Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[Frank Gilson]

Ewan writes, and Jon replies:

>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 18
> Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 13:19:59 -0000
> From: "ewanmcnay" <ewan.mcnay@...>
>Subject: Army cycles (and NICT)
>
>It's been my experience that army choices tend to run in cycles -
>knights are king, so everyone brings elephants, so everyone brings
>Romans/bows, so everyone brings knights..
>
>..and I wondered where people think we are in this cycle. I have seen
>a lot of commentary about missile-armed foot recently, which (i) makes
>me wonder whether we will see massed reg LMI missile foot in the NICT,
>and (ii) what people would bring as their weapons/troops of choice to
>deal with this? Or do others have a different perspective on the
>cycle state?
>
>Also, now that it's too late, I took a look at the NASAMW Vijayanagara
>list, and I think that was clearly the 'right' answer as to what to
>take for the NICT. Good elephants supported by a mass of regular
>loose foot that can be part LHI, and is not too expensive - the curse
>of Khmers - as wel as decent reg LI JLS, Sh and some Indian Reg EHC
>lancers just in case. Only two downsides, really: the LMI B are
>shieldless (which others worry about more than I, I confess), and I
>would have had to pretend to be Indian with Khmer figures, which would
>have aound up Scott. Wait, maybe that's an upside...
>
>Seriously, this looks to be maybe the best of the several
>'elephants-plus-reg loose foot' lists going - thoughts from others?
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 19
> Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 09:36:02 -0400
> From: JonCleaves@...
>Subject: Re: Army cycles (and NICT)
>
>In a message dated 7/17/2003 8:19:59 AM Eastern Standard Time,
>ewan.mcnay@... writes:
>
>
><<It's been my experience that army choices tend to run in cycles - knights
>are king, so everyone brings elephants, so everyone brings Romans/bows, so
>everyone brings knights..>>
>
> >....[reference Kingdom of V army..] Seriously, this looks to be maybe the
>best of the several 'elephants-plus-reg loose foot' lists going - thoughts
>from others?>>
>
>I agree with your assessment of cycles, Ewan. But I'd add it is more
>subtly a cycle of 'support troops' than a cycle of armies.
>Given that we have not all broken the code on how to fight an all or mostly
>mounted force, I'd (Lord forgive me) break the 'categories' of armies at
>the NICT into: knights, elephants, barbarian foot, and missile foot. The
>question of which to be, besides being driven much more by a player's
>'style' than other issues discussed here to my mind, is also driven by the
>type of support troops that go with the main category just listed. What do
>you want to have with your elephants? Well, what kills elephants? JLS
>armed foot of good morale, for example. What kills *them*? *That's* the
>higher order question that also decides which list to choose. Kingdom of V
>armies come with excellent support troops to cover elephant
>'vulnerabilities', so I think Ewan has correctly idenitified them as a
>major contender.
>
>I'd add, though, that Kingdom of V (or any other army) in the hands of
>someone who is uncomfortable with it (or is a beginner) is far, far less of
>a concern than any army in the hands of someone who is a good tactictian
>(as opposed to a 'rules marginalist') and/or who is extremely comfortable
>with it. If I know my army inside and out and know how it matches up in
>most/all situations, I am thinking about tactics while my opponent is
>counting factors on the combat chart and trying to figure out how many
>march segments camels get. I am inside his decisions at that point and
>that is a greater advantage than any given by troop matchup. In my opinion
>anyway.
>
>Jon
>

Between Ewan and Jon we do get a very good set of points. Yes, there is a
"metagame", or a set of choices about what to run given what you expect
others to run. This begins with choice of army, for those of us with access
to enough lead to have such a choice ...and then continues through your
list planning phase in terms of how you buy out your army.

We do have some ebb and flow of army choices given expectations, however I
think that it is still the case that people run what they want to run. You
may constrain your choice to a set of lists you think are viable...but the
best choice is a combination of Ewan and Jons' thoughts...a viable list with
which you are very familiar.

Now, I'd like to address the Kingdom of Vijayanagara list.

Yes, it does have access to some regular EHC lancers. However, to get them
charging impetuously, you'd have to have an EHC general...generally (really
hard to get a general on an elephant, in line of command, charging, next to
your regular EHC, who can't charge the same target, rules 6.163 and
6.164)...but I have a question for Jon Cleaves: Can I declare a charge on
the same body by cavalry AND Elephants, only to have the Elephants charge be
cancelled? ...but to permit the regular cavalry to be impetuous because the
Elephants were their general? I would think no...

...phew...

Anyway...the list has elephants. Irr B w/ 2 crew JLS,B...but that type of
elephant doesn't throw out much shooting, nor do they have pike to cause a
-1 to enemy combat factor...after an initial bound of combat, they also
don't have additional crew figures to fight with. I consider them to be 3rd
in line of the type of elephant I want to run.

The list has no particularly useable light cavalry. None of its foot archers
can have any shields.

Finally, you must buy "guys waiting to die", 24 Irr D LMI JLS,Sh and 24 Irr
D LMI B. The archers, at least, serve some residual purpose and are
cheap...but those JLS,Sh guys suck about as bad as anything can.

Let me point out a 1600 pt. list and see what we end up with:
CinC JLS,B w/ PA on elephant with Irr B JLS,B crew and another similar
elephant for 166pts
Sub in a similar 2 elephant unit for 106pts
6 Reg C EHC L,Sh elephant proof for 88pts
6 Reg B EHC L,B,Sh elephant proof for 106pts (as much as the elephant sub
general!!!)
2 units of 4 Reg C LI JLS,Sh at 52pts for both
2 units of 12 Reg C LI B at 92pts for both
16 Reg C LMI JLS,Sh for 74pts (I hate these guys, by the way, my prejudice
though)
24 Irr D LMI JLS,Sh for 73pts
24 Irr D LMI B for 49pts
...that's our reasonable minimums...at a total so far of 806 points...half
the army.
This is an elephant army, and you want to run it that way, so we add:
2 units of 3 of our type of Elephants at 315pts for both, now we are up to
1121 total.
We're trying to use the regular javelin armed loose order guys...already
having 16 lets us get:
16 Reg C LHI/LMI JLS,Sh (1/4 can be LHI) for 90pts, 1211 total.
Note that we now have only 4 regular command factors left...so we've got to
be a little careful.

In order to give myself another unit of lancers, AND provide them all a way
to be impetuous, I'm buying an EHC sub-general...
Sub w/P and 5 Reg A EHC L,Sh elephant proof (technically might be able to
put him in the Reg C unit, but that would suck...) for 135pts, a new total
of 1346. I've got 254 left to buy with, and currently have 15 units in 3
commands with 14 scouting points...only 32 LI, which is a little less of a
line of 'lights' than I'd like, so some of the remaining points will be LI.

I want an LI unit that can actually chase off most enemy LI...that'd be
JLS,Sh...so I'll get a 12 man unit.
12 Reg C LI JLS,Sh for 58pts (note that they could be Irr C, but that's only
of benefit if I feel I need impetuous charges. I think the regular maneuver
capability is more important).

More LI archers will be good...I really like 12 man regular light archer
units, so I'll get two more.
2 units of 12 Reg C LI B at 92pts for both, our total is now 1496...104
points remaining.

There's something I haven't done, of course...Hindu foot can be in mixed
units...I just don't see much profit to mixing them, unless you want to put
Reg C LMI B as a third rank for the JLS units?

I'll let you all debate the list and spend the last 104 points...or change
what I've originally done!

Frank Gilson

_________________________________________________________________
Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail

[joncleaves]

Frank, you remain my favorite poster...

> )...but I have a question for Jon Cleaves: Can I declare a charge on the same
body by cavalry AND Elephants, only to have the Elephants charge be cancelled?
...but to permit the regular cavalry to be impetuous because the Elephants were
their general? I would think no...>>

Yes, actually. The general need only have declared a legal charge (6.164) it
being cancelled is after the impetuous determination. The EHC think the general
is joining them when they take off....

<< None of its foot archers can have any shields.>>

Always interesting to me how important that little thing can be...

> Finally, you must buy "guys waiting to die", 24 Irr D LMI JLS,Sh and 24 Irr
> D LMI B. The archers, at least, serve some residual purpose and are
> cheap...but those JLS,Sh guys suck about as bad as anything can.>>

Oh heck, they have their place. I beat an entire FW army with one unit of Irr D
LMI JLS, Sh. But at the NICT, I'd have to agree....lol

>
> There's something I haven't done, of course...Hindu foot can be in mixed
> units...I just don't see much profit to mixing them, unless you want to put
> Reg C LMI B as a third rank for the JLS units?>>

I put that third rank of B in my arab conquest JLS units sometimes. It forecs
split fire out to 240p due to the 'directly in front and capable of shooting'
priority.

J