Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[Ewan McNay]

Ewan McNay wrote:

>
> JonCleaves@... wrote:

[actually, he didn't, but stated as correct:]

>>>(2) LI and LC can delcare a charge only if _every_ target in their charge
>>>path is a legal target. This would dramatically weaken the power of light
>>>troops from the way I have understood them to operate, but may in fact be
the
>>>correct reading, and I've just been reading it wrong.>>

[Me]
>>Naah.
>>
>>Naah.
>>
>>That's the sound of me simply not believing this answer .

[Jon]
>>Would you still feel that way given the fact that for all intents and
>>purposes your charge path does not extend beyond your charge reach? Charge
paths
>>are not infinite - they essentially end where you contact something.

[Me]
> If I have time, I'll try to add some diagrams and Qs to clarify here,
> but I (still) just can't see the truth being anything other than the
> way I (and I believe Mark, but I also believe you) have played it.

I may not need new diagrams. Stick with Mark's original for a moment.


I believe:
1. If the Brigans can contact the LC (assuming they stand) without
needing to contact the enemy SHK, they are allowed to do so - that is,
they are not forced to charge all targets whom they could possibly
reach. Correct?

2. Assuming 1 to be correct (and assuming that such contact is
possible, regardless of whether that contact is possible on the actual
diagram for the moment), the Brigans would then not be uneasy due to
charging SHK, *even if* the SHK happen to declare a charge and thus
move so that the brigans cannot avoid hitting them in the charge.
Correct?

3. OK. Now assume that the Brigans are LC (or even LI). I believe
that they can charge the LC, despite the presence of a noneligible
target - the enemy SHK - in their charge path, despite your answer
above. Correct?

Trying to make sense: are you stating that in this case, the LC would
not have a charge path that included the SHK, because they would not
be in 'charge reach' as a noneligible target? That is, the LC charge
path does not even end at contact with SHK - as you state above - but
in fact has some buffer zone limit around such enemy bodies? I can't
think of another way to try to put together the various comments thus
far - but that doesn't mean it's correct.

IF this hypothesis is correct: please try to find a moment to add to
Mark's diagram, replacing the Brigans with LC (or LI for that matter)
and shading their 'charge path'

[joncleaves]

I really suspect that something is being lost in translation between
what you (think you) are saying, and what we (think we) are hearing.>>
[
I agree that is VERY likely. I have spent a lot of time in the last 24 over
something that seems very straightforward to me. However, given Mark's mail of
this am, where he apparently thought steady HC would take a waver retiring in
front of LI, it would seem someone was missing that charge reach does have a
specific meaning and is not just simply your tactical move no matter what is in
the way.

<<If I have time, I'll try to add some diagrams and Qs to clarify here,
but I (still) just can't see the truth being anything other than the
way I (and I believe Mark, but I also believe you) have played it.>>

[
That would be cool, but the less diagrams to get this point cleared up to your
satisfaction, the better - lol

Jon

[joncleaves]

I believe:
1. If the Brigans can contact the LC (assuming they stand) without
needing to contact the enemy SHK, they are allowed to do so - that is,
they are not forced to charge all targets whom they could possibly
reach. Correct?>>

[
True. But such a charge would count as declared on the SHK if the LMI could get
there. At declarations, you make no assumptions about how the move will go -
you are charging every legal target you can get to in the path.

<<2. Assuming 1 to be correct (and assuming that such contact is
possible, regardless of whether that contact is possible on the actual
diagram for the moment), the Brigans would then not be uneasy due to
charging SHK, *even if* the SHK happen to declare a charge and thus
move so that the brigans cannot avoid hitting them in the charge.
Correct?>>
[
No. See above.

<<3. OK. Now assume that the Brigans are LC (or even LI). I believe
that they can charge the LC, despite the presence of a noneligible
target - the enemy SHK - in their charge path, despite your answer
above. Correct?>>

[
As they reach LC forst and the SHK are not a legal target, yes.

<< Trying to make sense: are you stating that in this case, the LC would
not have a charge path that included the SHK, because they would not
be in 'charge reach' as a noneligible target? >>

[
Yes, exactly what I am saying.

<< That is, the LC charge
path does not even end at contact with SHK - as you state above - but
in fact has some buffer zone limit around such enemy bodies?>>

Well, 'around' is confusing, but if I understand you, yes.

I will try and shade the charge path if I get a chance.

J

[Ewan McNay]

JonCleaves@... wrote:

>> I believe: 1. If the Brigans can contact the LC (assuming they
>> stand) without needing to contact the enemy SHK, they are allowed
>> to do so - that is, they are not forced to charge all targets whom
>> they could possibly reach. Correct?>>
>
> [ True. But such a charge would count as declared on the SHK if
> the LMI could get there. At declarations, you make no assumptions
> about how the move will go - you are charging every legal target
> you can get to in the path.

That sounds like "True. But actually, false." - that is, the LMI
*are* forced to charge the SHK, and *may not* just charge the LC,
despite your 'true' response . Right?

[joncleaves]

>> I believe: 1. If the Brigans can contact the LC (assuming they
>> stand) without needing to contact the enemy SHK, they are allowed
>> to do so - that is, they are not forced to charge all targets whom
>> they could possibly reach. Correct?>>
>
> [ True. But such a charge would count as declared on the SHK if
> the LMI could get there. At declarations, you make no assumptions
> about how the move will go - you are charging every legal target
> you can get to in the path.

That sounds like "True. But actually, false." - that is, the LMI
*are* forced to charge the SHK, and *may not* just charge the LC,
despite your 'true' response . Right?>>

Um, no. The LMI are not forced to charge everyone they could acutally reach.
But their charge counts as declared on everyone they could actually reach -
hence the cause of unease.

Again, you can't make an assumption about how the charge MOVE will actually end
up at charge DECLARATIONS - they are two separate issues. You are not made to
hit everyone you declared a charge against - and sometimes intervening events
during the execution of charge moves quite significantly modify who you can hit
and who you can't.

J

[Ewan McNay]

JonCleaves@... wrote:

>>> I believe: 1. If the Brigans can contact the LC (assuming they
>>> stand) without needing to contact the enemy SHK, they are
>>> allowed to do so - that is, they are not forced to charge all
>>> targets whom they could possibly reach. Correct?>>
>>
>> [ True. But such a charge would count as declared on the SHK if
>> the LMI could get there. At declarations, you make no
>> assumptions about how the move will go - you are charging every
>> legal target you can get to in the path.
>
>
> [Me] That sounds like "True. But actually, false." - that is, the LMI
> *are* forced to charge the SHK, and *may not* just charge the LC,
> despite your 'true' response . Right?>>
>
> [Jon] Um, no. The LMI are not forced to charge everyone they could
> acutally reach. But their charge counts as declared on everyone
> they could actually reach - hence the cause of unease.

Taking this for a moment: how do the LMI avoid charging the SHK, then,
if they are not forced to do so?

>
> Again, you can't make an assumption about how the charge MOVE will
> actually end up at charge DECLARATIONS - they are two separate
> issues. You are not made to hit everyone you declared a charge
> against - and sometimes intervening events during the execution of
> charge moves quite significantly modify who you can hit and who you
> can't.
>
> J
>
>
>
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[joncleaves]

Taking this for a moment: how do the LMI avoid charging the SHK, then,
if they are not forced to do so?>>

I am sure I am misunderstanding your question. Unless the LMI hits the LC and
SHK simultaneously, you are never REQUIRED to echelon. The diagram is not to
scale, so hard to tell if the LMI would reach the LC first and it has also to do
with the wheel Ed would declare and how much he wheeled and where that set the
charge path and how much movement he had left to go straight after he wheeled.

If you looked at the diagram and move the SHK forward half the distance between
where it is and the LMI, I think that would show a situation where hitting both
would be unavoidable.

The bottom line to this point is: you are never forced to echelon.

J

[Mark Stone]

Well, this has been a rather arduous discussion from what started out as a
simple question. Painful as it has been, I think it has helped. I have two
points I want to make, I'd like to hear Jon's response, and then hopefully we
can move on.

To the group at large:

Read the rules! What helped me most was reading the distinctions between charge
reach and charge path. Specifically, several points came out of this:
- illegal targets are not in your charge reach (hence steady SHK facing LI are
_never_ in the charge reach of LI);
- Charge reach is less than or equal to charge path, because charge reach can
stop at a body contacted, whereas charge path is "a zone as wide as a body
extending out its tactical move";
- A charge counts as declared on every legal target in its path, even though its
charge reach may not carry the charging body to every legal target.

The simplest way to answer Ed's question about why the Brigans can't be
impetuous as LMI, but could be as LI or LC, is this: the LMI have the SHK in
their charge path, but are not obligated to put them in their charge reach.
Because they are in the path, however, the SHK count as having a charge
declared on them by the Brigans, and hence become a cause of unease. If the
Brigan unit were an LI or LC unit, then the SHK are not in either the path or
the reach of the charging body, because they are not a legal target. The SHK
can, however, enter the path, thus cancelling the charge, by declaring a charge
themselves. Is that about right, Jon?

To Jon:

I think one small clarification would help this immensely. In 5.13 "Uneasy", in
bullet point 2, you use the phrase "charging, counter-charging, or declaring a
charge". What isn't obvious is that you count as declaring a charge on all
targets within reach, even if, upon executing movement, you can't or choose not
to contact all those targets. I would suggest, then, that you rephrase this
bullet point as follows:

"If charging or counter-charging with a body not of K, El, Ch, or SHI, and
steady SHK, SHC, SHCm or SHI are within its charge path."


-Mark Stone

[joncleaves]

The simplest way to answer Ed's question about why the Brigans can't be
impetuous as LMI, but could be as LI or LC, is this: the LMI have the SHK in
their charge path, but are not obligated to put them in their charge reach.>>
[
Not quite right. The SHK are in charge reach in the example - you can't choose
to have someone in your charge reach, it either is or is not. However, you
*can* choose not to echelon forward to make further contact after making initial
contact with another body. Its the echeloning that's optional - not charge
reach.

<<Because they are in the path, however, the SHK count as having a charge
declared on them by the Brigans, and hence become a cause of unease. If the
Brigan unit were an LI or LC unit, then the SHK are not in either the path or
the reach of the charging body, because they are not a legal target. The SHK
can, however, enter the path, thus cancelling the charge, by declaring a charge
themselves. Is that about right, Jon?>>
[
If the SHK charged, it would not cancel a legally declared LC charge - no.
Non-impetuous LI, yes. Those are two different things that you kinda lumped
together.

<<To Jon:

I think one small clarification would help this immensely. In 5.13 "Uneasy", in
bullet point 2, you use the phrase "charging, counter-charging, or declaring a
charge". What isn't obvious is that you count as declaring a charge on all
targets within reach, even if, upon executing movement, you can't or choose not
to contact all those targets. I would suggest, then, that you rephrase this
bullet point as follows:

"If charging or counter-charging with a body not of K, El, Ch, or SHI, and
steady SHK, SHC, SHCm or SHI are within its charge path.">>

Looks good. I am adding it to my 6.0 file for consideration. i am guessing I'd
have to change the end to charge reach, vice charge path, though - just to be
perfectly clear.

J

[Mark Stone]

I said:
>> The simplest way to answer Ed's question about why the Brigans can't be
>> impetuous as LMI, but could be as LI or LC, is this: the LMI have the SHK in
>> their charge path, but are not obligated to put them in their charge reach.>>

To which Jon replied:
> Not quite right. The SHK are in charge reach in the example - you can't choose
> to have someone in your charge reach, it either is or is not. However, you
> *can* choose not to echelon forward to make further contact after making
> initial contact with another body. Its the echeloning that's optional - not
> charge reach.

So, the problem here is that there is no mention of multiple targets in the
definition of charge reach, and no mention of charge reach -- only charge path
-- in the definition of multiple targets. The two concepts fail to connect up
given the way you have it worded, which is why I have assumed that charge path
was the relevant terminology.

Perhaps what you want to say in 6.162 instead of "between it and a potential
target" is "between it and all potential targets (if more than one, see
Multiple Targets below)".


-Mark Stone

[Steve Hollowell]

So, let me make sure I am clear on this retirement question:

LLLLL



HCHC



If L is LI and HC is HC and they are 120 paces facing each other, HC can retire
w/out taking a waver test because heavy cav is not an eligible charge target for
light infantry. Meaning, he can turn around, present his rear to the lights
while within 120 paces and walk off w/out a waver test? If so, I have taken too
many unnecessary waver tests.

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[joncleaves]

So, the problem here is that there is no mention of multiple targets in the
definition of charge reach, and no mention of charge reach -- only charge path
-- in the definition of multiple targets.>>
[
Mark, I think you are making this harder than it is and now you are starting to
scare the children...lol

<< The two concepts fail to connect up
given the way you have it worded, which is why I have assumed that charge path
was the relevant terminology.>>

The question was about unease - specifically that caused by SH troops. The
example was an LMI charge declaration that included declaring on the SHK, which
caused the brigans to be uneasy. The question - and the situation that caused
it - had NOTHING to do with charge moves - only declarations. Just because a
declaration is made does not mean the charge will actually come off during
charge moves in the way desired/intended/appeared at declaration. Evades change
things, waver tests change things, bodies coming into paths from outside them
change things, charge cancellations change things, etc.

Once this discussion turned to charge moves, we have a lot of mixing of the
apples of declarations and the oranges of moves.

The brigans charge counted as declared on everyone in the path, which included
the SHK, which made the brigans uneasy.

The rest of the discussion turned to what the brigans *could* do with their
charge move - which is interesting, but which has nothing to do with them not
being able to declare that charge impetuous.

Jon

[joncleaves]

LLLLL



HCHC



If L is LI and HC is HC and they are 120 paces facing each other, HC can retire
w/out taking a waver test because heavy cav is not an eligible charge target for
light infantry.>>
[
So long as the HC are steady and the LI are not behind the HC's flank - yes.
Illegal targets are never in charge reach and you only take a retirement waver
if you are in someone's charge reach.

J

[Doug]

>Read the rules! What helped me most was reading the distinctions
>between charge
>reach and charge path. Specifically, several points came out of this:
>
>- illegal targets are not in your charge reach (hence steady SHK facing LI are
>_never_ in the charge reach of LI);

Its very confusing that the definition of "reach" contains not only a
measurable distance component, but a situational component
(eligibility). I'd like to clearly separate reach, path, and
eligibility into three distinct items.

[Doug]

>So, let me make sure I am clear on this retirement question:
>
>LLLLL
>
>
>
>HCHC
>
>
>
>If L is LI and HC is HC and they are 120 paces facing each other, HC
>can retire w/out taking a waver test because heavy cav is not an
>eligible charge target for light infantry. Meaning, he can turn
>around, present his rear to the lights while within 120 paces and
>walk off w/out a waver test? If so, I have taken too many
>unnecessary waver tests.
>***
>
>So long as the HC are steady and the LI are not behind the HC's
>flank - yes. Illegal targets are never in charge reach and you only
>take a retirement waver if you are in someone's charge reach.
>
>Jon

But but but... how does the HC actually physically move further away
without at some point turning their backs? Even if you assume they
do it by squads, at some point the last few squads have to turn
around, and at that point would be quite vulnerable in the real
world. Even if you don't represent their turned backs on the
tabletop, it is happening, and it seems to me that the rule allowing
lights to charge the flank or rear should thus apply.