily paraphrased,
> the overriding point was that armies exist as "movement" armies
> or "hard target armies", and that there was great risk in trying to
> do both ... in effect trying to be all things to all people.
Clearly
> this is a hard target army, and like a big strong, physical
football
> team, you want to deny the enemy any easy gifts, but instead make
him
> out execute you to beat you.
>
> Hope this might help ... g
>
> P.S. If you are short spearmen, I have a ton.
>
>
>
> --- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, jmgarlic@a... wrote:
> > Hi All,
> >
> > List seems pretty quiet on lists lately, so perhaps a good
> time to
> > seek some input on an army list I am considering taking to the
> Republic of Texas
> > Championships (ROTC) as the lone representative for the Warrior
> delegation
> > from the Republic of the Rio Grande.
> >
> > I have played Russ several times, but am always tweaking at list
> since it has
> > quite a few options and I am never quite satisfied. I often seem
> to run into
> > problems with not having enough units. Here's one list I have
run
> and am
> > looking for input on (I seem to be solid on defense, but never
have
> enough
> > offensive oomph). Of late I seem to encounter knights and more
> knights every time I
> > turn around. Last time I used this list, the Varangian Spearmen
> were the
> > target of choice for those knights
> >
> > 4E Varangian CinC LHI 2HCW Sh w/P and 3E Warriors Irr B LHI
2HCW
> Sh
> > 6E Varangian 3E Axemen Irr C LMI 2HCW Sh and 3E Spearmen Irr C
LMI
> JLS Sh
> >
> > 6E Varangian 3E Axemen Irr C LMI 2HCW Sh and 3E Spearmen Irr C
LMI
> JLS Sh
> >
> > 6E Varangian Spearmen Irr C MI JLS Sh
> > 6E Varangian Spearmen Irr C MI JLS Sh
> > 4E Varangian Archers Irr C LMI JLS B Sh w/det. 2E Beserkir Irr
A
> LMI 2SA
> >
> > 4E Russ SubGen HI LTS JLS Sh w/P, and Irr C 1E HI LTS JLS Sh,
> 2E MI LTS
> > JLS Sh
> > 9E Russ Irr C 6E MI LTS JLS Sh and 3E MI B
> > 4E Druzhina Irr B 1/2 2HCW Sh and 1/2 JLS Sh
> >
> > 4E Pecheneg Ally HC JLS B Sh w/P and 3E Nobles Irr B HC JLS B
Sh
> > 4E Pecheneg Horse Archers Irr C B Sh
> > 4E Pecheneg Horse Archers Irr C B Sh
> > 4E Pecheneg Horse Archers Irr C B Sh
> > 8E Pecheneg Wagon Defenders Irr C LMI B
> > 8E Pecheneg Wagon Defenders Irr C LMI B
> >
> > Please note that in some lists with Pechenegs it says you must
> purchase wagon
> > laager to get defenders, but doesn't say that in Russ list. Not
> sure if that
> > was an oversight.
> >
> > One of these days I want to build an Early Russian (Aleksandr
> Nevski) list,
> > but it may require too much finesse for me at this time.
> >
> > Thanks for any input,
> > John Garlic
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
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>
>
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> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]