Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

Ewan McNay · Posted: Thu May 08, 2003 6:28 am Post subject: Re: Digest Number 902

First, a plea for list management: can people *please trim* their posts,
and not just quote everything (often including several iterations of the
Yahoo blurb)? Plowing through multi-thousand line digests is no fun.
Thanks.

(as for those posting in html... I'll leave that for a separate rant)

Then on to real content

> From: Sean-Patrick Scott <sscott04@...>
> On Running/Playing the Condotta
>
> First off, Ewan you are a bit off on my success with the Condatta. I win 75%
> of the time, less in the beginning, more now.

Did I say otherwise? I suspect what you are referring to is that I said
somethying like 'even Sean can't get them right' - which referred just to
getting an army out of the list that I would want to use, not to your
(admirable, with this army) success rate. Sorry if it came across
otherwise.

> Disavantage: No cheap guys, especially with JLS to fight elephants. These are
> the bane of existance, as not much in the army can stop Elephants. The other
> major disavantage is no shieled SHK. THis might not seem big, but Regular
> knights against Ir Sh SHK can be a real problem, as a +2 roll when you start
> down -1 for not having a shield can lead to a rout. Not as bad against
> Regulars, becuase they are less likely to get +2.

The reduced ease of impetuosity is also a factor here. That added to
the lack of shields is a rout; avoidable by superior generalship, but not
always.

I would add lack of decent light troops to the 'all lists' section. Even
Venice doesn't have good regular lights.

> Tactics:
> General: Speed and density of points is what this army has. The knights should
> be hitting en mass by turn 3. Anything else and you will be outshot, whithered
> away, exhausted. Also, with so many knight units, a LI screen is charged with
> Reg C's to get to the crunchy stuff behind. LC is charged with Reg C knights
> to
> get to stuff behind. Force march Reg LC to center. Don't get attached to
> generals as they will be charging in the front line very early in the game.

I agree, I just don't think that a decent opponent is going to let you hit
anything that you can beat. Wildly generalising, of course, and depending
on their force - a Roman for instance willl have little choice if heavy on
close foot (a knight's idea of a good time!)

> LC horde: Take Reg C knights, and dismount. No bow/JLS will effect you (even
> disorderd). Shooting at SHI -2 just is not good. If you rotate units, you can
> charge with mounted to try and catch. The most important thing is getting the
> SHI to take the bow shots. Look for crunchy stuff. Watch out for HC with L,
> they
> will kill you on foot, but thats what your support unit is for....

This is a big plus for the easier dismounting of Warior, agreed. BUT..
those units charging are still taking multi fatigues each time, and
getting tired real fast, or you're not going anywhere. And all of your
support troops are very, very vulnerable without K support, so you can
easily lose the game without getting any K into combat.

> LMI Horde: Charge, Charge, Charge.... and hope the opponent fails waver tests.
> Waiting for them to form a line at teh table center with areas to come through
> with irA is bad. Pin the marchers as far back as posible and try and go
> through
> the first line by turn 3, hoping that the routes break morale.

Yes. LMI horde is something that you should happily roll over. Even the
LC CB now have a roll in pinning the LMI then countering out of charge
reach to let the knights go in against stationary foot (doable even
without LC, but harder)

e

joncleaves · Moderator Joined: 29 Mar 2006 Posts: 16447

In a message dated 5/7/2003 22:30:44 Central Daylight Time,
ewan.mcnay@... writes:

> Yes. LMI horde is something that you should happily roll over. Even the
> LC CB now have a roll in pinning the LMI then countering out of charge
> reach to let the knights go in against stationary foot (doable even
> without LC, but harder)
>
> e
>

My DGS friends (and Dave Smith) should take note -> the irreg LMI - mounted
interaction is an important one if you ever want to win with an irreg LMI
army (or at least one that uses a lot of irreg LMI support). As I have been
teaching out here, you do NOT have to take those mounted charges at a halt,
but you have to master not letting the other guy pin/counter and then end
with all of his stuff out of 120p. You'll note that my LMI this past
saturday did not take a single mounted charge at a halt (even against the
Hun...) and with the exception of the +4/-2 split against Jon B never lost
one of those fights either, even if it took a couple bounds to win them. If
you want to play Gauls, Spanish, Arab Conquest, Thracians, Vikings, etc. you
*have* to master the weapons (counters, retirements - which are underutilized
- and not marching your full last segment, etc.) that make this happen. Too
often people just throw their stuff across the table without regard for the
end distances and/or just assume that they have to end 240p from the enemy.

J

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Greg Regets · Imperator Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 2988

Three unit tag teams consisting of;

2 Elements of super cheap Reg. LI
2 Elements of Irr HC with L
4 Elements of Reg/Irr LC with JLS

.. can be very tough on big Irreg. LMI units. You are a little point heavy
here (coming in at somewhere around 170), but make the assumption that you are
point light somewhere else.

Greg

> <html><body>
>
>
> <tt>
> In a message dated 5/7/2003 22:30:44 Central Daylight Time, 
> ewan.mcnay@... writes: 
> 
> > Yes. LMI horde is something that you should happily roll over. Even
the 
> > LC CB now have a roll in pinning the LMI then countering out of charge 
> > reach to let the knights go in against stationary foot (doable even 
> > without LC, but harder) 
> > 
> > e 
> > 
> 
> My DGS friends (and Dave Smith) should take note -> the irreg LMI - mounted
 
> interaction is an important one if you ever want to win with an irreg LMI 
> army (or at least one that uses a lot of irreg LMI support). As I have been
 
> teaching out here, you do NOT have to take those mounted charges at a halt,
 
> but you have to master not letting the other guy pin/counter and then end 
> with all of his stuff out of 120p. You'll note that my LMI this past 
> saturday did not take a single mounted charge at a halt (even against the 
> Hun...) and with the exception of the +4/-2 split against Jon B never lost
 
> one of those fights either, even if it took a couple bounds to win them. If
 
> you want to play Gauls, Spanish, Arab Conquest, Thracians, Vikings, etc. you
 
> *have* to master the weapons (counters, retirements - which are underutilized
 
> - and not marching your full last segment, etc.) that make this happen. Too
 
> often people just throw their stuff across the table without regard for the
 
> end distances and/or just assume that they have to end 240p from the
enemy. 
> 
> J 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] 
> 
> </tt>
>
> 
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Greg Regets · Imperator Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 2988

You would definately only want to use this on one of those big 24's or 27's,
that generally come in at between 106 and 133 points - so the margin may not be
all that accute.

Fortunately for this sort of tactician, it relatively easy, and convenient to
make up those points with a negative margin pin on either side of this
combination. As the second charge unit will not need to be impetuous, they free
up after one pursuit bound, in time to weigh in on either side of the broken
unit.

The key of course is having the prompting to both retire the light infantry,
and prompt the mounted to charge (if required).

G

In a message dated 5/8/2003 6:40:39 AM Eastern Standard Time, gar@...
writes: 
> 
> > Three unit tag teams consisting of; 
> > 
> > 2 Elements of super cheap Reg. LI 
> > 2 Elements of Irr HC with L 
> > 4 Elements of Reg/Irr LC with JLS 
> > 
> > .. can be very tough on big Irreg. LMI units. You are a little point heavy
 
> > here (coming in at somewhere around 170), but make the 
> > assumption that you are 
> > point light somewhere else.>. 
> 
> Well, you'll get no disagreement from me that that combo is a nightmare
(given you know
what to do with it). The counter is to recognize what is happening and make a
player
who devotes that level of resources to a single LMI unit pay for it in another
part of the
battlefield.

joncleaves · Moderator Joined: 29 Mar 2006 Posts: 16447

In a message dated 5/8/2003 6:40:39 AM Eastern Standard Time, gar@...
writes:

> Three unit tag teams consisting of;
>
> 2 Elements of super cheap Reg. LI
> 2 Elements of Irr HC with L
> 4 Elements of Reg/Irr LC with JLS
>
> .. can be very tough on big Irreg. LMI units. You are a little point heavy
> here (coming in at somewhere around 170), but make the
> assumption that you are
> point light somewhere else.>.

Well, you'll get no disagreement from me that that combo is a nightmare (given
you know what to do with it). The counter is to recognize what is happening and
make a player who devotes that level of resources to a single LMI unit pay for
it in another part of the battlefield.