Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[Mark Stone]

Quoting "WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com" <WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com>:

> From: "Martin" <mwolverton@...>
> Subject: First Crusade help...
>
> I'm a former 7th edition player ... Anyway, I have given serious thought to
> converting my DBM "Early Crusader" to a state were it can be played in either
> system....

I played 1st Crusade for some years in 7th, with reasonable success. In Warrior
the list is very comparable, and, in my opinion, very playable. Not an army
you'd win the Nationals with, but an army that can be competitive against a wide
variety of opponents, and can definitely win when the dice gods are smiling.

>
> I have several questions:
>
> -In your opinion is this a competative army in "open" play?

Definitely competitive. Your biggest problems will be against armies with large
quantities of durable foot, like Alexandrian Imperial, Seleucid, or Late Romans.
(or Eric Turner's Yuan).

> -Given that the pilgrims if run as front rank "A" class and the
> knights are both never uneasy is taking a sacred standard worth the
> cost? (not to mention risk if taken) It would only effect the close
> order infantry and the skirmish trash.

Don't bother with the sacred standard. Sacred standards only make sense in
armies that are crucially dependent on C class foot successfully making
impetuous charges. The Brigans on the Feudal French and Medieval French list are
a good example.

>
> -what sort of configuration is best for the close order infantry?
>

Buy the infantry something like this:
1 unit of:
2 stands Irr C HI LTS,Sh
2 stands Irr D MI LTS,Sh
2 stands Irr C MI JLS,Sh
2 stands Irr D MI JLS,Sh
This unit should start out in a 2 wide, 4 deep formation, but may expand out
under the right circumstances.

1 unit of:
2 stands Irr C HI JLS,B
2 stands of Irr D MI JLS,B
2 stands of Irr D MI CB
4 stands of Irr C MI JLS,Sh
There are several different ways to use this unit, none of them great, but all
of them better than spending more points trying to do something with the close
order foot. You can maximize it for shooting, with the HI JLS,B in the front
rank, the CB in the second rank, and the MI JLS,B in the back rank (in that
formation it counts as 3 stands of B and 2 stands of CB for shooting). The
JLS,Sh stands can either go in a back rank (giving you a 2x5 unit), or in the
front two ranks adjacent to the shooters, almost like a separate unit (giving
you ranks of 4,4,2, and 2). Alternatively, you can optimize this unit for
fighting against elephants, in which case you'd do one of two things. Either
you'd put it on 2 elements' frontage, or 4 elements' frontage. If 2, then the
ranks would be: 2 x MI JLS,Sh - 2 x HI JLS,B - the rest. If 4, then the ranks
would be: 4 x MI JLS,Sh - 2 x HI JLS,B + 2 x MI JLS,B - 2 x MI CB. Finally, you
can do an odd configuration that maximizes the number of shooters and the size
of your shooting arc. It would look like this:
Front rank: HI JLS,B - MI JLS,Sh - MI JLS,Sh - HI JLS,B
Second rank: MI CB - MI JLS,Sh - MI JLS,Sh - MI CB
Third rank: MI JLS,B - MI JLS,B

Basically these two units survive by being big and hard to do a CPF to, and near
impossible to do 3 CPF to. They can hold frontage if you pick the part of the
line to slide them into with care, and once in a while they can actually hurt
something. The archer unit is, in fact, something that elephants have to respect
(though not exactly fear).

> -Do you have an other tips on building an effective "First Crusade"
> army? I'm not asking anyone to build an OB for me, just a few
> pointers as it's been a LONG time simce I crunched numbers for 7th.
>

Buy all the light infantry and all the light cavalry (not much) you can get. You
have some very brittle close order foot units that need to be useed
"situationally", and you'll need a good skirmisher screen to keep those units
out of trouble. Also, though your knights can hit hard, they are vulnerable to
shooting. Another reason to have plenty of skirmishers.

The key to this list is the pilgrims. You want to aim them at the point where
you want the battle to be fought, and make your opponent respond to them. Your
knights should follow behind the pilgrims and serve as counter-punch to whatever
your opponent tries to do to deal with them. An exception to this is elephant
armies, where you want to try and use the pilgrims to hit first, and your close
order foot to hit second. This is hard to coordinate because it involves careful
maneuvering with large, unwieldy units, but it is doable.

Have fun. This is a colorful army, a blast to play, and full of historical
charisma. I highly recommend Steven Runciman's "The First Crusade" as a
wonderful, and very readable introduction to this army.


-Mark Stone

> 1 unit of:
> 2 stands Irr C HI JLS,B
> 2 stands of Irr D MI JLS,B
> 2 stands of Irr D MI CB
> 4 stands of Irr C MI JLS,Sh
> There are several different ways to use this unit, none of them
great, but all
> of them better than spending more points trying to do something
with the close
> order foot. You can maximize it for shooting, with the HI JLS,B in
the front
> rank, the CB in the second rank, and the MI JLS,B in the back rank
(in that
> formation it counts as 3 stands of B and 2 stands of CB for
shooting). The
> JLS,Sh stands can either go in a back rank (giving you a 2x5 unit),
or in the
> front two ranks adjacent to the shooters, almost like a separate
unit (giving
> you ranks of 4,4,2, and 2). Alternatively, you can optimize this
unit for
> fighting against elephants, in which case you'd do one of two
things. Either
> you'd put it on 2 elements' frontage, or 4 elements' frontage. If
2, then the
> ranks would be: 2 x MI JLS,Sh - 2 x HI JLS,B - the rest. If 4, then
the ranks
> would be: 4 x MI JLS,Sh - 2 x HI JLS,B + 2 x MI JLS,B - 2 x MI CB.
Finally, you
> can do an odd configuration that maximizes the number of shooters
and the size
> of your shooting arc. It would look like this:
> Front rank: HI JLS,B - MI JLS,Sh - MI JLS,Sh - HI JLS,B
> Second rank: MI CB - MI JLS,Sh - MI JLS,Sh - MI CB
> Third rank: MI JLS,B - MI JLS,B
> -Mark Stone

Mark, Martin,
I ran my big infantry unit as 12E
Front rank HI J/sh
Second rank outside 2 MI J/sh then 4 MI B/J inside. Outside 4
elements usually were as 3rd and 4th row just adding bodies, but
could expand if needed.

This gave me the ability to shoot at full factors. Long range was 8@
and support was 16@. Unless super heavies or EHI, the attacking unit
would take some serious damage.

All good!

Wanax

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 3/5/2004 3:46:57 PM Eastern Standard Time,
spocksleftball@... writes:

> This gave me the ability to shoot at full factors. Long range was 8@
> and support was 16@. Unless super heavies or EHI, the
> attacking unit
> would take some serious damage.>>

I know better than to get into these tactical kibitzes, but the issue here is
that a big HI/MI JLS B unit is asking to be charged by two or three units, not
just one, thus splitting its shooting down to irrelevance.
This is the kind of unit I drool over in my opponent's army.

Now, the usual verbal counter to this is - hey these guys are cheap, so if I get
you to charge my big HI/MI unit with 2-3 of yours I am 'winning'.

This is incorrect. In order to mass those 2-3 units, I am screening elsewhere,
or better the other guy tried to 'close down the table' with terrain and helped
me conserve force to gang up on this blob. The large suddenly routing unit in
the middle of the other guy's army is much more valuable than worrying that I
took more points to kill it than it was worth. I'd put 1000 points on 100 if
the death of that 100 opened a hole and caused a bunch of wavers....

I see a lot of people get beat by thinking such a unit 'holds a part of the
table securely.' Me - I see target.

I also see a lot of situations where a guy wins a local tourney against guys who
are intimidated by large units and/or try to go one-for-one with them only to
have those same big units used against him when the quality of opponent
increases.

Watch out for that. :)

J

Who are these guys, and what historical formation is this supposed to simulate?

And is a four rank unit with 4, 4, 2, 2 stands a legal formation for Warrior?


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 3/5/2004 4:26:57 PM Eastern Standard Time,
doctormm@... writes:

> And is a four rank unit with 4, 4, 2, 2 stands a legal
> formation for Warrior?>>

No, it would not be, but I think Boyd meant that the third rank had 2 each of 2
different kinds of elements in it.

[Greg Regets]

Jon makes a very good point.

With a unit like this, you might consider a normal hill with steep
slopes to hide behind. At least that would offer you some protection.

g




--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, JonCleaves@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 3/5/2004 3:46:57 PM Eastern Standard Time,
spocksleftball@y... writes:
>
> > This gave me the ability to shoot at full factors. Long range
was 8@
> > and support was 16@ Unless super heavies or EHI, the
> > attacking unit
> > would take some serious damage.>>
>
> I know better than to get into these tactical kibitzes, but the
issue here is that a big HI/MI JLS B unit is asking to be charged by
two or three units, not just one, thus splitting its shooting down to
irrelevance.
> This is the kind of unit I drool over in my opponent's army.
>
> Now, the usual verbal counter to this is - hey these guys are
cheap, so if I get you to charge my big HI/MI unit with 2-3 of yours
I am 'winning'.
>
> This is incorrect. In order to mass those 2-3 units, I am
screening elsewhere, or better the other guy tried to 'close down the
table' with terrain and helped me conserve force to gang up on this
blob. The large suddenly routing unit in the middle of the other
guy's army is much more valuable than worrying that I took more
points to kill it than it was worth. I'd put 1000 points on 100 if
the death of that 100 opened a hole and caused a bunch of wavers....
>
> I see a lot of people get beat by thinking such a unit 'holds a
part of the table securely.' Me - I see target.
>
> I also see a lot of situations where a guy wins a local tourney
against guys who are intimidated by large units and/or try to go one-
for-one with them only to have those same big units used against him
when the quality of opponent increases.
>
> Watch out for that.
>
> J