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joncleaves Moderator


Joined: 29 Mar 2006 Posts: 16447
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Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2003 3:08 am Post subject: Re: Choose my NICT army and list for me |
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In a message dated 7/8/2003 22:01:07 Central Daylight Time,
ewan.mcnay@... writes:
> Anyway, enough of this blather. Your thoughts are welcome, but I have
> to make a decision on army and list by this weekend to get them to
> Scott by deadline!
>
Any of your elephant choices works for me..... ;)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Ewan McNay Moderator


Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 2780 Location: Albany, NY, US
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Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2003 5:59 am Post subject: Choose my NICT army and list for me |
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Well, it can't hurt.
;-)
As I mentioned in a previous post, I now have a choice of (25mm) armies
for the NICT. And I can't decide. So you good folks are hereby
invited to make my choice for me, if you like, and the process might be
interesting to a few.
Situation: one-list tournament, 1600 points, I assume 8' x 4' tables
(right, Scott?). Expect to need three decent wins (4 or 5 point) to
get to final round, and likely that at least one other person will have
3 5-point wins at that point, so capacity to win games big is
necessary. Expect to face several knight armies (maybe KoSJ, HYW -
last year's winner - , Medieval Spanish, Teuts); elephants (maybe
Khmer, perhaps an Indian variant?), some regular LMI types (Inca,
Aztec), but quite possibly other stuff (pikes, barbarian foot) also.
It's possible that someone will bring a cav army or two, but I'm
ignoring that because I would expect to do well against those with any
of the likely choices.
Plausible options (some more so than others):
Seleucid. I'd probably run it with 10 elephants, who have the great
advantage of being pike-armed but only C class; supported by pikes, a
couple of units of peltasts, some Irreg D MI B if desired, a couple of
4-man units of LC JLS, Sh and LI S, Sh and scythed chariots if you
like. It''s possible to take lots of cheap regular HC L, but I won'' -
not my style, especially at only one list. I consider this the best
combined arms force going; disadvantages are lowish morale and limited
ability to fight in terrain. As with all of this, other ways to run
the list are invited but my biases are showing.
Khmer. High morale elephants, with generals elephant mounted which I
like, but not pike armed (hence probably lose even-up against foot
pike, seleucid elephants, maybe foot JLS sometimes). Supported by Reg
LHI JLS, Sh, which can be up to 1/2 double armed with B (a good idea in
my book) and of either B, C, or mixed C/D morale (or all D, but that is
not an option because it would then require a waver if ever prompted to
charge). Also decent Reg LI JLS, Sh (or B, Sh, but I'd likely take the
JLS option). No real cav to talk of. My preliminary list has 5
elephant-general units (3x3, 2x2, total of 13 Els, max of 14 allowed on
list despite there being something like 30 available!), 6 or 7 16-man
LHI units and a bunch of LI. Good against LMI armies, probably, but
the LHI get expensive and the back-rank armour is essentially an
expensive uselessness; fine against knights; may have problems against
pikes or seleucids. Or Romans, possibly, but Romans are so vulnerable
to knights that I'd be surprised to see many. Now there will be ten -
what do I know? There is an option for a Burmese Ally, which is
especially good in the Hutchby/Clark version where he is El-mounted and
brings along up to 3 other killer elephants while only requiring a 61-
point LMI B unit to also be bought. But the Burmese Els get real
expensive, real fast, and probably (I am thinking) don't do *that* much
that other Els don't. They *are* effective, but may be too easily
avoided - and reduce the number of units and frontage of army maybe
below comfort levels. Maybe not -they're certainly gods if they can
actually see use.
Proto-Vietnamese. Also good elephants and elephant generals.
Supported by IrrA LMI JLS, Sh, and a Cham Ally brings a couple of units
of Reg LHI. Suffers from lack of regular lights, lack of cav of any
kind that's useful, and some compulsory `target' units - shieldless Irr
LMI B, for example; shieldless LI CB Irr C for another. They aren't
totally useless, though, as they're not hugely expensive and can bulk
up commands. Probably get something like 5x3 El units, 2-3 LHI and 3-4
IrrA LMI, plus filler. This list is a Hutchby and Clark one, but it's
not (at least to me) too overpowered. An alternative would be to
ignore the Cham and run it as pure El / IrrA LMI, but that's too
uncontrolled to be the first choice for me.
Both the elephant armies suffer from lack of scouting and are likely to
be outscouted by many opponents; this may or may not matter. They
scare knights, the Khmer more so that the Viets because the knights
would just love to find Irr LMI to play with. The interaction with
Aztecs etc gets interesting - the LHI are happy, but the elephants are
not, and it all would be tricky.
Even more lacking in scouting are Aztec (or Tlaxcallan). I haven't
actually used either of these new lists (but then I haven't used Khmer
or Viet either), but the Spanish seem to be an extremely expensive
option for an army that should be relying on massed troops to a large
extent, and so I am not (at least, yet) a fan of the Tlaxcallan option.
Unfortunately this limits the number of B available - with Tlaxcallan,
one can make units front rank 1HCW, D, Sh while the back rank has B
rather than D. This is not an option for Aztecs, but what they do get
is a ton of LMI 1HCW, JLS or D, Sh, and a few units of 1HCW, S, Sh
which are better against knights (and hence would make it into my list
for this one-list tourney; also a couple of units (generals) with 2HCT
rather than 1HCW, and a couple of units of IrrA LMI 2HCW, JLS, along
with plentiful reg LI and optional peasant reg LMI which I would
probably run a 24-man unit of, Reg D 1/2 S, Sh 1/2 B. no real punch
here, and absolutely no mounted, but quite a lot of missile fire and
reasonable combat against anything not too heavily armoured. Will
suffer against knights in open terrain, but likely to beat up on
anyone's support troops very happily and effectively.
A final factor is that I am genuinely rusty, and can play Seleucids
without thought better than I can play Aztecs, then Khmer, then Viets.
Anyway, enough of this blather. Your thoughts are welcome, but I have
to make a decision on army and list by this weekend to get them to
Scott by deadline!
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joncleaves Moderator


Joined: 29 Mar 2006 Posts: 16447
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Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2003 11:53 am Post subject: Re: Choose my NICT army and list for me |
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In a message dated 7/9/2003 07:48:15 Central Daylight Time,
Scott.Holder@... writes:
> >I *know* this army. Tis great against knight lists, great against some of
> the combined-armed Chinese lists and just fine against the hellenistic pike
> trash. LMI armies?
Scott, when you have a minute, regale me with tales of how well your Khmer
have done against 'combined arms Chinese lists'...lol
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Centurion

Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 1373
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Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2003 2:29 pm Post subject: Re: Choose my NICT army and list for me |
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Personally I'd choose the Selucids. The one reason is because the list is so
varied that your opponant will not know what he is facing until you put it on
the table. In each of the other lists it is obvious what will be presented. El
are fantastic trooops but against a heavy B/sh and K army the elephants just
won't keep the looser order stuff from dieing. I've faced everyone of these
armies except the Spanish ally option of Aztec. Tyically the Aztecs are very
light on scouting and LI, so they will be screened heavily; I alway hate buring
my dudes up on LI, but this is probably a reality in the high power world of
championship play. And as you say, the more El the less everything else
including frontage :)
Selucid can be anything, and with a few peltast, Pk and, Pk armed EL you have
your mobile avoidance factor with shock troops hovering about the edges.
In any of these cases, as you've indicated, any of the interprenetrating Romans
will be an issue. LIR with D armed high moral auxillia will certainly take more
punishment than the irrg LMI you've be using, yet even Romans can be accounted
for with Selucids. BTW, I'd also include some SHC in my list just for the shear
fear factor they present.
Last, I'd say you know all of this aready and more, for I'm but a 13 year novice
:)
Wanax
ewanmcnay <ewan.mcnay@...> wrote:
Well, it can't hurt.
;-)
As I mentioned in a previous post, I now have a choice of (25mm) armies
for the NICT. And I can't decide. So you good folks are hereby
invited to make my choice for me, if you like, and the process might be
interesting to a few.
Situation: one-list tournament, 1600 points, I assume 8' x 4' tables
(right, Scott?). Expect to need three decent wins (4 or 5 point) to
get to final round, and likely that at least one other person will have
3 5-point wins at that point, so capacity to win games big is
necessary. Expect to face several knight armies (maybe KoSJ, HYW -
last year's winner - , Medieval Spanish, Teuts); elephants (maybe
Khmer, perhaps an Indian variant?), some regular LMI types (Inca,
Aztec), but quite possibly other stuff (pikes, barbarian foot) also.
It's possible that someone will bring a cav army or two, but I'm
ignoring that because I would expect to do well against those with any
of the likely choices.
Plausible options (some more so than others):
Seleucid. I'd probably run it with 10 elephants, who have the great
advantage of being pike-armed but only C class; supported by pikes, a
couple of units of peltasts, some Irreg D MI B if desired, a couple of
4-man units of LC JLS, Sh and LI S, Sh and scythed chariots if you
like. It''s possible to take lots of cheap regular HC L, but I won'' -
not my style, especially at only one list. I consider this the best
combined arms force going; disadvantages are lowish morale and limited
ability to fight in terrain. As with all of this, other ways to run
the list are invited but my biases are showing.
Khmer. High morale elephants, with generals elephant mounted which I
like, but not pike armed (hence probably lose even-up against foot
pike, seleucid elephants, maybe foot JLS sometimes). Supported by Reg
LHI JLS, Sh, which can be up to 1/2 double armed with B (a good idea in
my book) and of either B, C, or mixed C/D morale (or all D, but that is
not an option because it would then require a waver if ever prompted to
charge). Also decent Reg LI JLS, Sh (or B, Sh, but I'd likely take the
JLS option). No real cav to talk of. My preliminary list has 5
elephant-general units (3x3, 2x2, total of 13 Els, max of 14 allowed on
list despite there being something like 30 available!), 6 or 7 16-man
LHI units and a bunch of LI. Good against LMI armies, probably, but
the LHI get expensive and the back-rank armour is essentially an
expensive uselessness; fine against knights; may have problems against
pikes or seleucids. Or Romans, possibly, but Romans are so vulnerable
to knights that I'd be surprised to see many. Now there will be ten -
what do I know? There is an option for a Burmese Ally, which is
especially good in the Hutchby/Clark version where he is El-mounted and
brings along up to 3 other killer elephants while only requiring a 61-
point LMI B unit to also be bought. But the Burmese Els get real
expensive, real fast, and probably (I am thinking) don't do *that* much
that other Els don't. They *are* effective, but may be too easily
avoided - and reduce the number of units and frontage of army maybe
below comfort levels. Maybe not -they're certainly gods if they can
actually see use.
Proto-Vietnamese. Also good elephants and elephant generals.
Supported by IrrA LMI JLS, Sh, and a Cham Ally brings a couple of units
of Reg LHI. Suffers from lack of regular lights, lack of cav of any
kind that's useful, and some compulsory `target' units - shieldless Irr
LMI B, for example; shieldless LI CB Irr C for another. They aren't
totally useless, though, as they're not hugely expensive and can bulk
up commands. Probably get something like 5x3 El units, 2-3 LHI and 3-4
IrrA LMI, plus filler. This list is a Hutchby and Clark one, but it's
not (at least to me) too overpowered. An alternative would be to
ignore the Cham and run it as pure El / IrrA LMI, but that's too
uncontrolled to be the first choice for me.
Both the elephant armies suffer from lack of scouting and are likely to
be outscouted by many opponents; this may or may not matter. They
scare knights, the Khmer more so that the Viets because the knights
would just love to find Irr LMI to play with. The interaction with
Aztecs etc gets interesting - the LHI are happy, but the elephants are
not, and it all would be tricky.
Even more lacking in scouting are Aztec (or Tlaxcallan). I haven't
actually used either of these new lists (but then I haven't used Khmer
or Viet either), but the Spanish seem to be an extremely expensive
option for an army that should be relying on massed troops to a large
extent, and so I am not (at least, yet) a fan of the Tlaxcallan option.
Unfortunately this limits the number of B available - with Tlaxcallan,
one can make units front rank 1HCW, D, Sh while the back rank has B
rather than D. This is not an option for Aztecs, but what they do get
is a ton of LMI 1HCW, JLS or D, Sh, and a few units of 1HCW, S, Sh
which are better against knights (and hence would make it into my list
for this one-list tourney; also a couple of units (generals) with 2HCT
rather than 1HCW, and a couple of units of IrrA LMI 2HCW, JLS, along
with plentiful reg LI and optional peasant reg LMI which I would
probably run a 24-man unit of, Reg D 1/2 S, Sh 1/2 B. no real punch
here, and absolutely no mounted, but quite a lot of missile fire and
reasonable combat against anything not too heavily armoured. Will
suffer against knights in open terrain, but likely to beat up on
anyone's support troops very happily and effectively.
A final factor is that I am genuinely rusty, and can play Seleucids
without thought better than I can play Aztecs, then Khmer, then Viets.
Anyway, enough of this blather. Your thoughts are welcome, but I have
to make a decision on army and list by this weekend to get them to
Scott by deadline!
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scott holder Moderator


Joined: 30 Mar 2006 Posts: 6073 Location: Bonnots Mill, MO
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Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2003 3:46 pm Post subject: RE: Choose my NICT army and list for me |
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I assume 8' x 4' tables
(right, Scott?).
>8x5 tables.
Expect to need three decent wins (4 or 5 point) to
get to final round, and likely that at least one other person will have
3 5-point wins at that point, so capacity to win games big is
necessary.
>Given the number of players this year comitted to participating, I can almost
assure 4-6 players in a 4th round on Sunday so it could be more wide open than
in previous years.
Expect to face several knight armies (maybe KoSJ, HYW -
last year's winner
>Um, you *do* need to catch up. Last year's winner was Patrician Romans run by
Chris D. God knows what the list looked like:) Second place was Rob T's
Seleucids which I'm sure would be a list we'd all recognize. Third place, Todd
K running Aztecs but those would have been somebody elses icky, poorly
researched Aztecs:) :)
Seleucid. I'd probably run it with 10 elephants, who have the great
advantage of being pike-armed but only C class; supported by pikes, a
couple of units of peltasts, some Irreg D MI B if desired, a couple of
4-man units of LC JLS, Sh and LI S, Sh and scythed chariots if you
like. It''s possible to take lots of cheap regular HC L, but I won'' -
not my style, especially at only one list. I consider this the best
combined arms force going; disadvantages are lowish morale and limited
ability to fight in terrain. As with all of this, other ways to run
the list are invited but my biases are showing.
>Play to your biases then. But.....just about everybody, regardless of what
army they bring, will see you with Seleucids and simply hose up the board as
much as they can with terrain since it limits your options and minimizes actual
numbers of matchups. Will this translate into a 5-x win for your opponent? Who
knows.
Khmer. Good against LMI armies, probably, but
the LHI get expensive and the back-rank armour is essentially an
expensive uselessness; fine against knights; may have problems against
pikes or seleucids. Or Romans, possibly, but Romans are so vulnerable
to knights that I'd be surprised to see many. Now there will be ten -
what do I know?
>I *know* this army. Tis great against knight lists, great against some of the
combined-armed Chinese lists and just fine against the hellenistic pike trash.
LMI armies? Unless Chris D brings E Hebrews, the NICT isn't the usual place you
see LMI armies unless you're talking Aztecs and their ilk. It *can* be very
good against them if you're willing to take a waver test or two with the
elephants (from shooting) but that's mitigated now to a certain extent by the
fact the good Aztec foot "only" shoots at 80p. Against LIR, it shouldn't be any
different than going up against Aztecs, but tons depends on movement sequence
and whether or not you can avoid getting popped by D-armed evil doooers
(legionairies and auxilia) in prep. If you do, it's halt or waver. Tack on the
fact you have to somehow screen/avoid the expected panzer division of light bolt
shooters on carts and you discover you have a much harder time than expected.
Against other elephant armies, it's problematic. Usually, your elephants are as
good as theirs but your foot can either be better/worse depending on the list.
And believe it or not, mounted cav armies can play havoc on you unless you get
all your terrain (being tropical helps). I lost 3-2 to Derek in the NICT, me
running Khmer, he running L Otts but I woulda been surrounded if I hadn't have
gotten all my terrain.
There is an option for a Burmese Ally, which is
especially good in the Hutchby/Clark version where he is El-mounted and
brings along up to 3 other killer elephants while only requiring a 61-
point LMI B unit to also be bought. But the Burmese Els get real
expensive, real fast, and probably (I am thinking) don't do *that* much
that other Els don't.
>I agree fwiw. I've run the Burmese allies before, they're always getting
hammered. I'd rather have another "pod" of Khmer EL/LHI/LMI than these.
Proto-Vietnamese. Also good elephants and elephant generals.
Supported by IrrA LMI JLS, Sh, and a Cham Ally brings a couple of units
of Reg LHI. Suffers from lack of regular lights, lack of cav of any
kind that's useful, and some compulsory `target' units - shieldless Irr
LMI B, for example; shieldless LI CB Irr C for another. They aren't
totally useless, though, as they're not hugely expensive and can bulk
up commands. Probably get something like 5x3 El units, 2-3 LHI and 3-4
IrrA LMI, plus filler.
>This doesn't strike me as much of a "you" list. Oops, I take that back
remembering you/Chris running Spanish. The "totally useless" troops are good at
holding woods and such, screening on flank while you win/lose elsewhere.
The interaction with
Aztecs etc gets interesting - the LHI are happy, but the elephants are
not, and it all would be tricky.
>I'm suprised at how easy these types of armies deal with Aztecs and their ilk
but again, that assumes you are a Damour/Holder type of player and don't mind
the occasional throw away waver test by Irr Bs in order to slam into some trashy
New World heathen.
Even more lacking in scouting are Aztec (or Tlaxcallan). No real punch
here, and absolutely no mounted, but quite a lot of missile fire and
reasonable combat against anything not too heavily armoured. Will
suffer against knights in open terrain, but likely to beat up on
anyone's support troops very happily and effectively.
>Yes but that assumes your opponent will willingly let you do that:) The
only punch here are the Irr A guys with 2HCT so in some ways, this isn't unlike
the Spanish. I mean you don't have any scouting there either. Here, you can
play in all kinds of terrain. But as you said, knights really can cause havoc
A final factor is that I am genuinely rusty, and can play Seleucids
without thought better than I can play Aztecs, then Khmer, then Viets.
>Scott McDonald has always said you should run armies in the NICT that require
no thought. That way, if you do make a mistake, you're soooooo familiar with
the army that you can recover fairly quickly. Of course Scott McD will have
already played 6 games and be half brain dead anyway so entering the NICT with
an army that requires *thought* is like conceeding at least one game to the
field from the gitgo:) :)
scott
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