Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[Todd Kaeser]

Jon and all,

I just returned from Fall In and it went very well. I'll let Phil post the
results so I won't ruin the surprise of who won - needless to say I did not.

Here's the scenario and my question:

I was playing Early Burgundian vs. Rich Kroupa's Berber army. He had routed a
unit of 2E LI of mine w/ a 2E unit of LC L,Sh. I charged through the LI and
routed the unit of LC. Rich rolled his rout move and rolled a 6. I'm thinking
great - he's going long and a unit of spear in the rear would have to test. He
opts to go short. I say, hey wait how can he opt to roll short. I mean, his
troops just got their butt kicked and are bleeding running and screaming away.
How could any unit commander control their troops who are running away. I can
see him shouting "wait, slow down and get caught by the pursuers so we can all
die and no one will waver test!!!!"

I see how routers could roll down and go short - we've all seen the horror
movies of the girl who invariably falls down while being pursued by the bad guy,
but she didn't choose to fall down in order to be killed did she???

If we can't control the distance of impetuous chargers who roll long how can a
router control their distance as well? Don't they act just like impetuous
troops, even breaking through their friendly bodies if no space permits. Pretty
uncontrollable to me.

Hope the rant wasn't too much, but I was quite frustrated at the time. Maybe
this issue could be addressed.

Todd K


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[joncleaves]

The rule was played correctly.

The actions of small-level unit commanders (centurions, etc.) are simulated in
Warrior by various mechanics such as this one and the roll to counter. The
captain attempts to slow the rush of his men to the rear until a general can
come and recover them and so forth.

Jon

-----Original Message-----
From: Todd Kaeser <hailkaeser@...>
To: warriorrules@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 08:12:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [WarriorRules] controlling your routers


Jon and all,

I just returned from Fall In and it went very well. I'll let Phil post the
results so I won't ruin the surprise of who won - needless to say I did not.

Here's the scenario and my question:

I was playing Early Burgundian vs. Rich Kroupa's Berber army. He had routed a
unit of 2E LI of mine w/ a 2E unit of LC L,Sh. I charged through the LI and
routed the unit of LC. Rich rolled his rout move and rolled a 6. I'm thinking
great - he's going long and a unit of spear in the rear would have to test. He
opts to go short. I say, hey wait how can he opt to roll short. I mean, his
troops just got their butt kicked and are bleeding running and screaming away.
How could any unit commander control their troops who are running away. I can
see him shouting "wait, slow down and get caught by the pursuers so we can all
die and no one will waver test!!!!"

I see how routers could roll down and go short - we've all seen the horror
movies of the girl who invariably falls down while being pursued by the bad guy,
but she didn't choose to fall down in order to be killed did she???

If we can't control the distance of impetuous chargers who roll long how can a
router control their distance as well? Don't they act just like impetuous
troops, even breaking through their friendly bodies if no space permits. Pretty
uncontrollable to me.

Hope the rant wasn't too much, but I was quite frustrated at the time. Maybe
this issue could be addressed.

Todd K


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[Derek Downs]

In a message dated 11/14/2005 11:13:43 AM Eastern Standard Time,
hailkaeser@... writes:
If we can't control the distance of impetuous chargers who roll long how
can a router control their distance as well? Don't they act just like impetuous
troops, even breaking through their friendly bodies if no space permits.
Pretty uncontrollable to me.

Hope the rant wasn't too much, but I was quite frustrated at the time.
Maybe this issue could be addressed.

Todd K
Todd

Routing is not a science. Troops are running wildly everywhere trying to
get away from the pursuers. The ability to control the length of a rout
reflects small groups of routers still putting up resistance instead of just
being
slaughtered.

Derekcus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Todd Kaeser]

We are talking about routers here right??? It's not like it is an organized
falling back procedure. If a commander cannot control their path (seeking a
gap) nor control breaking through a friendly unit how can they control a rout
especially if it allows the pursuing unit to catch and destroy it. Isn't the
routing unit acting on self preservation???

Todd

JonCleaves@... wrote:
The rule was played correctly.

The actions of small-level unit commanders (centurions, etc.) are simulated in
Warrior by various mechanics such as this one and the roll to counter. The
captain attempts to slow the rush of his men to the rear until a general can
come and recover them and so forth.

Jon

-----Original Message-----
From: Todd Kaeser <hailkaeser@...>
To: warriorrules@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 08:12:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [WarriorRules] controlling your routers


Jon and all,

I just returned from Fall In and it went very well. I'll let Phil post the
results so I won't ruin the surprise of who won - needless to say I did not.

Here's the scenario and my question:

I was playing Early Burgundian vs. Rich Kroupa's Berber army. He had routed a
unit of 2E LI of mine w/ a 2E unit of LC L,Sh. I charged through the LI and
routed the unit of LC. Rich rolled his rout move and rolled a 6. I'm thinking
great - he's going long and a unit of spear in the rear would have to test. He
opts to go short. I say, hey wait how can he opt to roll short. I mean, his
troops just got their butt kicked and are bleeding running and screaming away.
How could any unit commander control their troops who are running away. I can
see him shouting "wait, slow down and get caught by the pursuers so we can all
die and no one will waver test!!!!"

I see how routers could roll down and go short - we've all seen the horror
movies of the girl who invariably falls down while being pursued by the bad guy,
but she didn't choose to fall down in order to be killed did she???

If we can't control the distance of impetuous chargers who roll long how can a
router control their distance as well? Don't they act just like impetuous
troops, even breaking through their friendly bodies if no space permits. Pretty
uncontrollable to me.

Hope the rant wasn't too much, but I was quite frustrated at the time. Maybe
this issue could be addressed.

Todd K


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[Derek Downs]

In a message dated 11/14/2005 5:12:24 PM Eastern Standard Time,
greg.regets@... writes:
This sort of falls under the "everyone is playing by the same rules"
catagory, where it has to be fair by default, since it applies to
everyone equally, and nobody gets an advantage from it that the other
player couldn't just as easily get.
I think that Alexandrian Imperial routers should be able to counter at
anytime to redirect their rout path, not take fatigue for routing through
terrain,
and rally straight to disorder once pursuit has ended. These would special list
rules that would be free.

Derekcus :)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[joncleaves]

I'm sorry you don't like the rule, Todd. But I cannot get involved in a
point-counterpoint debate over it. It was more than I like to do to give you
designer's notes as part of my answer for exactly this reason.

Jon

-----Original Message-----
From: Todd Kaeser <hailkaeser@...>
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 09:09:02 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] controlling your routers


We are talking about routers here right??? It's not like it is an organized
falling back procedure. If a commander cannot control their path (seeking a
gap) nor control breaking through a friendly unit how can they control a rout
especially if it allows the pursuing unit to catch and destroy it. Isn't the
routing unit acting on self preservation???

Todd

JonCleaves@... wrote:
The rule was played correctly.

The actions of small-level unit commanders (centurions, etc.) are simulated in
Warrior by various mechanics such as this one and the roll to counter. The
captain attempts to slow the rush of his men to the rear until a general can
come and recover them and so forth.

Jon

-----Original Message-----
From: Todd Kaeser <hailkaeser@...>
To: warriorrules@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 08:12:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [WarriorRules] controlling your routers


Jon and all,

I just returned from Fall In and it went very well. I'll let Phil post the
results so I won't ruin the surprise of who won - needless to say I did not.

Here's the scenario and my question:

I was playing Early Burgundian vs. Rich Kroupa's Berber army. He had routed a

unit of 2E LI of mine w/ a 2E unit of LC L,Sh. I charged through the LI and
routed the unit of LC. Rich rolled his rout move and rolled a 6. I'm thinking
great - he's going long and a unit of spear in the rear would have to test. He
opts to go short. I say, hey wait how can he opt to roll short. I mean, his
troops just got their butt kicked and are bleeding running and screaming away.
How could any unit commander control their troops who are running away. I can
see him shouting "wait, slow down and get caught by the pursuers so we can all
die and no one will waver test!!!!"

I see how routers could roll down and go short - we've all seen the horror
movies of the girl who invariably falls down while being pursued by the bad guy,

but she didn't choose to fall down in order to be killed did she???

If we can't control the distance of impetuous chargers who roll long how can a

router control their distance as well? Don't they act just like impetuous
troops, even breaking through their friendly bodies if no space permits. Pretty

uncontrollable to me.

Hope the rant wasn't too much, but I was quite frustrated at the time. Maybe
this issue could be addressed.

Todd K


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[Todd Kaeser]

I appreciate the response and effort. I realize (probably not entirely) how
much time and effort goes into what you are doing.

While I dislike the rule, my arguement was more from the contradiction of
routers. They can and can't control their behavior at the same time - don't
understand it.

Thanks,

Todd

JonCleaves@... wrote:
I'm sorry you don't like the rule, Todd. But I cannot get involved in a
point-counterpoint debate over it. It was more than I like to do to give you
designer's notes as part of my answer for exactly this reason.

Jon

-----Original Message-----
From: Todd Kaeser <hailkaeser@...>
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 09:09:02 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] controlling your routers


We are talking about routers here right??? It's not like it is an organized
falling back procedure. If a commander cannot control their path (seeking a
gap) nor control breaking through a friendly unit how can they control a rout
especially if it allows the pursuing unit to catch and destroy it. Isn't the
routing unit acting on self preservation???

Todd

JonCleaves@... wrote:
The rule was played correctly.

The actions of small-level unit commanders (centurions, etc.) are simulated in
Warrior by various mechanics such as this one and the roll to counter. The
captain attempts to slow the rush of his men to the rear until a general can
come and recover them and so forth.

Jon

-----Original Message-----
From: Todd Kaeser <hailkaeser@...>
To: warriorrules@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 08:12:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [WarriorRules] controlling your routers


Jon and all,

I just returned from Fall In and it went very well. I'll let Phil post the
results so I won't ruin the surprise of who won - needless to say I did not.

Here's the scenario and my question:

I was playing Early Burgundian vs. Rich Kroupa's Berber army. He had routed a

unit of 2E LI of mine w/ a 2E unit of LC L,Sh. I charged through the LI and
routed the unit of LC. Rich rolled his rout move and rolled a 6. I'm thinking
great - he's going long and a unit of spear in the rear would have to test. He
opts to go short. I say, hey wait how can he opt to roll short. I mean, his
troops just got their butt kicked and are bleeding running and screaming away.
How could any unit commander control their troops who are running away. I can
see him shouting "wait, slow down and get caught by the pursuers so we can all
die and no one will waver test!!!!"

I see how routers could roll down and go short - we've all seen the horror
movies of the girl who invariably falls down while being pursued by the bad guy,

but she didn't choose to fall down in order to be killed did she???

If we can't control the distance of impetuous chargers who roll long how can a

router control their distance as well? Don't they act just like impetuous
troops, even breaking through their friendly bodies if no space permits. Pretty

uncontrollable to me.

Hope the rant wasn't too much, but I was quite frustrated at the time. Maybe
this issue could be addressed.

Todd K


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Todd

This point was clarified by Jon quite a while ago - we play it as
Jon described here in Australia as a result although I think we all
agree with you that a router should not have any choices which give
them an advantage.

Muz



--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, JonCleaves@a... wrote:
>
> I'm sorry you don't like the rule, Todd. But I cannot get
involved in a point-counterpoint debate over it. It was more than I
like to do to give you designer's notes as part of my answer for
exactly this reason.
>
> Jon
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Todd Kaeser <hailkaeser@y...>
> To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 09:09:02 -0800 (PST)
> Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] controlling your routers
>
>
> We are talking about routers here right??? It's not like it is an
organized
> falling back procedure. If a commander cannot control their path
(seeking a
> gap) nor control breaking through a friendly unit how can they
control a rout
> especially if it allows the pursuing unit to catch and destroy
it. Isn't the
> routing unit acting on self preservation???
>
> Todd
>
> JonCleaves@a... wrote:
> The rule was played correctly.
>
> The actions of small-level unit commanders (centurions, etc.) are
simulated in
> Warrior by various mechanics such as this one and the roll to
counter. The
> captain attempts to slow the rush of his men to the rear until a
general can
> come and recover them and so forth.
>
> Jon
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Todd Kaeser <hailkaeser@y...>
> To: warriorrules@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 08:12:43 -0800 (PST)
> Subject: [WarriorRules] controlling your routers
>
>
> Jon and all,
>
> I just returned from Fall In and it went very well. I'll let
Phil post the
> results so I won't ruin the surprise of who won - needless to say
I did not.
>
> Here's the scenario and my question:
>
> I was playing Early Burgundian vs. Rich Kroupa's Berber army.
He had routed a
>
> unit of 2E LI of mine w/ a 2E unit of LC L,Sh. I charged through
the LI and
> routed the unit of LC. Rich rolled his rout move and rolled a 6.
I'm thinking
> great - he's going long and a unit of spear in the rear would have
to test. He
> opts to go short. I say, hey wait how can he opt to roll short.
I mean, his
> troops just got their butt kicked and are bleeding running and
screaming away.
> How could any unit commander control their troops who are running
away. I can
> see him shouting "wait, slow down and get caught by the pursuers
so we can all
> die and no one will waver test!!!!"
>
> I see how routers could roll down and go short - we've all seen
the horror
> movies of the girl who invariably falls down while being pursued
by the bad guy,
>
> but she didn't choose to fall down in order to be killed did she???
>
> If we can't control the distance of impetuous chargers who roll
long how can a
>
> router control their distance as well? Don't they act just like
impetuous
> troops, even breaking through their friendly bodies if no space
permits. Pretty
>
> uncontrollable to me.
>
> Hope the rant wasn't too much, but I was quite frustrated at the
time. Maybe
> this issue could be addressed.
>
> Todd K
>
>
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>
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[Tim Grimmett]

Todd--

Not everyone in a routing unit is running away with his hair on fire.

Jon is (rightly IMHO) that the option to deduct reflects the ability of some
members of the unit to continue to resist/delay in some matter.

My 2 cents.

Tim

Todd Kaeser <hailkaeser@...> wrote:
I appreciate the response and effort. I realize (probably not entirely) how
much time and effort goes into what you are doing.

While I dislike the rule, my arguement was more from the contradiction of
routers. They can and can't control their behavior at the same time - don't
understand it.

Thanks,

Todd

JonCleaves@... wrote:
I'm sorry you don't like the rule, Todd. But I cannot get involved in a
point-counterpoint debate over it. It was more than I like to do to give you
designer's notes as part of my answer for exactly this reason.

Jon

-----Original Message-----
From: Todd Kaeser <hailkaeser@...>
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 09:09:02 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] controlling your routers


We are talking about routers here right??? It's not like it is an organized
falling back procedure. If a commander cannot control their path (seeking a
gap) nor control breaking through a friendly unit how can they control a rout
especially if it allows the pursuing unit to catch and destroy it. Isn't the
routing unit acting on self preservation???

Todd

JonCleaves@... wrote:
The rule was played correctly.

The actions of small-level unit commanders (centurions, etc.) are simulated in
Warrior by various mechanics such as this one and the roll to counter. The
captain attempts to slow the rush of his men to the rear until a general can
come and recover them and so forth.

Jon

-----Original Message-----
From: Todd Kaeser <hailkaeser@...>
To: warriorrules@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 08:12:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [WarriorRules] controlling your routers


Jon and all,

I just returned from Fall In and it went very well. I'll let Phil post the
results so I won't ruin the surprise of who won - needless to say I did not.

Here's the scenario and my question:

I was playing Early Burgundian vs. Rich Kroupa's Berber army. He had routed a

unit of 2E LI of mine w/ a 2E unit of LC L,Sh. I charged through the LI and
routed the unit of LC. Rich rolled his rout move and rolled a 6. I'm thinking
great - he's going long and a unit of spear in the rear would have to test. He
opts to go short. I say, hey wait how can he opt to roll short. I mean, his
troops just got their butt kicked and are bleeding running and screaming away.
How could any unit commander control their troops who are running away. I can
see him shouting "wait, slow down and get caught by the pursuers so we can all
die and no one will waver test!!!!"

I see how routers could roll down and go short - we've all seen the horror
movies of the girl who invariably falls down while being pursued by the bad guy,

but she didn't choose to fall down in order to be killed did she???

If we can't control the distance of impetuous chargers who roll long how can a

router control their distance as well? Don't they act just like impetuous
troops, even breaking through their friendly bodies if no space permits. Pretty

uncontrollable to me.

Hope the rant wasn't too much, but I was quite frustrated at the time. Maybe
this issue could be addressed.

Todd K


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[Greg Regets]

This sort of falls under the "everyone is playing by the same rules"
catagory, where it has to be fair by default, since it applies to
everyone equally, and nobody gets an advantage from it that the other
player couldn't just as easily get.

Just my opinion.



--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, darnd022263@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 11/14/2005 11:13:43 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> hailkaeser@y... writes:
> If we can't control the distance of impetuous chargers who roll
long how
> can a router control their distance as well? Don't they act just
like impetuous
> troops, even breaking through their friendly bodies if no space
permits.
> Pretty uncontrollable to me.
>
> Hope the rant wasn't too much, but I was quite frustrated at the
time.
> Maybe this issue could be addressed.
>
> Todd K
> Todd
>
> Routing is not a science. Troops are running wildly everywhere
trying to
> get away from the pursuers. The ability to control the length of a
rout
> reflects small groups of routers still putting up resistance
instead of just being
> slaughtered.
>
> Derekcus
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

[Chris Bump]

There are situations where formed troops are not allowed to add or
dedcuct distances. I understand and appreciate the arguments con to
Todd's point, but if there are situations where formed troops do not
have the option it seen rather disconnected that unformed troops
would have more control over their actions. Perhaps a minimum
standard could be set wherby D class or lower troops don't have the
leadership available to try and rally the fleerers and so may not opt
to deduct distance would be a possibiltiy.
Chris

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "Greg Regets" <greg.regets@g...>
wrote:
>
> This sort of falls under the "everyone is playing by the same
rules"
> catagory, where it has to be fair by default, since it applies to
> everyone equally, and nobody gets an advantage from it that the
other
> player couldn't just as easily get.
>
> Just my opinion.
>
>
>
> --- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, darnd022263@a... wrote:
> >
> > In a message dated 11/14/2005 11:13:43 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> > hailkaeser@y... writes:
> > If we can't control the distance of impetuous chargers who roll
> long how
> > can a router control their distance as well? Don't they act just
> like impetuous
> > troops, even breaking through their friendly bodies if no space
> permits.
> > Pretty uncontrollable to me.
> >
> > Hope the rant wasn't too much, but I was quite frustrated at
the
> time.
> > Maybe this issue could be addressed.
> >
> > Todd K
> > Todd
> >
> > Routing is not a science. Troops are running wildly
everywhere
> trying to
> > get away from the pursuers. The ability to control the length of
a
> rout
> > reflects small groups of routers still putting up resistance
> instead of just being
> > slaughtered.
> >
> > Derekcus
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>

Ha ha ha.

That rule is silly and unnecessary.
Bodies in an Alexandrian army never rout!

Noel.


> I think that Alexandrian Imperial routers should be able to counter at
> anytime to redirect their rout path, not take fatigue for routing
through terrain,
> and rally straight to disorder once pursuit has ended. These would
special list
> rules that would be free.
>
> Derekcus
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

[Matt Kollmer]

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "Noel White" <agrianian@y...>
wrote:
>
> Ha ha ha.
>
> That rule is silly and unnecessary.
> Bodies in an Alexandrian army never rout!
>
> Noel.
>

"when compitently generaled"!
matt







>
> > I think that Alexandrian Imperial routers should be able to
counter at
> > anytime to redirect their rout path, not take fatigue for routing
> through terrain,
> > and rally straight to disorder once pursuit has ended. These
would
> special list
> > rules that would be free.
> >
> > Derekcus
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>