Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 4/30/2004 12:20:43 Central Daylight Time,
ewan.mcnay@... writes:
I
think that the list is not suited to open tournament play.>>

Ewan, I very much appreciate you couching your comments in these terms.
Certainly not every list is so suited, and it is useful to frame a discussion of
a
list into its utility in opens vice themes. Thank you.
Jon


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Below are two different lists. First is a conventional 1st Crusader
list at 1200 points. any productive commentary is welcome. I would
certainly like to hear from those who have a period interest as well
as the experts. Second is an later crusader list at 1600 points. In
this list I need some direction since I'm obviously lopsided in my
approach and can't strike what I would consider a balance.


1st Crusader

CNC +2E HK/HC L/sh
4x2E IrgA/B HK/HC L/sh
2x2E RgC LC J/B/sh
2x6E IrgC/D HI/MI J/sh B/J
1x6E IrgC/D MI LTS/sh CB
1x12E IrgA/C/D LMI J/sh J IPW
2x6E IrgD LI B/sh B
1x6E IrgC LI J/sh


Later Crusader

CNC +2E HK L/sh
2x2E IrgA/B HK L/sh
2x2E IrgB HK L/sh
3x4E IrgC LC L/B/sh
2x6E IrgC/D HI/MI LTS/sh CB
2x6E IrgE LMI B
4x6E IrgD LI B
2x4E Reg C LHI/LMI CB
1x4E Reg C LMI B/sh
2x6E IrgB/C LMI B/sh


In the first list, I am posting a typical "conventional" crusader
list with little gimicry. I post it mainly as a contrasting
mechanism to my second list. The later list has much of what makes a
workable army at 1600 points, but I have no means by which to stop
elephants, little other than shooting to address SHK, and nothing
substantial to thwart massed regular shooters. I included the arie-
ban simply as a fun shot force march set of units. Sort of make him
work through them to get at me. There is a lack of anti-LI other
than the L armed LC.

commentary welcome
boyd

[Ewan McNay]

I don't have a lot of comments (or comment time); the first list
I quite like, and I assume that the CinC has a PA to make the HI
impetuous if needed. The MI LTS/CB are clearly a liability, too
bad. At 1200 this seems pretty viable.

I've tried to put together a Later Crusader list that I would be
happy to play, and failed . Certainly the problems you have
encountered are real, but I don't have solutions - sorry. I
think that the list is not suited to open tournament play.

Wanax Andron wrote:

> Below are two different lists. First is a conventional 1st Crusader
> list at 1200 points. any productive commentary is welcome. I would
> certainly like to hear from those who have a period interest as well
> as the experts. Second is an later crusader list at 1600 points. In
> this list I need some direction since I'm obviously lopsided in my
> approach and can't strike what I would consider a balance.
>
>
> 1st Crusader
>
> CNC +2E HK/HC L/sh
> 4x2E IrgA/B HK/HC L/sh
> 2x2E RgC LC J/B/sh
> 2x6E IrgC/D HI/MI J/sh B/J
> 1x6E IrgC/D MI LTS/sh CB
> 1x12E IrgA/C/D LMI J/sh J IPW
> 2x6E IrgD LI B/sh B
> 1x6E IrgC LI J/sh
>
>
> Later Crusader
>
> CNC +2E HK L/sh
> 2x2E IrgA/B HK L/sh
> 2x2E IrgB HK L/sh
> 3x4E IrgC LC L/B/sh
> 2x6E IrgC/D HI/MI LTS/sh CB
> 2x6E IrgE LMI B
> 4x6E IrgD LI B
> 2x4E Reg C LHI/LMI CB
> 1x4E Reg C LMI B/sh
> 2x6E IrgB/C LMI B/sh
>
>
> In the first list, I am posting a typical "conventional" crusader
> list with little gimicry. I post it mainly as a contrasting
> mechanism to my second list. The later list has much of what makes a
> workable army at 1600 points, but I have no means by which to stop
> elephants, little other than shooting to address SHK, and nothing
> substantial to thwart massed regular shooters. I included the arie-
> ban simply as a fun shot force march set of units. Sort of make him
> work through them to get at me. There is a lack of anti-LI other
> than the L armed LC.
>
> commentary welcome
> boyd
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, Ewan McNay <ewan.mcnay@y...>
wrote:
> I don't have a lot of comments (or comment time); the first list
> I quite like, and I assume that the CinC has a PA to make the HI
> impetuous if needed. The MI LTS/CB are clearly a liability, too
> bad. At 1200 this seems pretty viable.

The PA is standard issue for the CNC. The LTS guys could be taken as
JLS, but the need for infantry that can take lance charging
necessitates it. The CB are just filler to make it a 20 man unit 2E
wide...best of a bad thing :)

I added two LI units and upgraded the kniggits to HK fronts for the
cost of 2 LHI 2HCW units, and I regrouped the pilgrims into the
forlorne hope that always rolls down on impact or fails the waver as
eagar "D"s. I rather liked running them in two units as IrgA/D LMI B
and IrgE LMI IPW, but against my current opponant's army this
configuration is....sub-optimal. After the LB blister the irregular
LMI B, the reduction from tired and disorder negates the irreg A
bonus. :)

In the last 6 games the Danish crusaders have made and broke my army
3 times each. They are a liablilty unless facing elephants, since
everyone has knights running around these days, and as my line is so
rigid they are forced into the role of firebrigade simply becuase
they are more mobile. Unlike Varangians, they require proximity of
the PA standard and flank security to charge productively.

I still am trying to figure out how to get the LHI CB guys involved,
since they have nice factors vs most mounted. But again, these guys
are shaking machines in the open after one good shot that does little
more than force the enemy to charge into them ;)


> I've tried to put together a Later Crusader list that I would be
> happy to play, and failed . Certainly the problems you have
> encountered are real, but I don't have solutions - sorry. I
> think that the list is not suited to open tournament play.

The biggest problem I have is that the infantry are so damned
uncoordinatable with each other or the mounted. If I put the regular
B and CB to work with the HK and screen off the rest of the field
with LI, then the screen will fail and draw off the HK as a reaction
which in turn leaves the LHI exposed to enemy mounted. As it is,
this army needs maximum brush, no woods, and some uproll shots early
on from the irregular shooters. It is really too bad, because I love
LC L/B/sh. That is what brought me orignially to Nikephorians in
TOG...Trapazitoi LC! But you can't just run an army to feild three
units of LC ;)

boyd