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Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules A Four Horsemen Enterprises Rules Set
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Greg Regets Imperator

Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 2988
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Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2000 8:14 pm Post subject: Charge Questions |
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What would happen if a charge that was legal at the time of declaration, was
not then able to be properly done due to the charging unit not fitting into
the charge space?
This could happen in several situations I can think of and is only covered
on a very basic level.
Also, what if a large unit declares a charge on several smaller units only
to find that a few of the units he was charging were not legal charge
targets? Is the charge cancelled or will the large unit still go through
with charges on targets that were in fact legal?
In the past, things like this were always ruled on by an umpire. It would be
nice to see a section with cause and effect for actions that are attempted
but not able to be done.
Thanks .... Greg
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joncleaves Moderator


Joined: 29 Mar 2006 Posts: 16447
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Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2000 3:26 pm Post subject: Re: Charge Questions |
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Greg, et al.
Some clips from the rules to answer your charge questions, I think.
If a body declares a charge on more than one body, and one or more of the
targets is determined to be illegal, the charge is still legal if at least
one legal target still exists.
If, due to terrain or other bodies, there is no way for the charging body to
‘fit’ once in contact with the enemy, the charge may not be
declared.
If, after lining up, a body cannot ‘fit’ into a constraining
space (caused by terrain or another body) without making an illegal
interpenetration, the charge is cancelled. The order in which charges occur
for this purpose is determined by Combat Direction (8.1).
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joncleaves Moderator


Joined: 29 Mar 2006 Posts: 16447
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Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2000 7:36 pm Post subject: RE: Charge Questions |
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Well, technically if ten things make a charge legal and one makes it illegal,
it is..you guessed it..illegal!
But I will take a look at the wording.
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Greg Regets Imperator

Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 2988
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Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2000 11:57 pm Post subject: RE: Charge Questions |
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Greg, et al.
Some clips from the rules to answer your charge questions, I think.
If a body declares a charge on more than one body, and one or more of the
targets is determined to be illegal, the charge is still legal if at least
one legal target still exists.
If, due to terrain or other bodies, there is no way for the charging body to
‘fit’ once in contact with the enemy, the charge may not be
declared.
If, after lining up, a body cannot ‘fit’ into a constraining
space (caused by terrain or another body) without making an illegal
interpenetration, the charge is cancelled. The order in which charges occur
for this purpose is determined by Combat Direction (8.1).
>>>>GREG>>>> I see what you are saying Jon .... I guess I was hoping for
something a little less Barker'esque. These two statement would tend to
contradict each other in an instance where a larger unit was charging
several smaller ones, but after the troops were moved, it was determined
that some of the larger units elements did not actually fit. I won't even go
into why this can happen .... I'm sure you have seen it a thousand times.
Now some of the targets are legal, so according to the first paragraph of
the rules above, the charge on these units would be allowed. On the other
hand, since the chargers do not fit, the charge is cancelled. Jon, this
makes PERFECT sense to me, but I have also been playing a long time. This is
one of the few areas of the rules that I could see some difficulty in
explaining to newer players. As a rule, paragraphs that contradict each
other, even on a very basic level, tend to cause a lot of problems. These
two paragraphs do not contradict in my mind, but I can sure see how they
would to some. I think its important to remember that every Warrior
tournament will not have Scott to officiate.
>>>>GREG>>>> Perhaps the considerable brain trust at Four Horsemen will see
fit to rethink this wording to something that is a bit clearer to those that
have not been playing since the dawn of time.
>>>>GREG>>>> By the way, we have a tournament coming up next weekend and I
have been reading the rules very carefully .... I would like to say that you
are doing an excellent job on the new set. Many of 7th more difficult
concepts are very clear the way you have organized things.
Greg
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Recruit

Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 16
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Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 8:17 pm Post subject: Charge Questions |
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A Cretan LI unit in skirmish is frontally charged by Greek LI. The
Cretans evade to their rear. Immediately behind the Cretans is a unit
of LC. The Greek LI was just under 3" when charging the Cretans,
meaning the LC was about 3-3/4" away from the Greeks. Since the LC is
outside of the charge path of the Greek LI, the LC do not get a
charge response, correct? I am talking about 15mm troops, by the way.
The above scenario prompted further discussion. If the Greek LI were
close enough to reach the LC, the LC gets a charge response. They can
take the charge at a halt, or they can evade like the Cretans, or
they can counter-charge while taking a waver test, correct? Let's say
the LC counter-charges and passes their waver test. The LC is
disordered going in to combat due to the second (interpenetrate
moving bodies) and fourth bullets (interpenetrate in a counter-charge)
of 6.521, correct?
Lastly, more Cretan LI is tired of playing bolt catcher to a unit of
bolt throwers 2" away, and they charge them. Immediately to the right
and slightly behind the front of the arty was a unit of Persian LI.
The Cretan LI declares a charge only against the arty, however the
Cretan unit overlaps the arty by two elements, putting the Persian LI
in the charge path too. Since the Persian LI is in the charge path,
the charge is technically against the Persian LI too, correct? Which
means the Persian LI have normal charge reponses, even though the
Cretans did not plan to echelon forward to contact them, correct?
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Mark Mallard Centurion

Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 868 Location: Whitehaven, England
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Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2005 10:10 pm Post subject: Re: Charge Questions |
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In a message dated 01/03/2005 21:50:44 GMT Standard Time, JonCleaves@...
writes:
<<Lastly, more Cretan LI is tired of playing bolt catcher to a unit of
bolt throwers 2" away, and they charge them. Immediately to the right
and slightly behind the front of the arty was a unit of Persian LI.
The Cretan LI declares a charge only against the arty, however the
Cretan unit overlaps the arty by two elements, putting the Persian LI
in the charge path too. Since the Persian LI is in the charge path,
the charge is technically against the Persian LI too, correct? Which
means the Persian LI have normal charge reponses, even though the
Cretans did not plan to echelon forward to contact them, correct? >>
[
Correct, but the cretan LI has to echelon to cause the charge response.
J
I believe this is optional - in that you dont have to echelon and until the
eschelon is decided upon the LI is not under a charge declaration.
please correct me.
but i think this is what the poster wanted to know.
mark mallard
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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joncleaves Moderator


Joined: 29 Mar 2006 Posts: 16447
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Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2005 10:25 pm Post subject: Re: Charge Questions |
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In a message dated 3/1/2005 18:21:14 Central Standard Time,
markmallard7@... writes:
The Cretan LI declares a charge only against the arty, however the
Cretan unit overlaps the arty by two elements, putting the Persian LI
in the charge path too. Since the Persian LI is in the charge path,
the charge is technically against the Persian LI too, correct? Which
means the Persian LI have normal charge reponses, even though the
Cretans did not plan to echelon forward to contact them, correct? >>
[
Correct, but the cretan LI has to echelon to cause the charge response.
J
I believe this is optional - in that you dont have to echelon and until the
eschelon is decided upon the LI is not under a charge declaration.>>
[
Correct. Once the LI echelons, the persian LI is now in charge reach and
can make a charge response.
J
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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joncleaves Moderator


Joined: 29 Mar 2006 Posts: 16447
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Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 12:41 am Post subject: Re: Charge Questions |
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A Cretan LI unit in skirmish is frontally charged by Greek LI. The
Cretans evade to their rear. Immediately behind the Cretans is a unit
of LC. The Greek LI was just under 3" when charging the Cretans,
meaning the LC was about 3-3/4" away from the Greeks. Since the LC is
outside of the charge path of the Greek LI, the LC do not get a
charge response, correct? I am talking about 15mm troops, by the way.>>
[
Correct.
<<The above scenario prompted further discussion. If the Greek LI were
close enough to reach the LC, the LC gets a charge response. They can
take the charge at a halt, or they can evade like the Cretans, or
they can counter-charge while taking a waver test, correct? >>
[
Correct.
<<Let's say
the LC counter-charges and passes their waver test. The LC is
disordered going in to combat due to the second (interpenetrate
moving bodies) and fourth bullets (interpenetrate in a counter-charge)
of 6.521, correct?>>
[
Correct.
<<Lastly, more Cretan LI is tired of playing bolt catcher to a unit of
bolt throwers 2" away, and they charge them. Immediately to the right
and slightly behind the front of the arty was a unit of Persian LI.
The Cretan LI declares a charge only against the arty, however the
Cretan unit overlaps the arty by two elements, putting the Persian LI
in the charge path too. Since the Persian LI is in the charge path,
the charge is technically against the Persian LI too, correct? Which
means the Persian LI have normal charge reponses, even though the
Cretans did not plan to echelon forward to contact them, correct? >>
[
Correct, but the cretan LI has to echelon to cause the charge response.
J
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Recruit

Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 16
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Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 8:32 am Post subject: Re: Charge Questions |
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--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, JonCleaves@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 3/1/2005 18:21:14 Central Standard Time,
> markmallard7@a... writes:
>
> The Cretan LI declares a charge only against the arty, however
the
> Cretan unit overlaps the arty by two elements, putting the Persian
LI
> in the charge path too. Since the Persian LI is in the charge
path,
> the charge is technically against the Persian LI too, correct?
Which
> means the Persian LI have normal charge reponses, even though the
> Cretans did not plan to echelon forward to contact them, correct?
>>
> [
> Correct, but the cretan LI has to echelon to cause the charge
response.
>
> J
>
> I believe this is optional - in that you dont have to echelon and
until the
> eschelon is decided upon the LI is not under a charge
declaration.>>
> [
> Correct. Once the LI echelons, the persian LI is now in charge
reach and
> can make a charge response.
>
> J
>
OK, say the Cretans echelon that extra 1/4" to reach the Persian LI,
and the Persians wish to counter-charge, where is their meeting
point? i.e. do they split the difference from where the Cretans began
the charge originally, or at the point where they started echeloning?
It sounds like you are saying from where they started echeloning,
correct?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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joncleaves Moderator


Joined: 29 Mar 2006 Posts: 16447
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Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 6:30 pm Post subject: Re: Re: Charge Questions |
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OK, say the Cretans echelon that extra 1/4" to reach the Persian LI,
and the Persians wish to counter-charge, where is their meeting
point? i.e. do they split the difference from where the Cretans began
the charge originally, or at the point where they started echeloning? >>
[
From the start point of the charge, not from where they 'start echeloning.'
J
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Doug Centurion

Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 1412
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Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 8:30 pm Post subject: Re: Re: Charge Questions |
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>OK, say the Cretans echelon that extra 1/4" to reach the Persian LI,
>and the Persians wish to counter-charge, where is their meeting
>point? i.e. do they split the difference from where the Cretans began
>the charge originally, or at the point where they started echeloning? >>
>[
>From the start point of the charge, not from where they 'start echeloning.'
>
>J
I'm confused. IIRC (maybe I don't) the Persian LI are not a target
of the charge until the Cretans being to echelon forwards. Therefore
how can they "know" to start their own movement prior to the time at
which the echeloning begins?
And I guess a lesson is to always mark the start point of a charge in
case something unexpected happens.
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joncleaves Moderator


Joined: 29 Mar 2006 Posts: 16447
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Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 11:21 pm Post subject: Re: Re: Charge Questions |
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I'm confused. IIRC (maybe I don't) the Persian LI are not a target
of the charge until the Cretans being to echelon forwards. Therefore
how can they "know" to start their own movement prior to the time at
which the echeloning begins?>>
Everything in the path of a charge that can be reached by the charger is a
target and therfore eligible for a response.
J
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joncleaves Moderator


Joined: 29 Mar 2006 Posts: 16447
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Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 12:42 am Post subject: Re: Re: Charge Questions |
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In a message dated 3/2/2005 20:39:25 Central Standard Time,
mccoppin@... writes:
Thanks for your responses but I'm confused again... sorry. So you are
saying that the Persian LI is in the charge path of the Cretans, but
the Persian LI don't get to respond to the charge unless the Cretans
echelon forward to meet them?>>
No, sorry for the confusion, but the persians get to respond when the
Cretans charge. The local persian 'LI commander' doesn't know that the guy in
the
helicopter might not have chosen to echelon - they just see enemy charging
them...
J
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Recruit

Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 16
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Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 5:35 am Post subject: Re: Charge Questions |
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--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, JonCleaves@a... wrote:
> I'm confused. IIRC (maybe I don't) the Persian LI are not a target
> of the charge until the Cretans being to echelon forwards.
Therefore
> how can they "know" to start their own movement prior to the time
at
> which the echeloning begins?>>
>
> Everything in the path of a charge that can be reached by the
charger is a target and therfore eligible for a response.
>
> J
Thanks for your responses but I'm confused again... sorry. So you are
saying that the Persian LI is in the charge path of the Cretans, but
the Persian LI don't get to respond to the charge unless the Cretans
echelon forward to meet them? So if the Cretans echelon forward to
meet the Persians, the Cretans need to go back to their starting
point and will then meet the counter-charging Persian LI halfway from
that point? This would also likely prevent the Cretans from then
being able to echelon forward to reach the initially intended target
(the arty) effectively canceling the original charge. Is that
correct?
If the Cretans do not echelon forward, the Persian LI does not get a
charge response, even though they are in the charge path? I believe
this is what you told me in post 17056. But your previous response
indicated that any unit in a charge path get responses. I apologize
for being a pest, but I am just trying to make this clear in my mind.
Thanks
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