Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 10/22/2002 19:42:57 Central Daylight Time,
davidsmith@... writes:

> I was also kind of surprised that neither the NASAMW list
> nor the WRG list allowed Gallic LMI infantry.

What, Rhaetians, Bithnyians and Illyrians aren't enough for you?? :)

We are looking into the LMI for the Warrior Marian list, but we are a long
way from the jury being in on that issue.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Dave Smith]

Putting together a 1600 point 25mm Marian Roman army for the grand
tour next year, and a couple of questions came to mind during my
list development. If I wanted to 'buy' some light bolt shooters,
could I make them a detachment of a legionairre unit? It doesn't
specifically mention the ability to do this, but clearly makes it
historical (unless it was common practice to 'brigade' them
together). Also, there is a spiffy description of Roman unit
interaction (list rule) in the FW section. Does that apply _only_
to FW, or is it backward compatible with the old NASAMW/WRG lists?
Also, this is more of a historical query, but does anyone know what
Roman army fielded elephants? I'm looking for an historical OB to
follow. I was also kind of surprised that neither the NASAMW list
nor the WRG list allowed Gallic LMI infantry. I thought there were
many references in Ceasars commentaries where he mentioned his
Gallic allies involved in fighting side by side with the legions.
You can field Gallation infantry, but only as MI, JLS, Sh., Irreg.
C's which doesn't interest me.

BTW, I enjoyed the recent discussion on list development, and very
much enjoyed Jon's Spearpoint article, as well as Ewan's personal
list strategies.

Dave

[scott holder]

Putting together a 1600 point 25mm Marian Roman army for the grand
tour next year, and a couple of questions came to mind during my
list development. If I wanted to 'buy' some light bolt shooters,
could I make them a detachment of a legionairre unit?

>Unless one of the "new" WRG lists has this, no, you cannot.

It doesn't
specifically mention the ability to do this, but clearly makes it
historical (unless it was common practice to 'brigade' them
together).

>You could put them in the same command, making sure you do that after terrain
deployment:):)

Also, there is a spiffy description of Roman unit
interaction (list rule) in the FW section. Does that apply _only_
to FW, or is it backward compatible with the old NASAMW/WRG lists?

>Unofficially, yes. I mean I'd allow you to do it mainly because I'd like to
see it playtested a bit more and would hope other tourney coordinators would d
o the same. This is also a good time bring up another possible twist on the l
ist rule. The more I delve into the period (see plethora of my previous email
s on Roman Legionaires and their changing fighting form over 500 years) the mo
re I feel the list rule for the Marians probably should apply only to the Cami
llan and Polybian lists. Why? Because their maneuver "schtick" was manipular
based whereas Marian and EIR was cohortal (larger sized units). So, it might
eventually turn out (when I get to Imperial Warrior early-ish next year) that
I'll drop this particular set of list rules for the Marians. Never fear, the
re is some type of "swordsman" rule bouncing around some of the review staff r
ight now that actually fits the Marian and EIR lists better than a list rule d
esigned to reflect manipular battle tactics which neither used. Furthermore,
I will attempt to come up with some type of "special" formation for EIR legion
aires to adopt when facing cav (see Arrian's commentaries on this). All this
to give those poor much maligned Reg B HI dudes a break:):)

Also, this is more of a historical query, but does anyone know what
Roman army fielded elephants? I'm looking for an historical OB to
follow. I was also kind of surprised that neither the NASAMW list
nor the WRG list allowed Gallic LMI infantry.

>I honestly don't know off the top of my head. You might check the "new" WRG
lists since the authors tended to be very very liberal in terms of who they al
lowed in certain lists. I will have some type of answer mid-way through next
year. I don't think any did unless they came along with some Seleucid allies
really really really late in the period.

I thought there were
many references in Ceasars commentaries where he mentioned his
Gallic allies involved in fighting side by side with the legions.
You can field Gallation infantry, but only as MI, JLS, Sh., Irreg.
C's which doesn't interest me.

>This would apply only to those eastern Marian lists like Sulla's and some of
the civil war armies, not to those from let's say early in the Marian period w
hen Gallic/Germanic tribes were routinely overwhelming incompentently led cons

 ular armies (I guess this would technically be at the tail end of the Polybian
period at least as far as the army is concerned). Thereafter, dammit, I'm em
barassed to admit I don't remember and this is a period I know better than mos
t. Too damn many armies rattling around in my head these days:):)

BTW, I enjoyed the recent discussion on list development, and very
much enjoyed Jon's Spearpoint article, as well as Ewan's personal
list strategies.

>I think that type of thing is long overdue. I actually like the "I say this,
you counter with that, I counter with this, and so on and so on and so on" be
cause it gives all the other players some insight into how different players a
pproach the game. Inbreeding has always been a bad thing in this game mainly
because you get used to the same playing styles. By sharing such things here,
while yes, it *might* give the "wrong" impression to some that it's "myway or
the highway", it also allows groups that don't get out much to see how things
are done elsewhere. Heh heh, hopefully Twistercon will change all of that.

>Speaking of which, if you guys are are now taking the lead on this want to, I
think it would be ideal if we did whatever open you were planning on Saturday
preceeded by a FW tourney on Friday, sorta of an ice breaker if you will for
those of us blowing in from out of town. I'll play any/either scale although
25mm are always preferred:) In fact, if you want to do something duplic
ate in FW, I'll be more than glad to help with the lead, felt squares (okay, r
ectangles), etc.

scott

[Dave Smith]

JonCleaves@a... wrote:
What, Rhaetians, Bithnyians and Illyrians aren't enough for you?? :)


**Heh,heh,heh....actually my question was motivated because I
already have the Gallic figures. BTW, what the heck does a Rhaetian
look like? Couldn't find it in the Armies and Enemies of Imperial
Rome book (or any other that I have).


We are looking into the LMI for the Warrior Marian list, but we are
a long way from the jury being in on that issue.

**No problem-o, just trying to see if I use these lads with my
Marians, or if I need to continue painting them and make a Gallic
army out of them.

D

[Dave Smith]

"Holder, Scott wrote:

You could put them in the same command, making sure you do that
after terrain deployment:):)

**I know this list is light years away, but it might be worth
considering allowing light bolters to be detachments.

Unofficially, yes. I mean I'd allow you to do it mainly because I'd
like to see it playtested a bit more and would hope other tourney
coordinators would do the same.

**Cool beans!


Thanks for the feedback Scott. I'll be anxiously awaiting
the 'swordsman' list rule for the Marians.

D

Dave,

The Marian Armies used elephants in North Africa. Their Numidian allies used
them. It appears Roman Legions had a few in Spain. I have not been able to
find a reference in Caesar's work on Spain yet. More than likely Pompey's
forces used them to no great effect so they are not mentioned. Ancient
authors usually assume some knowledge of what is going on. There is no
evidence that any Roman Army used large quantities of the small North African
elephant. An educated guess would lead me to believe Pompey was more likely
to use elephants because he spent more time in the East. As for Rhaetia
(also seen it as Raetia), it is located north of the Italien Alps and west of
present day Switzerland to the Danube. Present day Austia, parts of the
Czech Republic and Slovakia are in the Rhaetia. I would agree with Jon that
LMI Gallic infantry is probably correct troop type. Rhaetia terrain would be
beneficial to open order troops. I hope this helps.

Mike

[Dave Smith]

mbyrne23@a... wrote:

<snip a whole bunch of good stuff>


***Thanks Mike. I appreciate your feedback. So, you're saying if I
use Gallic LMI as Rhaetians (sp), I would be close enough?

Dave

Dave,

That's what I would do. I think the Raetians would dress more like Gauls
than Germans. It is colder so there are probably fewer naked guys running
around.

Mike