Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[joncleaves]

You're right that Scott is the man for this, but my $.02:

1. I do not think it cripples the list.
2. Even if it did, if that is what they were in real life, that is what they
will be in the list.

[Greg Regets]

This is more for the "List Horseman" more than Jon.

I was wondering if there was going to be any accommidation for the Byzantine
lists based on the new lance and a half rule enacted in 7.6 and Warrior?

This rule has basically crippled Byzantine HC/EHC in the Thematic through
Nicephorian periods. The fact that you have to buy so much of it, basically
cripples the whole list.

I'm sure others have commented on this. I was wondering if you had any
thoughts.

Greg ~Byzantine Lover~

[joncleaves]

Greg

Lance from back rank a game effect. Remember that in HTH (and shooting),
steady EHC front is still all EHC. Only a prob if disordered in HTH. It is
NOT an old wedge.

Jon

[joncleaves]

Would one of you two please state exactly what the issue is? I'm clearly not
getting it.

[Greg Regets]

Wait a second ... weren't you on the side of the "Help The Swiss, Because
the Rules Screw Them" guys, :-)

This is another example of a game forcing history on those that lived it.
I'm sure a crafty Byzantine would have put a lance in the back rank, if they
would have known that some day Warrior would let them fight with it!

Greg

P.S. I mostly play Comnenen anyway, and they got a big boost with the new
rules. There is something wrong there when Basils boys get screwed and the
Comnenans get a boost ... but it eludes me!



-----Original Message-----
From: JonCleaves@... [mailto:JonCleaves@...]
Sent: Friday, March 09, 2001 3:23 PM
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] Byzantine Lists


You're right that Scott is the man for this, but my $.02:

1. I do not think it cripples the list.
2. Even if it did, if that is what they were in real life, that is what
they will be in the list.


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Kollmer wrote:

I am so glad Greg brought up this point. Was it because I asked about
HC L,sh Figures??
Being one of the fore-memtioned Byzantinophile(is there such a
word),I also realized quite quickly(surprising for me since those of
you who know me,I am not quick to know anything), the lance rule
really hurt my EHC (I still looking for the HC, Thanks for the info
on figures Bill L and Todd K). I have conferred with another player
who has byzantine EHC and we coming up with some other configurations
to make them more effective. I haven't tried them in a game yet, but
since I want play myNike or Commenan at Historicon, I need to come up
with something.

I know that Jon isn't going to doing anything with the rules, but
back in 6th ed. There used to be a formation called "African" which
allowed the horse archers in the EHC unit to skirmish somewhat. Would
this be something for a list rule or maybe the X files. Maybe , this
would be a way to make the EHC somewhat more effective.

As Greg points out, you have to get them and they are not CHEAP. I
realize that there is probably not much to be done, but Greg's point
does need to be addressed.

[Greg Regets]

Your Comnenans get a HUGE boost in 15mm with the lance and a half rule. The
tactic of drowning the enemy with light cavalry, then smacking a vulnerable
point with knights, is tough to beat.

Greg

-----Original Message-----
From: ekollmer@... [mailto:ekollmer@...]
Sent: Friday, March 09, 2001 4:37 PM
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [WarriorRules] byzantine lists


Kollmer wrote:

I am so glad Greg brought up this point. Was it because I asked about
HC L,sh Figures??
Being one of the fore-memtioned Byzantinophile(is there such a
word),I also realized quite quickly(surprising for me since those of
you who know me,I am not quick to know anything), the lance rule
really hurt my EHC (I still looking for the HC, Thanks for the info
on figures Bill L and Todd K). I have conferred with another player
who has byzantine EHC and we coming up with some other configurations
to make them more effective. I haven't tried them in a game yet, but
since I want play myNike or Commenan at Historicon, I need to come up
with something.

I know that Jon isn't going to doing anything with the rules, but
back in 6th ed. There used to be a formation called "African" which
allowed the horse archers in the EHC unit to skirmish somewhat. Would
this be something for a list rule or maybe the X files. Maybe , this
would be a way to make the EHC somewhat more effective.

As Greg points out, you have to get them and they are not CHEAP. I
realize that there is probably not much to be done, but Greg's point
does need to be addressed.



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[Greg Regets]

No, its not an old wedge ... its far superior! Irregulars don't have to
spend movement forming it to fight five, and you don't revert disordered if
you don't break your opponent.

G

-----Original Message-----
From: JonCleaves@... [mailto:JonCleaves@...]
Sent: Friday, March 09, 2001 5:33 PM
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] Byzantine Lists


Greg

Lance from back rank a game effect. Remember that in HTH (and shooting),
steady EHC front is still all EHC. Only a prob if disordered in HTH. It is

NOT an old wedge.

Jon


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[Greg Regets]

The issue is simple enough ... and really not your doing rules wise.

Everyone knows the Byzantine cavalry got screwed with the rank and a half
for all lancers, because most of their cavalry does not get it. As this is
about 400+ points of most Byzantine armies (AND you get to put your Generals
with them too!), this tends to hampers these armies quite a bit.

I was just wondering if the list Horseman was planning on addressing this?
The historical intent of the troop type is clear, to give those that fight a
lance, and those in the back a bow ... its the rule that fouls them up.

Greg



-----Original Message-----
From: JonCleaves@... [mailto:JonCleaves@...]
Sent: Friday, March 09, 2001 5:34 PM
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] byzantine lists


Would one of you two please state exactly what the issue is? I'm clearly
not
getting it.


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I think Greg stated it pretty well. I will not add much to his
statement. I understand(as Greg stated) it is really not your problem
Jon.

Guess, when Greg brought up the issue, it hit a sore point with me. I
started playing during 6th ed. My EHC could go into "african" plus
the lancers could throw their darts charging in. 7th ed comes along
and they drop the darts and "african". Ok. I can deal , I still can
support shoot going in with the charge. Now , other lancers get rank
and half, it seems the EHC and getting worse and worse.

It sounds like I am really sour about everything. I am not. I am
really enthused about WARRIOR. I cannot applaud Jon and the other
horsemen enough. And to be perfectly honest, WARRIOR has in many ways
helped my NIKES. I am true believer of WARRIOR.Keep up the good work
Jon.AMEN




--- In WarriorRules@y..., Greg Regets <greg@p...> wrote:
> The issue is simple enough ... and really not your doing rules
wise.
>
> Everyone knows the Byzantine cavalry got screwed with the rank and
a half
> for all lancers, because most of their cavalry does not get it. As
this is
> about 400+ points of most Byzantine armies (AND you get to put your
Generals
> with them too!), this tends to hampers these armies quite a bit.
>
> I was just wondering if the list Horseman was planning on
addressing this?
> The historical intent of the troop type is clear, to give those
that fight a
> lance, and those in the back a bow ... its the rule that fouls them
up.
>
> Greg
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: JonCleaves@a... [mailto:JonCleaves@a...]
> Sent: Friday, March 09, 2001 5:34 PM
> To: WarriorRules@y...
> Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] byzantine lists
>
>
> Would one of you two please state exactly what the issue is? I'm
clearly
> not
> getting it.
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> WarriorRules-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Greg! SORRY
I forgot to thank you for that Commenan tactic. I will try that on my
son Matt. Maybe , I can beat him this time.
ED THE BYZANTINOPHILE





--- In WarriorRules@y..., Greg Regets <greg@p...> wrote:
> The issue is simple enough ... and really not your doing rules
wise.
>
> Everyone knows the Byzantine cavalry got screwed with the rank and
a half
> for all lancers, because most of their cavalry does not get it. As
this is
> about 400+ points of most Byzantine armies (AND you get to put your
Generals
> with them too!), this tends to hampers these armies quite a bit.
>
> I was just wondering if the list Horseman was planning on
addressing this?
> The historical intent of the troop type is clear, to give those
that fight a
> lance, and those in the back a bow ... its the rule that fouls them
up.
>
> Greg
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: JonCleaves@a... [mailto:JonCleaves@a...]
> Sent: Friday, March 09, 2001 5:34 PM
> To: WarriorRules@y...
> Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] byzantine lists
>
>
> Would one of you two please state exactly what the issue is? I'm
clearly
> not
> getting it.
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> WarriorRules-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

[Ed Forbes]

I have never liked the rank and a half for lancers as it is being done.

As this is supposed to simulate shock cav, those armed ONLY with a lance
( no distance weapon ) should get it. There is a big difference in the
mind set of those trained to push to h-t-h and those that have a distance
weapon able hang back.

I have yet to hear any reasonable rebuttal to this view. Even the army
lists that give wedge generally only give it to those without distance
weapons. I discount the light cav from this statement that had been
given wedge as a way of increasing their historically known advantage
over other light cav.

Ed F

On Fri, 9 Mar 2001 16:19:06 -0600 Greg Regets <greg@...>
writes:
> Wait a second ... weren't you on the side of the "Help The Swiss,
> Because
> the Rules Screw Them" guys,
>
> This is another example of a game forcing history on those that
> lived it.
> I'm sure a crafty Byzantine would have put a lance in the back rank,
> if they
> would have known that some day Warrior would let them fight with it!
>
> Greg
>
> P.S. I mostly play Comnenen anyway, and they got a big boost with
> the new
> rules. There is something wrong there when Basils boys get screwed
> and the
> Comnenans get a boost ... but it eludes me!
>
>
>


>

[Chris Bump]

Jon,

I find myself starting to lean in the same direction. The rationale for rank
and a half lance as I understood it dealt with the performance of French
Knights vs German in
WRG and how they should have borne out historically. The rank and half have
made all lancers the equal of the Teutonic Knights and hobbled the highly
effective Byzantine Cav which did basically re-conquer the old Roman empire.
I wonder if rank and half for lancers should not be reserved for list
modifications rather than a universal rule, rather akin to the ability to
fight with 1.5 ranks given to those troop types allowed to wedge in the older
rule set.

It just seems as we try to simplify the rules, we are losing some of the
historical flavor the various armies used to have.

Chris

[joncleaves]

Well, I am still not getting it. Are there some Byz lists that have front
rank L and back rank B only that folks think should be all L? Ok, fine, give
Scott some justification.
Know that I am on your side and no list (Byz, LIR or other) is going to go
out with front L only and back B only unless Scott can show me exact cause
why. However, that statement has nothing at all to do with the 1.5 rank L
game mechanic.

<<[someone said] I have never liked the rank and a half for lancers as it is
being done. As this is supposed to simulate shock cav, those armed ONLY with
a lance
( no distance weapon ) should get it. There is a big difference in the
mind set of those trained to push to h-t-h and those that have a distance
weapon able hang back.>>

That is not what 1.5 rank L is "supposed to simulate." Since that assertion
is wrong, the rest of your 'argument' really doesn't work. The 1.5 rank L is
not trying to show that from 30 feet back a guy with an L can reach the
enemy. It is designed to have L armed troops beat who they should beat and
lose to whom they should lose. Period. P does not reach forward 48 feet,
yet sometimes part of the fourth rank of figs fight, but we don't have to
keep revisiting that.

<>

See above. You have been reasonably rebutted, sir. The 1.5 rank L in
Warrior (which has been proven to work exactly as intended in hundreds of 7.6
games) has nothing to do with 'simulating shock cav'. It is a mechanical
improvement in the game structure to produce more historically correct
results.

<< Even the army lists that give wedge generally only give it to those
without distance weapons.>>

Because wedge is a hand-to-hand fighting style and therefore would be used by
hand-to-hand troops. The 1.5 lance in Warrior is NOT simulating wedge in any
way and is not related to it.

So, now someone tell me what the problem with EHC is?

Jon

[joncleaves]

Keep trying guys, but someone really needs to state PRECISELY what the
problems are.

<< The rank and half have made all lancers the equal of the Teutonic
Knights>>

Not so. The 1.5 rank L has eliminated the unjustifiably better performance
teutonic knights were given in previous editions. None of the FHE believes
that teutonic knights were that much better than other knights of their type.

<< and hobbled the highly effective Byzantine Cav which did basically
re-conquer the old Roman empire. >>

Please, please, please exactly how are they 'hobbled'? Exactly. Not claims
that they now suck, blow, are crappy, hobbled, spanked, whacked or lame. A
point by point on what Byz cav we are talking about, what they are armed with
now, what they should be armed with and how 1.5 ranks of L is involved.

Jon