Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[Mark Stone]

Quoting "WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com" <WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com>:

> Boyd,
> One approach you could use for your Irg "A" Highlanders is to only make
> one or two elements Irg"A's" Making them always eager and happy and thus not
> so silly that they would have to charge out of the brush. Just a thought. It
> seems you are bent on a later Kniggit army and to be honest, I've seen Greg
> Regets play the Knights of Saint John and they can have the cheapest crap to
> the most expensive stuff depending on your tastes. He runs it with lost of
> Sub-generals and it can maneuver like the wind if you want it too. I can see
> numerous types of armies using this list. Perhaps it's worth a look. "Greg if
> your reading this post would you mind piping in?" I know that for centuries
> the Knights of Saint John got by with small yet very effective armies
> historically. Maybe that is just what the doctor ordered!
>

I think the Scots are a dead end (with all due respect to Dave Markowitz, who
has kicked my ass with them in the past). The LTS, even with the list rule, is
still more of a line troop than a shock troop, and the Highlanders, etc., are
just not good enough.

Let me make an oversimplification here and say that what you're really worried
about are how the Highlanders (or any other candidate shock troop) match up
against: SHK, Elephants, Roman legionaries, Macedonian style pike, and
substantial 4 to a stand shooting. Every other threat is just a nuance on those
basic and prolific types (I said it was an oversimplification).

Your Highlanders are quite vulnerable to mass shooting, because not enough can
be LHI. They beat pike at contact, and with the knights to throw in as follow
up, should do pretty well. I won't comment on legionaries, but I'll hazard a
guess that barbarian style foot are going to find Romans much tougher going once
Imperial Warrior comes out. Again, the knights should help mitigate this threat.
Against elephants, the Highlanders just aren't as good as they seem at first
glance.

Do the math, and you'll realize that to really have the upper hand against
elephants you need one of the following:
(1) 2HCW _and_ JLS, with Irr B LHI;
(2) 2HCW _and_ JLS, with Irr A LMI that roll up

It's not easy to build a battle plan around rolling up. The way to do that is to
be able to say "this unit has the durability to stay in combat for 2 or 3
bounds, and in any one of those that it rolls up it will then have an
irreversible advantage." Some armies can be configured that way. I've seen Ewan
run the Spanish with good effect employing this tactic (among others). But
against elephants, the Highlanders don't fit that bill. They are too likely to
become disordered foot when fighting elephants, and once they are disordered a
big up roll may stave off defeat, but it isn't going to get them a rout against
elephants.

I'm much more inclined to adopt the Dave Stier philosophy: commit your shock
troops when you know you have the upper hand, and then pick troops that won't
foil you by rolling down rather than hoping for an up roll. In other words, Irr
B, preferably with a general, are a more reliable and thus better shock troop
than Irr As. Reg A/B shock troops, if such existed (more on that later), would
be even better.

So of the Highland/Viking type barbarian foot, the ideal for fighting elephants
would be Irr B LHI 2HCW,JLS,Sh. If you want those in reasonable quantity, with
decent supporting cavalry, and enough quality skirmishers to keep your shock
troops from getting shot up, then you should be playing.... Nikophoran
Byzantines with all the Varangians. Sadly (for those of us of Scottish
ancestry), all the Scots/Irish/Norse lists are inferior to Nikophoran
Byzantines. I guess that's the difference between having a clan and building an
empire. If you really want to play a Scots/Irish/Norse list, then play Boran
Norse-Irish (Dark Age Warrior #35); it's the best of the bunch.

So: to wander back to something approximating the original topic. If you want a
late Medieval army that works on 1200 points and has plenty of punch, and should
serve well against a wide range of opponents, historical and otherwise, here's
my recommendation. I've been holding back on this one, hoping to surprise
someone with it some day, but honestly I'm two years away from having it
painted, and I'd love to see someone give it a try:

Italian Condotta (Feudal Warrior #31), Later Venetians in Italy:

CinC, 2 stands Reg A/B SHK L,Sh
Knights, 2 stands Reg B SHK L,Sh
Turks, 6 stands Irr C LC JLS,B,Sh
Archers, 6 stands Reg C LI B

Neapolitan Ally, 2 stands Reg B SHK L,Sh
2 units of Almughuvars, Irr B LMI, 1 stand HTW,JLS,Sh, 2 stands HTW,JLS

2 units of Swiss Reg B LI HG
2 units of Swiss infantry, 1 stand LHI P, 3 stands LMI P, 1 stand LHI 2HCT, 1
stand LMI 2HCT, all Reg B, except that one unit has a Swiss ally with Reg A for
the LHI P

That tallies to exactly 1200 points. All your units save 2 are A or B class. All
your units save 3 are regular. You don't hold a lot of frontage, but you have 3
units of LI and 1 unit of LC, which should be enough to hold your flanks,
particularly if you can anchor one flank against some difficult terrain. And
whatever is manning your opponent's main battle line is sure to be vulnerable to
one of these three: pike, SHK, "moogs".

On 1600 points and on 2000 points the list just gets better, but it works quite
nicely on 1200. And this 1200 points gives you the core of _many_ armies: other
Italian Condotta, Burgundians, various Medieval German armies, etc.


-Mark Stone

[Greg Regets]

Mark ...

I think your Neopolitan Ally General on your Condotta list would need
to have a bodyguard of Regular B SHK and the second stand would need
to be Reg C SHK.

Unless something has changed or I am mistaken, I do not see an
upgrade on moral for the Neopolitans.

My other suggestion (this for Boyd) might be that instead of taking
the second unit of Regular SHK in the Venetian command, buy a unit of
Feudal Elmeti (Irr B SHK L Sh) for the Neopolitan command, for
impetuosity advantages both mounted and dismounted.

Thanks ... g






--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, Mark Stone <mark@d...> wrote:
> Quoting "WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com"
<WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com>:
>
> > Boyd,
> > One approach you could use for your Irg "A" Highlanders is
to only make
> > one or two elements Irg"A's" Making them always eager and happy
and thus not
> > so silly that they would have to charge out of the brush. Just a
thought. It
> > seems you are bent on a later Kniggit army and to be honest, I've
seen Greg
> > Regets play the Knights of Saint John and they can have the
cheapest crap to
> > the most expensive stuff depending on your tastes. He runs it
with lost of
> > Sub-generals and it can maneuver like the wind if you want it
too. I can see
> > numerous types of armies using this list. Perhaps it's worth a
look. "Greg if
> > your reading this post would you mind piping in?" I know that for
centuries
> > the Knights of Saint John got by with small yet very effective
armies
> > historically. Maybe that is just what the doctor ordered!
> >
>
> I think the Scots are a dead end (with all due respect to Dave
Markowitz, who
> has kicked my ass with them in the past). The LTS, even with the
list rule, is
> still more of a line troop than a shock troop, and the Highlanders,
etc., are
> just not good enough.
>
> Let me make an oversimplification here and say that what you're
really worried
> about are how the Highlanders (or any other candidate shock troop)
match up
> against: SHK, Elephants, Roman legionaries, Macedonian style pike,
and
> substantial 4 to a stand shooting. Every other threat is just a
nuance on those
> basic and prolific types (I said it was an oversimplification).
>
> Your Highlanders are quite vulnerable to mass shooting, because not
enough can
> be LHI. They beat pike at contact, and with the knights to throw in
as follow
> up, should do pretty well. I won't comment on legionaries, but I'll
hazard a
> guess that barbarian style foot are going to find Romans much
tougher going once
> Imperial Warrior comes out. Again, the knights should help mitigate
this threat.
> Against elephants, the Highlanders just aren't as good as they seem
at first
> glance.
>
> Do the math, and you'll realize that to really have the upper hand
against
> elephants you need one of the following:
> (1) 2HCW _and_ JLS, with Irr B LHI;
> (2) 2HCW _and_ JLS, with Irr A LMI that roll up
>
> It's not easy to build a battle plan around rolling up. The way to
do that is to
> be able to say "this unit has the durability to stay in combat for
2 or 3
> bounds, and in any one of those that it rolls up it will then have
an
> irreversible advantage." Some armies can be configured that way.
I've seen Ewan
> run the Spanish with good effect employing this tactic (among
others). But
> against elephants, the Highlanders don't fit that bill. They are
too likely to
> become disordered foot when fighting elephants, and once they are
disordered a
> big up roll may stave off defeat, but it isn't going to get them a
rout against
> elephants.
>
> I'm much more inclined to adopt the Dave Stier philosophy: commit
your shock
> troops when you know you have the upper hand, and then pick troops
that won't
> foil you by rolling down rather than hoping for an up roll. In
other words, Irr
> B, preferably with a general, are a more reliable and thus better
shock troop
> than Irr As. Reg A/B shock troops, if such existed (more on that
later), would
> be even better.
>
> So of the Highland/Viking type barbarian foot, the ideal for
fighting elephants
> would be Irr B LHI 2HCW,JLS,Sh. If you want those in reasonable
quantity, with
> decent supporting cavalry, and enough quality skirmishers to keep
your shock
> troops from getting shot up, then you should be playing....
Nikophoran
> Byzantines with all the Varangians. Sadly (for those of us of
Scottish
> ancestry), all the Scots/Irish/Norse lists are inferior to
Nikophoran
> Byzantines. I guess that's the difference between having a clan and
building an
> empire. If you really want to play a Scots/Irish/Norse list, then
play Boran
> Norse-Irish (Dark Age Warrior #35); it's the best of the bunch.
>
> So: to wander back to something approximating the original topic.
If you want a
> late Medieval army that works on 1200 points and has plenty of
punch, and should
> serve well against a wide range of opponents, historical and
otherwise, here's
> my recommendation. I've been holding back on this one, hoping to
surprise
> someone with it some day, but honestly I'm two years away from
having it
> painted, and I'd love to see someone give it a try:
>
> Italian Condotta (Feudal Warrior #31), Later Venetians in Italy:
>
> CinC, 2 stands Reg A/B SHK L,Sh
> Knights, 2 stands Reg B SHK L,Sh
> Turks, 6 stands Irr C LC JLS,B,Sh
> Archers, 6 stands Reg C LI B
>
> Neapolitan Ally, 2 stands Reg B SHK L,Sh
> 2 units of Almughuvars, Irr B LMI, 1 stand HTW,JLS,Sh, 2 stands
HTW,JLS
>
> 2 units of Swiss Reg B LI HG
> 2 units of Swiss infantry, 1 stand LHI P, 3 stands LMI P, 1 stand
LHI 2HCT, 1
> stand LMI 2HCT, all Reg B, except that one unit has a Swiss ally
with Reg A for
> the LHI P
>
> That tallies to exactly 1200 points. All your units save 2 are A or
B class. All
> your units save 3 are regular. You don't hold a lot of frontage,
but you have 3
> units of LI and 1 unit of LC, which should be enough to hold your
flanks,
> particularly if you can anchor one flank against some difficult
terrain. And
> whatever is manning your opponent's main battle line is sure to be
vulnerable to
> one of these three: pike, SHK, "moogs".
>
> On 1600 points and on 2000 points the list just gets better, but it
works quite
> nicely on 1200. And this 1200 points gives you the core of _many_
armies: other
> Italian Condotta, Burgundians, various Medieval German armies, etc.
>
>
> -Mark Stone

[Kelly Wilkinson]

Ummm... Mark,

You missed the begining of this thread where Boyd was talking about Making
a Medieval style French army work. I suggested a list where he could use French
troops that had good foot and then noted that with a Scot's Common army you
could still get great French Knights and get even better foot. My goal was to
try to help boyd find some kind of army that had more staying power while at the
same time involved Boyd's initial choice of French since their SHK can be 1/2
Irg "A."
Yes there are numerous better armies out there, but it all comes down to
personal tactics. I suggested to boyd to take the highlanders because they get
bows. In fact some of the few troops that do get them. And to disagree with you
I think they are a great buy as they can be armed JLS, B, Sh. They can be taken
with 0 to 1/2 Irg "A" which in my mind allows the player to either make them
crazy or simply eager all the time with just one or a couple of elements of
"A's." They aren't Inca Reg B LMI LTS, S, Sh, but they certainly will do in a
pinch especially since they can have bows. Will they blow out SHK? No, but
having Irg "A's" in the front rank will keep them around during the fight with
any kind of an up roll. To me, it's the bow that really makes this troop type.
And using these guys to take brush is a great use for them. Let the Brigans who
can be 1/2 LHI all JLS, 1/2 Sh take the woods.
Is this army a barn burner? Perhaps with a good general. I'm not saying it
is the greatest army that our friend Boyd can take, I'm just saying it is a
better option than the French Ordinance or Medieval French in my opinion based
on my assessment of the support troops available.

kelly wilkinson


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[Kelly Wilkinson]

***Mark writes***
Your Highlanders are quite vulnerable to mass shooting, because not enough can
be LHI.

**kelly writes** Mark, you really should look at the list before making
statements of ignorance such as this. The Scot's Common list gets no LHI
Highlanders.

***Mark writes***

They beat pike at contact, and with the knights to throw in as follow
up, should do pretty well. I won't comment on legionaries, but I'll hazard a
guess that barbarian style foot are going to find Romans much tougher going once
Imperial Warrior comes out. Again, the knights should help mitigate this threat.

***Kelly Writes*** My point is that the Highlanders are merely a support troop
type and nothing else. The French SHK are made to take care of these. The
Highlanders would most likely be facing other support troops in rough terrain
rather than legionaires or pikes. Additonally, look at the Yeoman when faced by
legionaires. The Yeomen Lowlanders can be 1/2 HI. Facing Late Roman Legionaires
they do great! Let's take 2 equal sized units in warrior points. . . for 122
points you get 16 Roman Reg B Mi HTW,JLS,D,Sh verses - at 121 points you get 24
Irg C 1/2Hi 1/2Mi LTS,Sh Yeomen Lowlanders. The two face off at 80 paces. During
preparatory shooting the Romans throw darts at 12 figures @ +1 not doing enough
to effect the Scotts at which point the Scot's do the famous Braveheart "MOON"
at the Romans! Next, duing the charge phase the Scot's Charge impetously. We'll
do the Romans first. The Romans will be 12 figures at a +5 for HTW and +1 for
JLS at contact doing 48 fatigue points and 2 cpf
doubled to 4 because the scots are irreg foot. The Yeomen return with 16
figures at a +3 for facing Mi with LTS, +1 for Impetuous close, and +1 for
charging which give a grand total of 16 @+5 doing 64 fatigue points to the
Romans who are now disordered and fighting Heavy infantry to their front.
Advantage goes to the Scots in the ensuing fight as they are simply too big for
the Disordered Romans to damage and will soon be pushing up daisies in Elysium
against a 24 figure unit that is cheaper. All on even die throws.

***Mark Writes***

Against elephants, the Highlanders just aren't as good as they seem at first
glance.

Do the math, and you'll realize that to really have the upper hand against
elephants you need one of the following:
(1) 2HCW _and_ JLS, with Irr B LHI;
(2) 2HCW _and_ JLS, with Irr A LMI that roll up

***Kelly writes*** Wait a minute, the Highlanders that I suggested that Boyd use
are 0-1/2 Irg A LMI JLS,B,Sh. These guys match up great against elephants. First
they shoot at 240 paces, then 120 paces, then in the support shot of the
impetuous charge! I like the chances of javelins in the hands of impetous LMI
with the added bonus of Irg"A's" in the front rank which more often than not
means that the elephants will move to a safer location rather than deal with
people that will pin cushion them then skewer them for lunch!

***Mark writes***

It's not easy to build a battle plan around rolling up. The way to do that is to
be able to say "this unit has the durability to stay in combat for 2 or 3
bounds, and in any one of those that it rolls up it will then have an
irreversible advantage." Some armies can be configured that way. I've seen Ewan
run the Spanish with good effect employing this tactic (among others). But
against elephants, the Highlanders don't fit that bill. They are too likely to
become disordered foot when fighting elephants, and once they are disordered a
big up roll may stave off defeat, but it isn't going to get them a rout against
elephants.

***Kelly Writes*** To the contrary, as I outlined above, this fight won't happen
because of the bow unless your opponent has "B" class elephants and likes to
take waiver tests for having the urine shot out of his elepants and skewered
like yesterday's other white meat!

***Mark writes***

I'm much more inclined to adopt the Dave Stier philosophy: commit your shock
troops when you know you have the upper hand, and then pick troops that won't
foil you by rolling down rather than hoping for an up roll. In other words, Irr
B, preferably with a general, are a more reliable and thus better shock troop
than Irr As. Reg A/B shock troops, if such existed (more on that later), would
be even better.

***Kelly Writes*** You get this with the Scot's Common. Since you don't have to
depend on your 12 elements of Highlanders to do it all, you don't have to take
the approach you outline. The Shock troops are your SHK. Use them like Dave
Stier and you'll be fine unless you lose your first round in the NICT and quit
the tournament in which case you might find yourself banned for an indetermined
amount of time. :(

***Mark wrote***

So of the Highland/Viking type barbarian foot, the ideal for fighting elephants
would be Irr B LHI 2HCW,JLS,Sh. If you want those in reasonable quantity, with
decent supporting cavalry, and enough quality skirmishers to keep your shock
troops from getting shot up, then you should be playing.... Nikophoran
Byzantines with all the Varangians. Sadly (for those of us of Scottish
ancestry), all the Scots/Irish/Norse lists are inferior to Nikophoran
Byzantines. I guess that's the difference between having a clan and building an
empire. If you really want to play a Scots/Irish/Norse list, then play Boran
Norse-Irish (Dark Age Warrior #35); it's the best of the bunch.
***Boyd***************************************************
So: to wander back to something approximating the original topic. If you want a
late Medieval army that works on 1200 points and has plenty of punch, and should
serve well against a wide range of opponents, historical and otherwise, here's
my recommendation. I've been holding back on this one, hoping to surprise
someone with it some day, but honestly I'm two years away from having it
painted, and I'd love to see someone give it a try:

Italian Condotta (Feudal Warrior #31), Later Venetians in Italy:

CinC, 2 stands Reg A/B SHK L,Sh
Knights, 2 stands Reg B SHK L,Sh
Turks, 6 stands Irr C LC JLS,B,Sh
Archers, 6 stands Reg C LI B

Neapolitan Ally, 2 stands Reg B SHK L,Sh
2 units of Almughuvars, Irr B LMI, 1 stand HTW,JLS,Sh, 2 stands HTW,JLS

2 units of Swiss Reg B LI HG
2 units of Swiss infantry, 1 stand LHI P, 3 stands LMI P, 1 stand LHI 2HCT, 1
stand LMI 2HCT, all Reg B, except that one unit has a Swiss ally with Reg A for
the LHI P

That tallies to exactly 1200 points. All your units save 2 are A or B class. All
your units save 3 are regular. You don't hold a lot of frontage, but you have 3
units of LI and 1 unit of LC, which should be enough to hold your flanks,
particularly if you can anchor one flank against some difficult terrain. And
whatever is manning your opponent's main battle line is sure to be vulnerable to
one of these three: pike, SHK, "moogs".

On 1600 points and on 2000 points the list just gets better, but it works quite
nicely on 1200. And this 1200 points gives you the core of _many_ armies: other
Italian Condotta, Burgundians, various Medieval German armies, etc.


-Mark Stone

***Kelly concludes*** The above options you give are all great. But it all
depends on one's individual tactics. Personally, I like trash armies with LTS
foot. I like to flood the table with lots of troops. But that is my style and we
are all different in our approach to tactics which makes Warrior so fun and
sometimes challenging! :)





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