Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[Chris Damour]

Folks,
I am off on a tangent I know, but I have always been amused by
comments about how "300 Spaniards conquored the Aztecs". Yeah they did,
but they had the help of 15K-45K (depending on whose numbers you
believe) indians who were pissed off at the Aztecs!

--
Chris Damour

[joncleaves]

Yes, small number of tech superior troops and a whole crap load of native
allies. You would have thought the Taliban would have learned the Cortez
lesson.....

Which is only slightly less amazing than us thinking it is a 'new way of
war'....

[Todd Kaeser]

Don't forget that the Aztecs were also plagued by
Small Pox which ravaged their population right at the
time where they were beginning to figure out how to
defeat the Spanish.

Todd K


--- JonCleaves@... wrote:
> Yes, small number of tech superior troops and a
> whole crap load of native allies. You would have
> thought the Taliban would have learned the Cortez
> lesson.....
>
> Which is only slightly less amazing than us thinking
> it is a 'new way of war'....
>


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[scott holder]

To be specific, Cortez was driven out of Tenochtitlan once. He returned with
a few more guns and 24,000 pissed off Tlaxcallans only too eager to help overt
hrow an empire that most likely within 10 years would have totally subjugated
them. Of course they were then subjugated by an alien power who damn near wip
ed out the population thru disease, conducted genocidal campaigns off and on f
or the next 200 years, and succeeded in killing their cultural traditions, lan
quage, etc.

Heh heh, Bill and I had a conversation along these lines at FI. He stated tha
t he wouldn't be playing a 1st Crusade army next year because they were genera
lly bastards who had no qualms conducting pogroms against Jews (although that
would be worse in successive Crusades), massacring civilians indiscriminately
during campaigns among their "highlights". I'd argue the New World Spanish ma
de the Crusaders look like junior high school bullies by comparison. Oops, t
his is sounding like a politically correct rant, it's not meant to be. Just a
stream of conciousness thought on the history behind the armies.

I plan on putting together the Spanish contingent for the Tlaxcallans just bec
ause it's such an interesting twist in the genre.

>>> damourc@... 11/20/02 11:36AM >>>
Folks,
I am off on a tangent I know, but I have always been amused by
comments about how "300 Spaniards conquored the Aztecs". Yeah they did,
but they had the help of 15K-45K (depending on whose numbers you
believe) indians who were pissed off at the Aztecs!

--
Chris Damour



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[scott holder]

This is great, historical discussions on something I'm up to my eyeballs in.

The Aztecs had serious internal leadership issues plaquing them (Moctezuma *mi
ght* be accused of being a New World version of Hamlet). After his death, no
firm leadership at the top thwarted effective Aztec response to what was to th
em an entirely alien threat. This type of action is not unlike how Europeans
first reacted to the Mongols when they popped up on the borders. Tack on the
inadvertant Spanish use of MASSIVE biological warfare agents and well, it hamp
ered Aztec response, which, at least tactically, was adapting quite well to th
e Spanish. But again, there just weren't all that many Spanish. Without nati
ve support, Cortez woulda died earlier. More Spanish woulda followed so the e
nd result probably wouldn't have been much different.

>>> hailkaeser@... 11/20/02 12:33PM >>>
Don't forget that the Aztecs were also plagued by
Small Pox which ravaged their population right at the
time where they were beginning to figure out how to
defeat the Spanish.

Todd K


--- JonCleaves@... wrote:
> Yes, small number of tech superior troops and a
> whole crap load of native allies. You would have
> thought the Taliban would have learned the Cortez
> lesson.....
>
> Which is only slightly less amazing than us thinking
> it is a 'new way of war'....
>


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Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site
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[scott holder]

Take this one step further. Subsequent Spanish campaigns in certain sections
of Mesoamerica went *nowhere* for upwards of 150 years because they'd entire t
ough terrain with a completely hostile native population and NO local native s
upport. They got driven out time and time again.

The 19th Century Imperialist period is chock full of similar examples and can
anybody spell V*I*E*T*N*A*M? (although it's not a perfect analogy because of m
ainly rural vs urban conditions on the ground).

>>> JonCleaves@... 11/20/02 01:09PM >>>
Yes, small number of tech superior troops and a whole crap load of native alli
es. You would have thought the Taliban would have learned the Cortez lesson..
...

Which is only slightly less amazing than us thinking it is a 'new way of war'.
...


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[Greg Regets]

I has always thought they were defeated by having to drink Corona Extra without
any limes. Oh the horra'!!

G
----- Original Message -----
From: Holder, Scott <FHWA>
To: IPM Return requested (Receipt notification requested)
Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 1:14 PM
Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] Conquistador Army List...


Take this one step further. Subsequent Spanish campaigns in certain sections
of Mesoamerica went *nowhere* for upwards of 150 years because they'd entire t
ough terrain with a completely hostile native population and NO local native s
upport. They got driven out time and time again.

The 19th Century Imperialist period is chock full of similar examples and can
anybody spell V*I*E*T*N*A*M? (although it's not a perfect analogy because of m
ainly rural vs urban conditions on the ground).

>>> JonCleaves@... 11/20/02 01:09PM >>>
Yes, small number of tech superior troops and a whole crap load of native alli
es. You would have thought the Taliban would have learned the Cortez lesson..
...

Which is only slightly less amazing than us thinking it is a 'new way of war'.
...


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