Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[Frank Gilson]

Entirely no-missile army...very interesting...;)

Well, there are lists you can run. I'd recommend looking at Brigans, which
beat a lot of infantry, and have a very good shot against elephants, and
with HI sporting pavise in front they can push away any shooters.

Maximal Brigans are found on the Feudal French list, which can be taken
roughly as follows:
CinC (spanish) 2E Irr B EHK L,Sh (190)
Sub (french) 2E Irr B EHK L,Sh (130)
2E Irr B HK L,Sh (spanish) (91)
2 units of 4E Irr B LMI HTS,JLS,Sh/HTS,JLS (spanish brought some moogs)
(158)
6E Irr C LC L,Sh (spanish) (97)
2 units of 2E Irr A EHK L,Sh (french) (242)
2 units of 2E Irr B HK L,Sh (french) (182)
3 units of 7E Irr C HI 2HCT,Pa(3E)/MI JLS(3E)/LMI JLS(1E) (brigans) (381)
12 Irr C LI CB (49)
This is 1520 points...

A better list, perhaps, although with worse knights but improved supporting
troops, is Feudal German. Anybody care to post that up here (although I
recall Ewan mentioning it a while back).

Frank

>Message: 25
> Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 15:56:13 -0400
> From: JonCleaves@...
>Subject: Re: Re: Call To Arms Tournament Report
>
>In a message dated 5/3/2004 3:42:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>spocksleftball@... writes:
>
> > It is as I have feared...Jon's playing style mirrors mine
> > (or visa versa).>>
>
>Nothing to fear, Boyd. I suck at this game. Just ask Ewan...lol
>
>Sorry - couldn't resist. Many
>
>Ever since my Han debacle last summer, I have been working on LMI-K
>tactics, playing more non-fantasy Warrior than at any other point in my
>life. My biggest obstacle is the number of other periods I play in besides
>ancient/medieval (I know - horrors!...lol)
>I sat the Han out this year to motivate me to get another army painted in
>25mm and to try and put what happened behind me. They'll be back - and
>then it will be taking what I have learned and transitioning to LHI-missile
>cav.
>
>I am looking into my next 25mm army, which initially is Sassanids. I got
>them to give my best friend an historical opponent, but I am also looking
>into an entirely no-missile army to counter Mark's theory that missile fire
>rules in Warrior...lol
>
>Juan Clihavez

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[Frank Gilson]

Entirely no-missile army...very interesting...;)

Well, there are lists you can run. I'd recommend looking at Brigans, which
beat a lot of infantry, and have a very good shot against elephants, and
with HI sporting pavise in front they can push away any shooters.

Maximal Brigans are found on the Feudal French list, which can be taken
roughly as follows:
CinC (spanish) 2E Irr B EHK L,Sh (190)
Sub (french) 2E Irr B EHK L,Sh (130)
2E Irr B HK L,Sh (spanish) (91)
2 units of 4E Irr B LMI HTS,JLS,Sh/HTS,JLS (spanish brought some moogs)
(158)
6E Irr C LC L,Sh (spanish) (97)
2 units of 2E Irr A EHK L,Sh (french) (242)
2 units of 2E Irr B HK L,Sh (french) (182)
3 units of 7E Irr C HI 2HCT,Pa(3E)/MI JLS(3E)/LMI JLS(1E) (brigans) (381)
12 Irr C LI CB (49)
This is 1520 points...

A better list, perhaps, although with worse knights but improved supporting
troops, is Feudal German. Anybody care to post that up here (although I
recall Ewan mentioning it a while back).

Frank

>Message: 25
> Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 15:56:13 -0400
> From: JonCleaves@...
>Subject: Re: Re: Call To Arms Tournament Report
>
>In a message dated 5/3/2004 3:42:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>spocksleftball@... writes:
>
> > It is as I have feared...Jon's playing style mirrors mine
> > (or visa versa).>>
>
>Nothing to fear, Boyd. I suck at this game. Just ask Ewan...lol
>
>Sorry - couldn't resist. Many
>
>Ever since my Han debacle last summer, I have been working on LMI-K
>tactics, playing more non-fantasy Warrior than at any other point in my
>life. My biggest obstacle is the number of other periods I play in besides
>ancient/medieval (I know - horrors!...lol)
>I sat the Han out this year to motivate me to get another army painted in
>25mm and to try and put what happened behind me. They'll be back - and
>then it will be taking what I have learned and transitioning to LHI-missile
>cav.
>
>I am looking into my next 25mm army, which initially is Sassanids. I got
>them to give my best friend an historical opponent, but I am also looking
>into an entirely no-missile army to counter Mark's theory that missile fire
>rules in Warrior...lol
>
>Juan Clihavez

_________________________________________________________________
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[scott holder]

We talked about this at CTA. The "no missile" guidelines means no missiles
except JLS, cuz they don't really count:):)

If you go with that guideline, it opens up all kinds of possibilities. Elephant
armies might work if you find the right ones with no "real missile" armed
crewmem.

I like this as a tournament concept.

-----Original Message-----
From: Frank Gilson [mailto:franktrevorgilson@...]
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2004 12:10 PM
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [WarriorRules] Digest Number 1289


Entirely no-missile army...very interesting...;)

Well, there are lists you can run. I'd recommend looking at Brigans, which
beat a lot of infantry, and have a very good shot against elephants, and
with HI sporting pavise in front they can push away any shooters.

Maximal Brigans are found on the Feudal French list, which can be taken
roughly as follows:
CinC (spanish) 2E Irr B EHK L,Sh (190)
Sub (french) 2E Irr B EHK L,Sh (130)
2E Irr B HK L,Sh (spanish) (91)
2 units of 4E Irr B LMI HTS,JLS,Sh/HTS,JLS (spanish brought some moogs)
(158)
6E Irr C LC L,Sh (spanish) (97)
2 units of 2E Irr A EHK L,Sh (french) (242)
2 units of 2E Irr B HK L,Sh (french) (182)
3 units of 7E Irr C HI 2HCT,Pa(3E)/MI JLS(3E)/LMI JLS(1E) (brigans) (381)
12 Irr C LI CB (49)
This is 1520 points...

A better list, perhaps, although with worse knights but improved supporting
troops, is Feudal German. Anybody care to post that up here (although I
recall Ewan mentioning it a while back).

Frank

>Message: 25
> Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 15:56:13 -0400
> From: JonCleaves@...
>Subject: Re: Re: Call To Arms Tournament Report
>
>In a message dated 5/3/2004 3:42:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>spocksleftball@... writes:
>
> > It is as I have feared...Jon's playing style mirrors mine
> > (or visa versa).>>
>
>Nothing to fear, Boyd. I suck at this game. Just ask Ewan...lol
>
>Sorry - couldn't resist. Many
>
>Ever since my Han debacle last summer, I have been working on LMI-K
>tactics, playing more non-fantasy Warrior than at any other point in my
>life. My biggest obstacle is the number of other periods I play in besides
>ancient/medieval (I know - horrors!...lol)
>I sat the Han out this year to motivate me to get another army painted in
>25mm and to try and put what happened behind me. They'll be back - and
>then it will be taking what I have learned and transitioning to LHI-missile
>cav.
>
>I am looking into my next 25mm army, which initially is Sassanids. I got
>them to give my best friend an historical opponent, but I am also looking
>into an entirely no-missile army to counter Mark's theory that missile fire
>rules in Warrior...lol
>
>Juan Clihavez

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[John Murphy]

How about EIR for a no-missile army?

Without any foot able to skirmish them from >40p the legions have
just had their worst nightmare removed. They are probably going to be
able to hit home very well in this kind of tournament. And there are
not a whole lot foot types better than Romans now if making contact
is a given. All those otherwise useless HC JLS, well they just became
the only useable mounted skirmish troops for slowing down enemy foot.
And the LHI JLS (no slings) are now as good as you can get for some
other things.

I think on the surface at least this combo becomes very strong and
has its major weaknesses mitigated.

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 5/6/2004 3:00:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
jjmurphy@... writes:

> How about EIR for a no-missile army?>>

An early contender for my next army, but they have a bolt shooter minimum. My
personal rule for 'no missile' is JLS is ok, but artillery is not.

J

[scott holder]

How about EIR for a no-missile army?


OTOH, some of the super-peltast dominant armies would be a good counter the EIR.
You can skirmish at 40p, can't get caught, have potentially better cav (key word
potentially since EIR can have some allied possibilities) and can work in all
kinds of terrain.

Another thought is that the classical pike trash armies would also do
potentially fine. Currently, the first round Legionary vs Phalangite matchup
doesn't change--it does in subsequent continuous bounds granted. But, you can
buy a lot more trashy pikemen and way cool supporting troops than the Roman HI.
Then it becomes a test of you working the flanks. Suddenly, everybody's LC JLS,
Sh guys look pretty good. Of course then it becomes a die roll when hordes of
6E LC JLS, Sh guys slam into each other looking who wins the battle(s) of the
flanks!

Let's go one step further and use some Brigan/Knight combination first outlined
by Frank. Run these as 3 units pods (1-2 units Brigans, 1-2 units Knights) and
the Roman player's worst nightmare comes about: you can't go into fulcum to
defend against the knights cuz then the Brigans will beat on you--don't go into
fulcum and the knights will run you over like the latin speed bump that you
are:) Something similar could be concocted with 4E pike units and elephants
although I'd need those lists in front of me to see if any of the El don't come
with a B or LB or something like that.

Now, don't let any of the above lead anyone to think that EIR wouldn't be a
great selection for such a tourney. I think it illustrates how many armies
would come into play here and the differences in approaches we'd need. I also
think that many of the Dark Age or other barbarian trash lists would work quite
nicely here. Work around your fyrd blocks with some cav backing them up,
interesting. And the Biblical lists and all the unease-causing chariots, some
of which don't have Bs, another interesting possibility.

The fear is that somebody will find the 1-2 lists in all of this mix that will
totally unbalance the concept.....and not share that with anyone until tourney
time.

Most elephant armies are out because they invariably have some dude with a B (or
many Bs) but then an army like Numidians would be okay since I think the Els can
be JLS armed. But then the Feudal Warrior knight armies could unhinge the whole
thing but if there are any required non-JLS missile troops, that knocks a whole
slew of them out of the picture.

Actually, Jon's original thoughts was to work on a non-missile army to play in
an entirely open environment and make it work. It's akin to the Spanish lists
in teams a few years back (which I borrowed, the list that is, to play in 15mm
Teams) in which a non-missile army worked just fine in an open environment thank
you very much:):)

scott

[scott holder]

> How about EIR for a no-missile army?>>

An early contender for my next army, but they have a bolt shooter minimum. My
personal rule for 'no missile' is JLS is ok, but artillery is not.

>That's my thought as well. EIR is out because of the arty, a Severan MIR is
out because of the Auxilia Bowmen. However, if your EIR legionaries are NOT
segmenta armored types, you could run Marians. A perfect "no missile" legionary
dominant army.

>Anything that has a range of more than 40p is out. Hmmmm, how many guys
hurling naptha would we see? Those lists probably have some missile trash in em
so we might not even see them.

>If I played this in 25mm and having the lead that I have, I'd consider my
Anglo-Danish or Galatians. Interesting possibilities with each. I'd consider
my Biblical stuff but dammit, I don't remember if Late Hebrews have required
missile troops or any of the early-ish Sumerians are in the same boat. Neither
army would be terribly well suited to fight off the expected Brigan/Knight horde
although all the chariots would at least keep the Brigans carefully deployed so
as to not become uneasy.

scott

[John Murphy]

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "Holder, Scott"
<Scott.Holder@f...> wrote:
> >if your EIR legionaries are NOT segmenta armored types, you could
run Marians.

Ya know, I keep overlooking these guys but darn this is not a bad
army, maybe even in an open.

I see at least 3 good 1.5-rank JLS cav units. Some Irreg A crazies if
so inclined, though not as useful as some others. Moogish foot (it's
even Spanish to boot) to go along with the legions, some of the
legions can also be cheaper D class. You even get a couple JLS-armed
circus Elephants to give coronaries to knights. So, yes this is a
real good one in my book. No wonder Todd Schneider gobbled these up -
a lot more to play with than EIR.

And if the points work out it could play, possibly quite well, in
_both_ no-missile and Dogs-of-War.

My legions are segmenta types though. Had to have that classic look.

[Todd Schneider]

Well, other than the required Bolt Shooters, I think it’s a good choice.



Early Imperial would work as well I think…



Todd



_____

From: J. Murphy [mailto:jjmurphy@...]
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2004 2:00 PM
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [WarriorRules] Re: Digest Number 1289



How about EIR for a no-missile army?

Without any foot able to skirmish them from >40p the legions have
just had their worst nightmare removed. They are probably going to be
able to hit home very well in this kind of tournament. And there are
not a whole lot foot types better than Romans now if making contact
is a given. All those otherwise useless HC JLS, well they just became
the only useable mounted skirmish troops for slowing down enemy foot.
And the LHI JLS (no slings) are now as good as you can get for some
other things.

I think on the surface at least this combo becomes very strong and
has its major weaknesses mitigated.







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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Todd Schneider]

Marians in Dog’s of War don’t work, the “D” Legions are an additional unit,
you don’t get to downgrade them to C’s…and if you could, there’s not enough
points left over.



Late Imperial Romans IMO work best for a Dogs of War Theme if your Roman
inclined, they have enough options and points to give to match up well to a
lot of armies…



I like playing the Marians, the New List Rules are very nice, and make some
of the historical matchup very interesting and exciting. I played Jon
Cleaves last night, he ran Early Germans, to a 5-3 bloodbath that was a lot
closer than most of our other battles…I think Last Night was thie first time
he took more waver tests in the first three bounds than I did.



Here’s the list I was using:



CinC 2E Reg 1/2A, ½ B HTW, Sh, PA @ 157

Sub Gen 2E Irr B EHC L, P @ 127 (Armenian) @ 127



German Cav 2E 1/2HC, ½ MC Irr B JLS, Sh @ 73

Legionaries 3 x 4E Reg C HI HTW, Sh @ 318

Legionaries 2E Reg C HI HTW, Sh @



Thracians 4E Irr C LMI 2HCW, JLS, Sh @ 73

Scutarii 4E LMI Irr C HTW, Sh @ 61



Armenian Horse Archers 4E Irr D B @ 49

Armenian Archers 8E Irr D B @ 41

3x Cataphracts 2E Irr C L @ 219



1201 points, 26 Scouting points.





What I do is force march the Legions to the table centerline (or as close as
I can, and set the Thracians and Scutarii in between them (usually, this is
terrain dependent, with enough of a gap to run the EHC through.



The CinC Legion and the other 2E Legion are supposed to be used as
replacement/reinforcer’s, but they spend a lot of time plugging up some
holes.



Last Night against Jon I had a couple of effective charges, getting the
Thracians and a Cataphract unit to charge Impetuously against a German
Unit…It was a tough battle, ultimately his Irr A guys started rolling up and
I failed enough wavers that both my commands were in retreat…



I learned a lot from it though.



Todd





_____

From: J. Murphy [mailto:jjmurphy@...]
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2004 3:02 PM
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [WarriorRules] Re: Digest Number 1289



--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "Holder, Scott"
<Scott.Holder@f...> wrote:
> >if your EIR legionaries are NOT segmenta armored types, you could
run Marians.

Ya know, I keep overlooking these guys but darn this is not a bad
army, maybe even in an open.

I see at least 3 good 1.5-rank JLS cav units. Some Irreg A crazies if
so inclined, though not as useful as some others. Moogish foot (it's
even Spanish to boot) to go along with the legions, some of the
legions can also be cheaper D class. You even get a couple JLS-armed
circus Elephants to give coronaries to knights. So, yes this is a
real good one in my book. No wonder Todd Schneider gobbled these up -
a lot more to play with than EIR.

And if the points work out it could play, possibly quite well, in
_both_ no-missile and Dogs-of-War.

My legions are segmenta types though. Had to have that classic look.







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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Kelly Wilkinson]

Hmmm.... Why not consider Later Judeans then? Take the Roman ally and downgrade
all of the legionaries to "D" class. This certainly could be a fun dogs of war
army with general units of EHC L, Sh and good morale super peltasts!

kelly

"J. Murphy" <jjmurphy@...> wrote:
--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "Holder, Scott"
<Scott.Holder@f...> wrote:
> >if your EIR legionaries are NOT segmenta armored types, you could
run Marians.

Ya know, I keep overlooking these guys but darn this is not a bad
army, maybe even in an open.

I see at least 3 good 1.5-rank JLS cav units. Some Irreg A crazies if
so inclined, though not as useful as some others. Moogish foot (it's
even Spanish to boot) to go along with the legions, some of the
legions can also be cheaper D class. You even get a couple JLS-armed
circus Elephants to give coronaries to knights. So, yes this is a
real good one in my book. No wonder Todd Schneider gobbled these up -
a lot more to play with than EIR.

And if the points work out it could play, possibly quite well, in
_both_ no-missile and Dogs-of-War.

My legions are segmenta types though. Had to have that classic look.



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[John Murphy]

Pretty neat. For different reasons. Possibility of Dogs of War use
but also some interesting sizeable allied mounted support options for
an open, better than Sarmatians. I think you could adapt EIR as well
as Marian using the list, which is good for me with my lorica
segmenta.

This is another list that seems to have gotten, with enough Romans, a
real good mix of troops. Maybe even better since you can spend a bit
fewer points here and there (and the generals are more useful in an
open).

Missing the Marian circus elephants though!

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, kelly wilkinson
<jwilkinson62@y...> wrote:
> Hmmm.... Why not consider Later Judeans then? Take the Roman ally
and downgrade all of the legionaries to "D" class. This certainly
could be a fun dogs of war army with general units of EHC L, Sh and
good morale super peltasts!