Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

I'm used to playing with successor armies , but have a Berber army,
but not used it for years. Well I put two 1300 point armies out on
the table Seleucid V Berber (Almohad) ...the Berbers look to be in
trouble they are out numbered heaps, anyone got any interesting army
lists for Berbers?, I think the Almohads are too expensive with Ireg
A LC and a PAS !!!!.

Kingo

[Todd Schneider]

Check out the Berber list used in the 2003 NICT List. Ewan McNay did a
write up on each of the lists used, and the Berber one, at least In My
Opinion, looks like a really good list to me. They have, at least to my
somehwaty trained eye, a good mix of foot and Cav Units, and the ability of
the Late List to Take a Spanish Christian Sub Gen with the accompanying
Knights and Almughavers is a big plus. Course, that could be beceucase I
face Almughavers a lot and see what they can do…



If I wasn’t invested already in Romans, I would probably be working on them.
As it is, they’re 3rd on the list….



Todd



_____

From: Alex King [mailto:tors1@...]
Sent: Friday, May 14, 2004 9:19 PM
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [WarriorRules] Berbers



I'm used to playing with successor armies , but have a Berber army,
but not used it for years. Well I put two 1300 point armies out on
the table Seleucid V Berber (Almohad) ...the Berbers look to be in
trouble they are out numbered heaps, anyone got any interesting army
lists for Berbers?, I think the Almohads are too expensive with Ireg
A LC and a PAS !!!!.

Kingo








Yahoo! Groups Sponsor



ADVERTISEMENT
HYPERLINK
"http://rd.yahoo.com/SIG=1290ismrt/M=295196.4901138.6071305.3001176/D=groups
/S=1705059080:HM/EXP=1084674204/A=2128215/R=0/SIG=10se96mf6/*http:/companion
.yahoo.com"click here


HYPERLINK
"http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=295196.4901138.6071305.3001176/D=groups/S=
:HM/A=2128215/rand=863529450"



_____

Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
HYPERLINK
"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WarriorRules/"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/W
arriorRules/

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
HYPERLINK
"mailto:WarriorRules-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe"Warrior
Rules-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the HYPERLINK
"http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/"Yahoo! Terms of Service.


---
Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.684 / Virus Database: 446 - Release Date: 5/13/2004



---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.684 / Virus Database: 446 - Release Date: 5/13/2004



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ta mate, just finished printing them out, the Seleucids are a bit different
to my list too, all good for the little grey cells.

Kingo

----- Original Message -----
From: "Todd Schneider" <thresh1642@...>
To: <WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, May 15, 2004 3:32 PM
Subject: RE: [WarriorRules] Berbers


> Check out the Berber list used in the 2003 NICT List. Ewan McNay did a
> write up on each of the lists used, and the Berber one, at least In My
> Opinion, looks like a really good list to me. They have, at least to my
> somehwaty trained eye, a good mix of foot and Cav Units, and the ability
of
> the Late List to Take a Spanish Christian Sub Gen with the accompanying
> Knights and Almughavers is a big plus. Course, that could be beceucase I
> face Almughavers a lot and see what they can do.
>
>
>
> If I wasn't invested already in Romans, I would probably be working on
them.
> As it is, they're 3rd on the list..
>
>
>
> Todd
>
>
>
> _____
>
> From: Alex King [mailto:tors1@...]
> Sent: Friday, May 14, 2004 9:19 PM
> To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [WarriorRules] Berbers
>
>
>
> I'm used to playing with successor armies , but have a Berber army,
> but not used it for years. Well I put two 1300 point armies out on
> the table Seleucid V Berber (Almohad) ...the Berbers look to be in
> trouble they are out numbered heaps, anyone got any interesting army
> lists for Berbers?, I think the Almohads are too expensive with Ireg
> A LC and a PAS !!!!.
>
> Kingo
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
>
>
> ADVERTISEMENT
> HYPERLINK
>
"http://rd.yahoo.com/SIG=1290ismrt/M=295196.4901138.6071305.3001176/D=groups
>
/S=1705059080:HM/EXP=1084674204/A=2128215/R=0/SIG=10se96mf6/*http:/companion
> .yahoo.com"click here
>
>
> HYPERLINK
>
"http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=295196.4901138.6071305.3001176/D=groups/S=
> :HM/A=2128215/rand=863529450"
>
>
>
> _____
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> HYPERLINK
>
"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WarriorRules/"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/W
> arriorRules/
>
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HYPERLINK
>
"mailto:WarriorRules-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe"Warrior
> Rules-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the HYPERLINK
> "http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/"Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
> ---
> Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.684 / Virus Database: 446 - Release Date: 5/13/2004
>
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.684 / Virus Database: 446 - Release Date: 5/13/2004
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

[Mark Stone]

Quoting "WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com" <WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com>:

> Message: 6
> Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 02:19:26 -0000
> From: "Alex King" <tors1@...>
> Subject: Berbers
>
> I'm used to playing with successor armies , but have a Berber army,
> but not used it for years. Well I put two 1300 point armies out on
> the table Seleucid V Berber (Almohad) ...the Berbers look to be in
> trouble they are out numbered heaps, anyone got any interesting army
> lists for Berbers?, I think the Almohads are too expensive with Ireg
> A LC and a PAS !!!!.
>

Well, any list on which you can get "El Cid" as a general has to be a good
thing. I have given, and continue to give, serious consideration to this list
for running at Cold Wars, because you can't beat El Cid for historical appeal
and because it's actually a pretty solid, well-balanced list. Here's a recent
take I put together on 1600 points:

CinC w/2 stands Irr B/C HC L,Sh
Sub w/2 stands Irr B/C HC L,Sh
Sub w/Irr B/C EHK/HC L,Sh
2 x2 stands Irr B EHK/HK L,Sh
2 x3 stands Irr B LMI HTW,JLS,Sh/HTW,JLS/HTW,JLS
1 x6 stands Irr B LMI HTW,JLS,Sh/HTW,JLS,Sh/HTW,JLS
1 x8 stands Irr C LC L,Sh
2 x6 stands Reg C LMI B,Sh
2 x6 stands Irr C MI LTS,JLS,Sh
1 x8 stands Irr C LI S,Sh/B,Sh
2 x6 stands Irr C LI JLS,Sh

Some points to keep in mind: The knights are counter-strike troops, either
waiting for your opponent to commit, or waiting for the "Moogs" to slam into
something disordering it. The LC is required, and by taking it with L you can
put it _behind_ your LI, and thus pretty much guarantee that enemy LC won't be
charging your LI (since being charged next bound by L-armed LC will just about
guarantee that the enemy LC rout in turn). I've debated the "Moog"
configuration with others, and most people don't like the way I do it, but
there's a good reason. Suppose you're up against a 32 figure pike block. You'll
hit with HTW=5 +1 (JLS) +1 (charging) +2 (impetuous) = 9. Well, 9@9 doesn't get
you to the needed 96 casualties for 3 CPF. 5@9, however, gets you to 48. So if
you can do 5@9 with 2 units, you can rout pikemen at contact. That means you
need two smaller units in column rather than one big unit. In return, the pikes
will do 8@3=20, which disorders you (bad) if you are a 6 figure unit, but not
if you are a 9 figure unit (counting as 8 in a 3-rank column). That's how I
arrived at this configuration.

There are _lots_ of valid ways to play the Berbers; this is just one idea.


-Mark Stone

[Mark Stone]

Quoting "WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com" <WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com>:

> Message: 16
> Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 11:25:56 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Todd Schneider <thresh1642@...>
> Subject: List for feedback
>
> Here's the List I came up with:
>
> 2E CINC Irr B HC L, Sh @ 160 pts
> 2E SubG Irr B HC L, Sh @ 110 pts
> 2E SubG Irr B EHK L, Sh @ 130 pts
>
> 3 x 4E Berber Cavalry Irr C LC L, Sh @ 73 each, 219
> total

Well, I'm of the opinion that Irr LC lacking a missile weapon are a real
liability. Take them in the minimum number possible and either put them behind
the line as backup to prevent enemy LC from charging your LI, or put them on
the line against enemy LC that they hope to charge off before getting shot to
pieces.

> 2 x 6E Berber Spearmen Reg C MI LTS, JLS, Sh @ 130
> each

I'm torn about reg vs. irreg here. Yes, reg is overall the better way to go, for
the reasons you give, but this is a list with pretty high minimums, so spending
more than you have to on required troops is questionable. I think I'd take
Ewan's advice and buy them as regs, but without the LTS in the back.

> 2 x 6E Javelinmen Irr C LI JLS, Sh @ 61 each
> 10E Slingers Irr C LI S, Sh @ 85
> 6E Archers Irr C LI B, Sh @ 61
> 2 x 2E Spanish Cavalry Irr B EHK L, Sh @ 111 each
> 3 x 4E Christian Moogs Irr B LMI 1/2 HTW, JLS, Sh; 1/2
> HTW, JLS @ 79 Each
>

The big thing missing here is the reg LMI bowmen you can buy. They make a huge
difference to the army, stiffening up your skirmisher line and presenting a
real threat to elephants and a fair amount of cav.

I actually have a version of this list that I put together when Holy Warrior
first came out, thinking I might well use this list at Cold Wars -- it's much
better on 2000 points, where the high minimums don't hurt so much. I did put
together a 1600 point variant, just to see what it looked like:

CinC w/2 stands Irr B/C HC L,Sh
Sub w/1 stand Irr B EHK L,Sh + 1 stand Irr C HC L,Sh
1x 2 stands Irr C HC L,Sh
2x 2 stands Irr B EHK/HK L,Sh
1x 8 stands Irr C LC L,Sh
2x 6 stands Irr C LI JLS,Sh
1x 6 stands Irr C LI B,Sh
1x 4 stands Irr C LI S,Sh
2x 6 stands Reg C LMI B,Sh
2x 6 stands Reg C MI LTS,JLS,Sh/JLS,Sh
2x 3 stands Irr B LMI HTW,JLS,Sh/HTW,JLS/HTW,JLS
1x 6 stands Irr B LMI HTW,JLS,Sh/HTW,JLS,Sh/HTW,JLS

17 units, 1603 points, 40 scouting points

The configuration of the "Moogs" requires some explanation. First, even though
it's more expensive to run them this way, you'll find if you do the math that
they have considerably more staying power run three ranks deep rather than two
ranks deep. Second, against large blocks of foot (32 figures) you need to hit
those blocks as two single element wide units, not as one two element wide
unit. The reason for this is that 9@9=86 casualties, which is _not_ 3 CPF,
whereas 5@9=48, and 48*2=96 which _is_ 3 CPF. It's the difference between being
able to rout large bodies of foot at contact (good) and having to slug it out
with them over several bounds (bad).

Berbers is a fine list. A little tough on 1600 points, but still very playable.
The skirmishers are not quite good enough to give you a consistent advantage in
the skirmisher exchange, but they are good enough to keep you from getting in
trouble in that stage of the game. Ultimately success depends on getting the
Moogs or the LMI archers to create a disruption that the cavalry can then
exploit. That's another reason to take the archers: they create a threat
against various troop types that the Moogs don't threaten. By taking the
archers as well, you become more than a one trick army.


-Mark Stone

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 7/2/2004 01:37:11 Central Daylight Time,
mark@... writes:

> 3 x 4E Berber Cavalry Irr C LC L, Sh @ 73 each, 219
> total

Well, I'm of the opinion that Irr LC lacking a missile weapon are a real
liability.


I used to think so too. But having been 'forced' to use Jinetes in my year
of Medieval Spanish, I have found that they teach one to split fire on the
other guy's LC with something paired with the Irr C LC JLS, Sh and chase away
the enemy LC quite nicely.

Jon


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Ewan McNay]

Mark Stone wrote:
>>3 x 4E Berber Cavalry Irr C LC L, Sh @ 73 each, 219
>
> Well, I'm of the opinion that Irr LC lacking a missile weapon are a real
> liability. Take them in the minimum number possible and either put them behind
> the line as backup to prevent enemy LC from charging your LI, or put them on
> the line against enemy LC that they hope to charge off before getting shot to
> pieces.

I agree with those two uses - which is why (i) I'd take them in 4E
blocks rather than an 8E unit as below, and (ii) I don't rate them as
*completely* useless.

See below for comment on cav organisation.

>>2 x 6E Berber Spearmen Reg C MI LTS, JLS, Sh @ 130
>
> I'm torn about reg vs. irreg here. Yes, reg is overall the better way to go,
for
> the reasons you give, but this is a list with pretty high minimums, so
spending
> more than you have to on required troops is questionable. I think I'd take
> Ewan's advice and buy them as regs, but without the LTS in the back.

I take Tim's point, though - double-armed and irreg is also viable.

> I actually have a version of this list that I put together when Holy Warrior
> first came out, thinking I might well use this list at Cold Wars -- it's much
> better on 2000 points, where the high minimums don't hurt so much. I did put
> together a 1600 point variant, just to see what it looked like:

Oh, Mark. "Minimums"? Twice, no less .

> CinC w/2 stands Irr B/C HC L,Sh
> Sub w/1 stand Irr B EHK L,Sh + 1 stand Irr C HC L,Sh
> 1x 2 stands Irr C HC L,Sh
> 2x 2 stands Irr B EHK/HK L,Sh
> 1x 8 stands Irr C LC L,Sh
> 2x 6 stands Irr C LI JLS,Sh
> 1x 6 stands Irr C LI B,Sh
> 1x 4 stands Irr C LI S,Sh
> 2x 6 stands Reg C LMI B,Sh
> 2x 6 stands Reg C MI LTS,JLS,Sh/JLS,Sh
> 2x 3 stands Irr B LMI HTW,JLS,Sh/HTW,JLS/HTW,JLS
> 1x 6 stands Irr B LMI HTW,JLS,Sh/HTW,JLS,Sh/HTW,JLS

I think you have your Sub as Spanish Christian, but with a Berber
second rank - right? I think that might actually be legal, which is
very sleazy . Otherwise of course you have an extra element of
Berber cav to buy, which messes up the list, and makes a clear example
of the problems that the high minima are causing.

> Berbers is a fine list. A little tough on 1600 points, but still very
playable.
> The skirmishers are not quite good enough to give you a consistent advantage
in
> the skirmisher exchange, but they are good enough to keep you from getting in
> trouble in that stage of the game. Ultimately success depends on getting the
> Moogs or the LMI archers to create a disruption that the cavalry can then
> exploit. That's another reason to take the archers: they create a threat
> against various troop types that the Moogs don't threaten. By taking the
> archers as well, you become more than a one trick army.

Agreed on the latter part, but Mark ranks the army in general more
highly than I do.