Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[Mark Stone]

--- On April 30 Wanax Andron said: ---

> Below are two different lists. First is a conventional 1st Crusader
> list at 1200 points. any productive commentary is welcome. I would
> certainly like to hear from those who have a period interest as well
> as the experts. Second is an later crusader list at 1600 points. In
> this list I need some direction since I'm obviously lopsided in my
> approach and can't strike what I would consider a balance.
>
> 1st Crusader
>
> CNC +2E HK/HC L/sh
> 4x2E IrgA/B HK/HC L/sh
> 2x2E RgC LC J/B/sh
> 2x6E IrgC/D HI/MI J/sh B/J
> 1x6E IrgC/D MI LTS/sh CB
> 1x12E IrgA/C/D LMI J/sh J IPW
> 2x6E IrgD LI B/sh B
> 1x6E IrgC LI J/sh

On 1200 points I like this list a lot. There really isn't anything I would
change. You're stuck with some significant minimums to deal with, and what
flexibility remains needs to go towards (a) making the knights hit hard (hence
the HK and Irr A upgrades), (b) having some shock foot that can deal with bad
terrain and elephants (hence the Pilgrims), (c) having enough skirmishers to
make sure that a missile-vulnerable army has a screen to deploy behind (hence
the LI and LC). So I think this is just fine.

By the way, I've said it before and I'll say it again: this is an army with a
huge amount of historical character. The generals are all fascinating
individuals, and it's an army that fought 7 major field battles over the course
of roughly two years. That's more experience than any other medieval army I can
find. All of this is written up in an informative and entertaining read by
Steven Runciman in "The First Crusade".

> Later Crusader
>
> CNC +2E HK L/sh
> 2x2E IrgA/B HK L/sh
> 2x2E IrgB HK L/sh
> 3x4E IrgC LC L/B/sh
> 2x6E IrgC/D HI/MI LTS/sh CB
> 2x6E IrgE LMI B
> 4x6E IrgD LI B
> 2x4E Reg C LHI/LMI CB
> 1x4E Reg C LMI B/sh
> 2x6E IrgB/C LMI B/sh
>
> The later list has much of what makes a
> workable army at 1600 points, but I have no means by which to stop
> elephants, little other than shooting to address SHK, and nothing
> substantial to thwart massed regular shooters.

Ugh. Well, I don't care for this list much, but I can't say that's really Boyd's
fault. This is a very tough list to work with. I'll make a few small comments
about the choices here, but I think it's better to go "back to the drawing
board" and approach the list with a basic idea of how to make it work.

I can't get excited about the Irr E troops. I know they don't cost much, but
they also don't do much. I'm also ambivalent about the Irr LMI bowmen. I tend
to think that shooters should either be 2 to a stand (less vulnerable) or 4 to
a stand (more powerful). 3 to a stand seems to make them both brittle and
whimpy. Finally, I'd take 2 6 stand units of LC rather than 3 4 stand units. 6
stands is just a happier number (start in column, expand out 2 to either side,
more resistant to fire from LI, etc.).

So, thinking about the list overall:

Your first challenge is what to do with the required foot sergeants. That's 48
figures of guys you'd really rather not have to buy. There are a couple of ways
you can go here.

(1) Buy one 48 figure unit to hold a big chunk of terrain, and rely on the sheer
size of the unit to keep it alive. This isn't a bad way to go, though this unit
will still ending getting routed from time to time.

(2) Buy two smaller units that have enough figures of LTS to compose 2 ranks,
with some extra CB figures thrown in for filler. Probably each unit would look
like: front rank 4 stands Irr C HI LTS,Sh; second rank 2 stands Irr C HI
LTS,Sh, 2 stands Irr C MI LTS,Sh; third rank 3 stands Irr D MI CB. That's more
than the minimum, but gives you two fairly sturdy line units.

(3) Put the CB and LTS guys in separate units. In this case I would buy the CB
guys as cheaply as possible and stick them behind a dry ditch guarding a flank.
That's 6 stands Irr D MI CB + ditch for a whopping 59 points. And that 59
points will take your opponent some effort to get rid of. I'd then probably
upgrade all the LTS guys to Reg C, and put them in 3 2 stand units. These would
operate in tandem with the knights, with the knights hopefully crashing into
some kind of foot and recoiling it, giving the LTS guys a chance to charge in
next bound with 8 figures fighting.

Other questions: do you want the Assassins? That's a small unit of Irr A LMI
JLS,Sh guys, as well as 16 figures of regular LMI B,Sh. Both of those are
useful compliments to other things on the list, and may well be part of the
answer to dealing with elephants.

Take plenty of LI and LC on this list; you'll need the screen.

And I think a Military Order subgeneral is well worth taking, since you can then
get some really excellent regular LC (Reg C with L,B,Sh; a very potent threat
to the flanks of enemy units).

Hope that helps. Any way you slice it, this is a tough army to play in an open
tournament. But again, it's a list with huge historical charm. Where else can
you get Richard the Lionhearted, Philip II, and Barbarossa all on one list?


-Mark Stone

[Frank Gilson]

Yup, excellent way to do 1st crusade on 1200 points, good list Boyd.

As for Later Crusader on 1600 points...it's a troubling list, but
here is a version following my tastes:
2E CinC w/PA & Irr B HK L,Sh 170
2E Military Order Sub w/P & Reg A HK L,Sh 130
2 units of 2E Reg A HK L,Sh 188
4 units of 2E Reg C LC L,B,Sh 200
2E Irr A HK L,Sh 97
3 units of 2E Irr B HK L,Sh 273
48 Irr C HI/MI LTS,Sh/CB 193
2 units of 12 Irr C LC L,B,Sh 218
2 units of 6E Irr D LI B 74
8E Irr C LI B 57
1600 points, 18 units, 2 commands, 70 scouting points, 8 knight units

I'd feel reasonably ok running this army. Trade a P standard in for
the six elements of Ditch...behind that there's no way the 48 man
foot sergeant unit is ever dieing...of course, it's never moving
anywhere else either!

Frank

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, Mark Stone <mark@d...> wrote:
> --- On April 30 Wanax Andron said: ---
>
> > Below are two different lists. First is a conventional 1st
Crusader
> > list at 1200 points. any productive commentary is welcome. I
would
> > certainly like to hear from those who have a period interest as
well
> > as the experts. Second is an later crusader list at 1600 points.
In
> > this list I need some direction since I'm obviously lopsided in
my
> > approach and can't strike what I would consider a balance.
> >
> > 1st Crusader
> >
> > CNC +2E HK/HC L/sh
> > 4x2E IrgA/B HK/HC L/sh
> > 2x2E RgC LC J/B/sh
> > 2x6E IrgC/D HI/MI J/sh B/J
> > 1x6E IrgC/D MI LTS/sh CB
> > 1x12E IrgA/C/D LMI J/sh J IPW
> > 2x6E IrgD LI B/sh B
> > 1x6E IrgC LI J/sh
>
> On 1200 points I like this list a lot. There really isn't anything
I would
> change. You're stuck with some significant minimums to deal with,
and what
> flexibility remains needs to go towards (a) making the knights hit
hard (hence
> the HK and Irr A upgrades), (b) having some shock foot that can
deal with bad
> terrain and elephants (hence the Pilgrims), (c) having enough
skirmishers to
> make sure that a missile-vulnerable army has a screen to deploy
behind (hence
> the LI and LC). So I think this is just fine.
>
> By the way, I've said it before and I'll say it again: this is an
army with a
> huge amount of historical character. The generals are all
fascinating
> individuals, and it's an army that fought 7 major field battles
over the course
> of roughly two years. That's more experience than any other
medieval army I can
> find. All of this is written up in an informative and entertaining
read by
> Steven Runciman in "The First Crusade".
>
> > Later Crusader
> >
> > CNC +2E HK L/sh
> > 2x2E IrgA/B HK L/sh
> > 2x2E IrgB HK L/sh
> > 3x4E IrgC LC L/B/sh
> > 2x6E IrgC/D HI/MI LTS/sh CB
> > 2x6E IrgE LMI B
> > 4x6E IrgD LI B
> > 2x4E Reg C LHI/LMI CB
> > 1x4E Reg C LMI B/sh
> > 2x6E IrgB/C LMI B/sh
> >
> > The later list has much of what makes a
> > workable army at 1600 points, but I have no means by which to
stop
> > elephants, little other than shooting to address SHK, and nothing
> > substantial to thwart massed regular shooters.
>
> Ugh. Well, I don't care for this list much, but I can't say that's
really Boyd's
> fault. This is a very tough list to work with. I'll make a few
small comments
> about the choices here, but I think it's better to go "back to the
drawing
> board" and approach the list with a basic idea of how to make it
work.
>
> I can't get excited about the Irr E troops. I know they don't cost
much, but
> they also don't do much. I'm also ambivalent about the Irr LMI
bowmen. I tend
> to think that shooters should either be 2 to a stand (less
vulnerable) or 4 to
> a stand (more powerful). 3 to a stand seems to make them both
brittle and
> whimpy. Finally, I'd take 2 6 stand units of LC rather than 3 4
stand units. 6
> stands is just a happier number (start in column, expand out 2 to
either side,
> more resistant to fire from LI, etc.).
>
> So, thinking about the list overall:
>
> Your first challenge is what to do with the required foot
sergeants. That's 48
> figures of guys you'd really rather not have to buy. There are a
couple of ways
> you can go here.
>
> (1) Buy one 48 figure unit to hold a big chunk of terrain, and
rely on the sheer
> size of the unit to keep it alive. This isn't a bad way to go,
though this unit
> will still ending getting routed from time to time.
>
> (2) Buy two smaller units that have enough figures of LTS to
compose 2 ranks,
> with some extra CB figures thrown in for filler. Probably each
unit would look
> like: front rank 4 stands Irr C HI LTS,Sh; second rank 2 stands
Irr C HI
> LTS,Sh, 2 stands Irr C MI LTS,Sh; third rank 3 stands Irr D MI CB.
That's more
> than the minimum, but gives you two fairly sturdy line units.
>
> (3) Put the CB and LTS guys in separate units. In this case I
would buy the CB
> guys as cheaply as possible and stick them behind a dry ditch
guarding a flank.
> That's 6 stands Irr D MI CB + ditch for a whopping 59 points. And
that 59
> points will take your opponent some effort to get rid of. I'd then
probably
> upgrade all the LTS guys to Reg C, and put them in 3 2 stand
units. These would
> operate in tandem with the knights, with the knights hopefully
crashing into
> some kind of foot and recoiling it, giving the LTS guys a chance
to charge in
> next bound with 8 figures fighting.
>
> Other questions: do you want the Assassins? That's a small unit of
Irr A LMI
> JLS,Sh guys, as well as 16 figures of regular LMI B,Sh. Both of
those are
> useful compliments to other things on the list, and may well be
part of the
> answer to dealing with elephants.
>
> Take plenty of LI and LC on this list; you'll need the screen.
>
> And I think a Military Order subgeneral is well worth taking,
since you can then
> get some really excellent regular LC (Reg C with L,B,Sh; a very
potent threat
> to the flanks of enemy units).
>
> Hope that helps. Any way you slice it, this is a tough army to
play in an open
> tournament. But again, it's a list with huge historical charm.
Where else can
> you get Richard the Lionhearted, Philip II, and Barbarossa all on
one list?
>
>
> -Mark Stone