Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

Hello

there is something that has been troubling me for a while about the
way chariots are costed. In general i think chariots are a fairly
points effective option. The exception to this (to my mind at least)
is the two horse chariot. I believe this is caused by an inequity
between the cost of chariot horses and chariot crew. Chariot crew in
general are of very limited use (take it from the man who has
repeatedly used the 54 point Indian 6 man chariot). Their factors are
terrible, only two of them fight in the first round and they
contribute nothing to the units ability to soak casualties. Horses on
the other hand are the chariots chief offensive tool and are dirt
cheap (For the price of one extra crewman you can generally turn a 2
horse chariot in to a four horse) Related to this is the question of
dismounting (ie Why do you only get 1 element of foot for three of
chariots regardless of whether they have 6 crew or 1?) I realise
these are both problems that have carried over from TOG but i cant
help but wonder if other people see this as a problem as well.

martin

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 6/29/2004 22:28:58 Central Daylight Time,
martymagnificent@... writes:

No response from anyone?? The lot of the poor old 2 horse chariot
been ignored.


I, for one, am not 'ignoring' 2h LCh. I just don't agree with your
assessment of them. I agree with the idea that they are challenged in open
tourneys
where they can face troop types from 3000 years in the future...lol...but
don't see any issue with them in period.

Jon


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

No response from anyone?? The lot of the poor old 2 horse chariot
been ignored. I suppose they dont feature very largely in many figure
collections so interest in discussing them may be limited. Or has
someone actually found an effective use for them. Even in our recent
biblical theme comp very few of these poor vehicles got a look in
(compared to numbers of 4-horse chariots and cavalry). This suggests
that even in their own low powered peiod these guys are a bit of a
lemon. Points cost would only be one way of adjusting this but other
changes would probably be more difficult

martin

[Mark Mallard]

In a message dated 6/30/04 4:29:02 AM GMT Daylight Time,
martymagnificent@... writes:

No response from anyone?? The lot of the poor old 2 horse chariot
been ignored. I suppose they dont feature very largely in many figure
collections so interest in discussing them may be limited. Or has
someone actually found an effective use for them. Even in our recent
biblical theme comp very few of these poor vehicles got a look in
(compared to numbers of 4-horse chariots and cavalry). This suggests
that even in their own low powered peiod these guys are a bit of a
lemon. Points cost would only be one way of adjusting this but other
changes would probably be more difficult

martin


I was watching a game at the weekend where a 6 element 3 deep unit of my New
Kingdom Egyptian 2 horse Chariots charged and recoiled a 10 element Sassanid
Mi Bow unit that was in column. I know there was some lucky dice involved,
but i have always done ok with them myself. I also played Galation with a lot
of two horse chariots quite successfully.

I think the key with the two horse chariots is that they can skirmish or
charge making them about right at the points as they also cause unease. Also in
large units they can absorb shooting.

The above battle is not over yet as we tend to play games lasting about 5
hours and it was a late start. The Sassanids are not getting the walkover that
might be expected.

mark mallard


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[scott holder]

I also played Galation with a lot of two horse chariots quite successfully.

>You have? I have em in 25mm and always leave em in the box.

I think the key with the two horse chariots is that they can skirmish or
charge making them about right at the points as they also cause unease. Also in
large units they can absorb shooting.

>Chris Cameron had some interesting thoughts on using hordes of them when
talking about his team experiences with Mycenean's at CW.

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 6/30/2004 23:39:14 Central Daylight Time,
martymagnificent@... writes:

I cannot conceive
of a single situation where I would not upgrade a 2 horse chariot to
a four horse chariot if I had the option.>>
I agree. There is no case where a 2horse LCh is better than a 4horse LCh.
The issue is that very few armies learned to maneuver a 4horse Ch to the
'standard' required to be classed as LCh (and with only one crewman) before the
chariot left the battlefield altogether.

Jon




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 7/1/2004 00:47:30 Central Daylight Time,
martymagnificent@... writes:

> I agree. There is no case where a 2horse LCh is better than a
4horse LCh.

Shouldn't the points then reflect this??>>
4H LCh are more expensive, and more importantly much rarer.

I have gone over the point system many times here on this group. The bottom
line is that FHE is very comfortable with it. Please keep in mind that the
point system is designed to reflect rarity, training, and whole game impact
as much as sheer combat value when charging.

Jon




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi,

while i'm very aware of the few abilities that all chariots have in
general (causing unease, absorbing shooting,special breakthrough
provisions, etc) my gripe is largely about the imbalance between 2
and 4 horse chariots whether they be light or not. I cannot conceive
of a single situation where I would not upgrade a 2 horse chariot to
a four horse chariot if I had the option. At 2 points a horse I
imagine most other people would have to conclude the same. To my mind
this suggests a problem with the points. In the composition of a
chariots total point value why is a crewman worth so much compred to
a horse?? do the crew do something we dont know about here in OZ??
They've always seemed about as useful as tits on a bull to me.


Martin

> I agree. There is no case where a 2horse LCh is better than a
4horse LCh.

Shouldn't the points then reflect this??


> The issue is that very few armies learned to maneuver a 4horse Ch
to the
> 'standard' required to be classed as LCh (and with only one crewman)

Wouldn't this be another argument (rare technology) for the point
values to bettter reflect the value of the horse. Determining the
points value of a chariot largely through their crew (who in warrior
contribute very little to their fighting capabilities)is a problem. I
think the ideal would be significantly more expensive horses (say 4
rather than 2 points for each extra) and a slightly lower cost for
the chariot body and crew figures. This would result in 4 horse
chariots been about the same cost they are now (as they probably
should be) but would make 2 horse chariots somewhat cheaper.

Martin

Respectfully disagree, Martin. In fact, there are many situations where the
2horse light chariot rules the battlefield, I'll elaborate later.

Allan

----- Original Message -----
From: "martin williams" <martymagnificent@...>
To: <WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 12:38 AM
Subject: [WarriorRules] Re: chariot costs


> Hi,
>
> while i'm very aware of the few abilities that all chariots have in
> general (causing unease, absorbing shooting,special breakthrough
> provisions, etc) my gripe is largely about the imbalance between 2
> and 4 horse chariots whether they be light or not. I cannot conceive
> of a single situation where I would not upgrade a 2 horse chariot to
> a four horse chariot if I had the option. At 2 points a horse I
> imagine most other people would have to conclude the same. To my mind
> this suggests a problem with the points. In the composition of a
> chariots total point value why is a crewman worth so much compred to
> a horse?? do the crew do something we dont know about here in OZ??
> They've always seemed about as useful as tits on a bull to me.
>
>
> Martin
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

Ok, I too would always upgrade to a 4 horse light chariot whenever possible
as long as it remains a light chariot. I've been impressed with what light
chariots can do in the game on a number of occasions. For the most part they
are capable of beating light cavalry flat out. LC can't compete with the
five troops per base that chariots get in a stand up fight.

I know that a lot of ancient armies had 4 horses per chariot but I wonder
how many of these actually fought, how many were just spares for the long
campaign march, and how many were there to suck up arrows and then cut away
so they didn't get caught under the wheels.

I've always questioned the legitimacy of allowing the horses to fight in the
first place. But it's a game.

As far as crew are concerned, consider this:
With LCh, you typically get one missile crewman per chariot, however, the
first missile crewman in a chariot always gets to count as 2 shooters. Give
them javelin, and deploy them in a skirmishing column of 3 chariots. That is
4 javelins shooting shielded in skirmish with 15 troops per element of
frontage. If you focus 2 of these columns on a single target the results can
be spectacular. Anyone who wants to beat them has to figure out how to do 30
(or is it 25?) casualties to skirmishing shielded chariots to do a single
CPF. That makes it quite difficult to force a recall, which means that the
chariots likely have full options to charge or evade as the situation
dictates. That is an extremely versitile troop type, and having the 2
columns makes it that more difficult for an opponent to cancel the charge,
and improves your odds of cancelling the opponent.

I question the historical accuracy of this myself but I think you have to
make allowances in a game that covers 4500 years of war.

I have no defendable opinion on the points

Take care, Martin

Allan



----- Original Message -----
From: "martin williams" <martymagnificent@...>
To: <WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 12:38 AM
Subject: [WarriorRules] Re: chariot costs


> Hi,
>
> while i'm very aware of the few abilities that all chariots have in
> general (causing unease, absorbing shooting,special breakthrough
> provisions, etc) my gripe is largely about the imbalance between 2
> and 4 horse chariots whether they be light or not. I cannot conceive
> of a single situation where I would not upgrade a 2 horse chariot to
> a four horse chariot if I had the option. At 2 points a horse I
> imagine most other people would have to conclude the same. To my mind
> this suggests a problem with the points. In the composition of a
> chariots total point value why is a crewman worth so much compred to
> a horse?? do the crew do something we dont know about here in OZ??
> They've always seemed about as useful as tits on a bull to me.
>
>
> Martin
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>