Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[Frank Gilson]

Wes likes big irregular foot armies...and mentions below the problem of
defending his flanks.

Wes, I take it from your mail that you've been playing Russ in 15mm. In that
scale your flanks are in more danger than 25s...given that there is
effectively more table width in a 15mm game with respect to the elements,
than in 25mm.

So, changing scales will help you.

Also, you can anchor a flank with terrain...and should investigate doing so.
Woods work naturally well with respect to your chances of getting them and
using loose order infantry to keep enemy out of them.

Steep hills are also useful in this manner, and don't prohibit your shooting
from them as woods may.

What you want to do is try to cut down the frontage of the table to a point
where you have good coverage, and anchor flanks with table side plus
woods/steep-hills.

Also, from an army organization standpoint...try to make it such that if you
lose units, you are losing your poor morale troops...and only waver testing
with your high morale troops, rather than the other way around. You'll win
many more battles if you manage that!

Frank Gilson
********************************
Message: 24
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 03:39:44 -0000
From: "lsu90" <lsu90@...>
Subject: Brittle Flanks

I'm a sucker for big irreg foot armies. I should know better, but I
can't help myself. I played Arabs and Byzantine armies in the late
80s and couldn't get into spending and hour manuevering on a flank
before the first kill happened. I love big clashes in the center of
the board (its a weakness).

I've tried terrain, LI, light cav, and Irreg B LHI,Jls,B,Sh and still
don't have solid enough flanks with my Russ. Most good players slows
me in the center, masses a combined arms attack on a flank and I'm in
trouble. I've tried refusing one end of the line, but gaps always
appear if the army doesn't push across the board at the same speed to
contact. I'm about to invest in a Bulgar ally contingent with a mix
of HC/LC and I'm contemplating using Pechneg allies with wagon lager,
but I've never used (or seen used) wagons. I love the army enough
I'm painting it in 25mm (have had it in 15s for years). Any sage
advise other than selling it on ebay and investing in an army with at
least a couple of regular cav. Any Viking or Saxon players out there?

Wes

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[joncleaves]

In a message dated 3/10/2004 1:28:15 PM Eastern Standard Time,
franktrevorgilson@... writes:

> Wes, I take it from your mail that you've been playing Russ in 15mm. In that
> scale your flanks are in more danger than 25s...given that there is
> effectively more table width in a 15mm game with respect to
> the elements,
> than in 25mm.
>
> So, changing scales will help you.>>

One word of caution - this is a problematic criteria on which to make a long
term army buying decision. 25mm may not always be played on 8 foot tables...

J

Wes owns the army in 25mm. We played on a 3x6 table with 1100
points, and he still lost on the flank. My thoughts for Wes, knowing
more about his army, was that he needs more than 1 mounted unit.
With only a single small LC unit, you can't even hold up 4 enemy
mounted HC and LC massing to your front. I think Mark was more on
target with the Bulgar ally.

wanax

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, JonCleaves@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 3/10/2004 1:28:15 PM Eastern Standard Time,
franktrevorgilson@h... writes:
>
> > Wes, I take it from your mail that you've been playing Russ in
15mm. In that
> > scale your flanks are in more danger than 25s...given that there
is
> > effectively more table width in a 15mm game with respect to
> > the elements,
> > than in 25mm.
> >
> > So, changing scales will help you.>>
>
> One word of caution - this is a problematic criteria on which to
make a long term army buying decision. 25mm may not always be played
on 8 foot tables...
>
> J

I've played this army for years in 15mm and now Derek convinced me to
play it in 25mm. In the old days a Varangian ally was not required
and the Viking contingent was smaller. In my opinion you have to
have loose order Vikings and I make them all B class. I prefer to
use them between spear blocks to preempt charges, or to hit an enemy
stuck on the spears. They are also my only terrain troops. I have at
least 1 unit with Jls,B on one flank. Its normally the only unit
that can skirmish away from contact and causes cav some concern. The
big problem is that this contingent runs around 550pts min. My main
command is 3 6E blocks of spear that press forward. Russ spear are
difficult to route on contact unless your Moogs.

At 1200pts that is it. I was able to squeeze in a LI,B and a LC,B to
provide some screen at Derekcon. Against Boyd I split the Varangians
between the flanks and pushed toward contact. Boyd massed LC and HC
on the 1 LC. I was able to shoot off his light and evaded with my
LC. I rolled down he rolled up and the rest is history. I tried to
refuse the damaged flank and keep pushing, but irreg armies don't
refuse flanks well. Gaps always seem to occur and small mobile
(especially reg cav) find their way in somewhere.

According to list and the ally section front of the Dark Age Warrior
list if a Varangian CinC is used an Ally Varangian General must be
used and all Varangian must be in the Allies command. This and the
20E mins really drives the points up. I've thoutht about a Bulgar
ally with lancers to add some punch, but I think this is more of a
push army. I've always used the Russ to push the center which forces
the enemy to commit lots of troops to stop the horde. This normally
opens a crack for a Huscarl or Beserker to route someone and then the
waivers start in the middle of his army. I lose units too, but I've
been lucky enough to come out ahead on most slugfests.

I'm going to play test the Pechneg ally with wagon lager to hold a
flank next. Anyone have any experience with wagons?

As I have made a few generally unsuccessful attempts at running the
Russ, I have enjoyed reading your comments. I did want to clarify
something based on a question I had asked Scott last year. Here is the
relevant part (again, the answers are Scott's - see July 15, 2003,
message 8701):

I have a question about the Russ list in the Dark Age Warrior book. It
says
that the Russ C-in-C may be bought as either HI or LHI. If bought as
LHI,
any bodyguard elements that are bought as part of the C-in-C must be
bought
as Varangian warriors. So, here are a few questions assuming I want to
buy a
LHI C-in-C:

1. Must I buy a Varangian contingent, i.e., do I need to buy the
minimum #
of Varangians?
>Yes. Page 62 of DAW states that if the CinC is LHI, then the
Varangian allies
must be used and if the CinC is in more than a single element body,
then he must
be in a body of Varangian Warrios.

2. Do I need to buy the Varangian Ally-General?
>Yes.

3. Since the C-in-C is now Varangian-like, can he command Varangian
troops
too (other than his own body, of course)?
>Yes.

It would seem that this final point conflicts with your statement about
keeping all the Varangians together. In fact, this makes things better
for the army list.


> According to list and the ally section front of the Dark Age Warrior
> list if a Varangian CinC is used an Ally Varangian General must be
> used and all Varangian must be in the Allies command.


Good Luck!

-- Charles

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks,

I remember that thread and thought I had saved it. That does help a
little, but the mins are still high. How did you run them?
Wes

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, Charles Randow <clr198@p...>
wrote:
> As I have made a few generally unsuccessful attempts at running the
> Russ, I have enjoyed reading your comments. I did want to clarify
> something based on a question I had asked Scott last year. Here is
the
> relevant part (again, the answers are Scott's - see July 15, 2003,
> message 8701):
>
> I have a question about the Russ list in the Dark Age Warrior book.
It
> says
> that the Russ C-in-C may be bought as either HI or LHI. If bought
as
> LHI,
> any bodyguard elements that are bought as part of the C-in-C must
be
> bought
> as Varangian warriors. So, here are a few questions assuming I
want to
> buy a
> LHI C-in-C:
>
> 1. Must I buy a Varangian contingent, i.e., do I need to buy the
> minimum #
> of Varangians?
> >Yes. Page 62 of DAW states that if the CinC is LHI, then the
> Varangian allies
> must be used and if the CinC is in more than a single element
body,
> then he must
> be in a body of Varangian Warrios.
>
> 2. Do I need to buy the Varangian Ally-General?
> >Yes.
>
> 3. Since the C-in-C is now Varangian-like, can he command
Varangian
> troops
> too (other than his own body, of course)?
> >Yes.
>
> It would seem that this final point conflicts with your statement
about
> keeping all the Varangians together. In fact, this makes things
better
> for the army list.
>
>
> > According to list and the ally section front of the Dark Age
Warrior
> > list if a Varangian CinC is used an Ally Varangian General must
be
> > used and all Varangian must be in the Allies command.
>
>
> Good Luck!
>
> -- Charles
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I have only run using two different approaches (maybe 2 games each?). I
ran them once almost as a Bulgar army with Russ foot, instead of the
Slavic foot more typical of these cavalry armies (about the only thing
I can run with any competence is a barbarian cav army, so at least I
was familiar with this approach). I also ran them with the Varangians,
but I did not know at the time that I could have a Varangina C-in-C
also command Varangians, so I had problems incorporating the smaller
Varangian elements with the larger Russ blocks. In this version, I
think I just got as many lights as I could without buying another
Ally-General. I also think I ran both of these at 1600 points, under
the theory that having to waste points on the Ally part of the
Ally-General, among other things, would make this list too hard to
fight with at 1200 points. I have always run the Russ only as MI.

One thing I have toyed with has been running the Russ in 8 element
blocks, 4 LTS, JLS and 4 B. That way, against certain troops, I could
always expand out 4 wide and project some decent bow fire. In other
situations, you just drop back to 2 wide. This adds 16 points to the
unit and makes a 20 figure block (for casualty purposes) now be a 24
figure block. I don't know if that is worth it though.

My Russ have not performed well so far. One particularly bad example
was in a tournament against some successor pike army. My opponent had
about as may elements of pike as I had Russ foot (I was running version
2, above) and he expanded out to be 2 ranks deep and brought them up to
go head to head. He also brought up some elephants to cause unease. I
managed to get my C-in-C with PA standard in perfect position to make
me eager where necessary, which he didn't notice, so when we announced
charges and I informed him that all of his were cancelled, he looked a
bit upset. But, that was short-lived, as my Russ rolled between down 2
and down 3 down the line. But had the situation been reversed...

-- Charles

On Mar 11, 2004, at 10:36 PM, lsu90 wrote:

> Thanks,
>
> I remember that thread and thought I had saved it.  That does help a
> little, but the mins are still high.  How did you run them?
> Wes
>
> --- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, Charles Randow <clr198@p...>
> wrote:
> > As I have made a few generally unsuccessful attempts at running the
> > Russ, I have enjoyed reading your comments. I did want to clarify
> > something based on a question I had asked Scott last year. Here is
> the
> > relevant part (again, the answers are Scott's - see July 15, 2003,
> > message 8701):
> >
> > I have a question about the Russ list in the Dark Age Warrior book.
> It
> > says
> >   that the Russ C-in-C may be bought as either HI or LHI. If bought
> as
> > LHI,
> >   any bodyguard elements that are bought as part of the C-in-C must
> be
> > bought
> >   as Varangian warriors. So, here are a few questions assuming I
> want to
> > buy a
> >   LHI C-in-C:
> >
> >   1. Must I buy a Varangian contingent, i.e., do I need to buy the
> > minimum #
> >   of Varangians?
> >   >Yes. Page 62 of DAW states that if the CinC is LHI, then the
> > Varangian allies
> >   must be used and if the CinC is in more than a single element
> body,
> > then he must
> >   be in a body of Varangian Warrios.
> >
> >   2. Do I need to buy the Varangian Ally-General?
> >   >Yes.
> >
> >   3. Since the C-in-C is now Varangian-like, can he command
> Varangian
> > troops
> >   too (other than his own body, of course)?
> >   >Yes.
> >
> > It would seem that this final point conflicts with your statement
> about
> > keeping all the Varangians together. In fact, this makes things
> better
> > for the army list.
> >
> >
> > >  According to list and the ally section front of the Dark Age
> Warrior
> > >  list if a Varangian CinC is used an Ally Varangian General must
> be
> > >  used and all Varangian must be in the Allies command.
> >
> >
> > Good Luck!
> >
> > -- Charles
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
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>
Charles L. Randow
Ph.D. Candidate
Dept. of Engineering Science & Mechanics
The Pennsylvania State University


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]