Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[Mark Stone]

--- On March 2 Jonathan said: ---

> Based on suggestions I've gotten here, I was thinking of taking my Hungarian
LC
> as 9 element units three deep and arming them with bow and shield and then
> keeping them in skirmish to get the -2 and the 3rd rank shooting. This way I
> think the unit price is just a bit lower than a fully tricked out mongol 6
> element unit, they're pumping outjust as much bowfire, and they come out ahead
> on CPF calculations.
>
> Does this sound like the right way to go?

I've almost chimed in several times on this discussion, but other people have
made the good points I'd want to make.

I will disagree with Frank, and say that you should take infantry, and take
plenty of LI. Yes, they lack shields and will therefore be more vulnerable, but
they are still cheaper shooting than LC and present a bit of a problem for the
Mongol player as he gets virtually no LI.

For the LC: 9 element units are good. But don't spend the points for shields.
These guys are shooting platforms. Have some smaller LC units (4 elements,
probably) that are designed for combat and upgraded appropriately. As has been
said, he may get a rank and a half, but you get impetuousity with your LC, and
in the right circumstances (Mongols are tired and/or disordered) that can tip
the balance.


-Mark Stone

But using 4 element units of irreg LC always seemed like a waste of pts to me.
The 25
command pts cost more than the sum of the elements themselves. Is it worth it?
If so
why?

Jonathan


--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, Mark Stone <mark@...> wrote:
>
> --- On March 2 Jonathan said: ---
>
> > Based on suggestions I've gotten here, I was thinking of taking my
Hungarian
> LC
> > as 9 element units three deep and arming them with bow and shield and then
> > keeping them in skirmish to get the -2 and the 3rd rank shooting. This way
I
> > think the unit price is just a bit lower than a fully tricked out mongol 6
> > element unit, they're pumping outjust as much bowfire, and they come out
ahead
> > on CPF calculations.
> >
> > Does this sound like the right way to go?
>
> I've almost chimed in several times on this discussion, but other people have
> made the good points I'd want to make.
>
> I will disagree with Frank, and say that you should take infantry, and take
> plenty of LI. Yes, they lack shields and will therefore be more vulnerable,
but
> they are still cheaper shooting than LC and present a bit of a problem for the
> Mongol player as he gets virtually no LI.
>
> For the LC: 9 element units are good. But don't spend the points for shields.
> These guys are shooting platforms. Have some smaller LC units (4 elements,
> probably) that are designed for combat and upgraded appropriately. As has been
> said, he may get a rank and a half, but you get impetuousity with your LC, and
> in the right circumstances (Mongols are tired and/or disordered) that can tip
> the balance.
>
>
> -Mark Stone
>

[John Murphy]

I am sure Mark Stone knows better than I, but to probably embarrass
myself anyhow...

I can tell you as one with an army based around 1.5-rank JLS-armed
LC that the Mongols would love for you to take all the shieldless LI
(aka "LC charge targets") you like. It will be broken within the
first couple bounds and you will be having them count against your
command break-points, at the cost of only a bit of fatigue to his
LC, probably not even enough to make them tired for combat as a non-
impet LC charge is only 2 FP and your prep shot can be split up over
several units.

Mark is absolutely right about the shields, of course.

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, Mark Stone <mark@...> wrote:
>
> --- On March 2 Jonathan said: ---
>
> > Based on suggestions I've gotten here, I was thinking of taking
my Hungarian
> LC
> > as 9 element units three deep and arming them with bow and
shield and then
> > keeping them in skirmish to get the -2 and the 3rd rank
shooting. This way I
> > think the unit price is just a bit lower than a fully tricked
out mongol 6
> > element unit, they're pumping outjust as much bowfire, and they
come out ahead
> > on CPF calculations.
> >
> > Does this sound like the right way to go?
>
> I've almost chimed in several times on this discussion, but other
people have
> made the good points I'd want to make.
>
> I will disagree with Frank, and say that you should take infantry,
and take
> plenty of LI. Yes, they lack shields and will therefore be more
vulnerable, but
> they are still cheaper shooting than LC and present a bit of a
problem for the
> Mongol player as he gets virtually no LI.
>
> For the LC: 9 element units are good. But don't spend the points
for shields.
> These guys are shooting platforms. Have some smaller LC units (4
elements,
> probably) that are designed for combat and upgraded appropriately.
As has been
> said, he may get a rank and a half, but you get impetuousity with
your LC, and
> in the right circumstances (Mongols are tired and/or disordered)
that can tip
> the balance.
>
>
> -Mark Stone
>

[Frank Gilson]

Looking at the list, to get any infantry at all (the Irr C LI B), one
has to take 12 elements of 'not that useful' foot, Irr C MI LTS,Sh,
although 6 elements can be Irr C LMI with various weapons.

That's actually a good chunk of points...easily pinnable, ignorable,
or killable by the Mongol army.

Thus my reasoning behind sticking to just mounted.

Yes, 9 element LC units should be part of the main line...but don't
buy any shields for them...that's wasted points.

Sadly, your LC can't get much in the way of javelins unless you go
way out of your way to get expensive or allied troops.

Still...think massed shooting with hard charging HK and you should do
relatively well.

Frank

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, Mark Stone <mark@...> wrote:
>
> --- On March 2 Jonathan said: ---
>
> > Based on suggestions I've gotten here, I was thinking of taking
my Hungarian
> LC
> > as 9 element units three deep and arming them with bow and shield
and then
> > keeping them in skirmish to get the -2 and the 3rd rank
shooting. This way I
> > think the unit price is just a bit lower than a fully tricked out
mongol 6
> > element unit, they're pumping outjust as much bowfire, and they
come out ahead
> > on CPF calculations.
> >
> > Does this sound like the right way to go?
>
> I've almost chimed in several times on this discussion, but other
people have
> made the good points I'd want to make.
>
> I will disagree with Frank, and say that you should take infantry,
and take
> plenty of LI. Yes, they lack shields and will therefore be more
vulnerable, but
> they are still cheaper shooting than LC and present a bit of a
problem for the
> Mongol player as he gets virtually no LI.
>
> For the LC: 9 element units are good. But don't spend the points
for shields.
> These guys are shooting platforms. Have some smaller LC units (4
elements,
> probably) that are designed for combat and upgraded appropriately.
As has been
> said, he may get a rank and a half, but you get impetuousity with
your LC, and
> in the right circumstances (Mongols are tired and/or disordered)
that can tip
> the balance.
>
>
> -Mark Stone
>

[Todd Kaeser]

As someone who ran Mongol at Historicon - although in 1200 pts on a "full" table
(6x4) - here are my comments.

When I ran into John Garlic's Post Mongol Russian - I had the most problems
dealing with large units of cavalry (both HC L,B,Sh and LC B) Mongols typically
run small units to dart in and out and take flanks. LI B wasn't a big problem
for me - I attacked it where I wanted to and avoided it where I didn't. Foot
units w/o bow I just pinned and ignored unless I could kill them easily.
However, a big unit of LMI B, even if irreg could be a problem.

Flooding the board w/ terrain just won't cut it very easily due to the mongol
rule of picking up terrain. Assume you get 3 of your 4 picks (most would take
this for rolling) - the mongol player gets to pick up 2 for all intensive
purposes. Can you say clear board ?- not good vs. mongols w/ a foot based army.

Szeklers(sp) HC L,B,Sh Irreg A could be a problem in 12 man units - tough to
control, but could clear space in a variety of ways.

My 2 cents,

Todd K

Frank Gilson <franktrevorgilson@...> wrote:
Looking at the list, to get any infantry at all (the Irr C LI B), one
has to take 12 elements of 'not that useful' foot, Irr C MI LTS,Sh,
although 6 elements can be Irr C LMI with various weapons.

That's actually a good chunk of points...easily pinnable, ignorable,
or killable by the Mongol army.

Thus my reasoning behind sticking to just mounted.

Yes, 9 element LC units should be part of the main line...but don't
buy any shields for them...that's wasted points.

Sadly, your LC can't get much in the way of javelins unless you go
way out of your way to get expensive or allied troops.

Still...think massed shooting with hard charging HK and you should do
relatively well.

Frank

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, Mark Stone <mark@...> wrote:
>
> --- On March 2 Jonathan said: ---
>
> > Based on suggestions I've gotten here, I was thinking of taking
my Hungarian
> LC
> > as 9 element units three deep and arming them with bow and shield
and then
> > keeping them in skirmish to get the -2 and the 3rd rank
shooting. This way I
> > think the unit price is just a bit lower than a fully tricked out
mongol 6
> > element unit, they're pumping outjust as much bowfire, and they
come out ahead
> > on CPF calculations.
> >
> > Does this sound like the right way to go?
>
> I've almost chimed in several times on this discussion, but other
people have
> made the good points I'd want to make.
>
> I will disagree with Frank, and say that you should take infantry,
and take
> plenty of LI. Yes, they lack shields and will therefore be more
vulnerable, but
> they are still cheaper shooting than LC and present a bit of a
problem for the
> Mongol player as he gets virtually no LI.
>
> For the LC: 9 element units are good. But don't spend the points
for shields.
> These guys are shooting platforms. Have some smaller LC units (4
elements,
> probably) that are designed for combat and upgraded appropriately.
As has been
> said, he may get a rank and a half, but you get impetuousity with
your LC, and
> in the right circumstances (Mongols are tired and/or disordered)
that can tip
> the balance.
>
>
> -Mark Stone
>






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[Mark Stone]

Quoting "WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com" <WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com>:

> From: Todd Kaeser <hailkaeser@...>
>
> Flooding the board w/ terrain just won't cut it very easily due to the
> mongol rule of picking up terrain. Assume you get 3 of your 4 picks (most
> would take this for rolling) - the mongol player gets to pick up 2 for all
> intensive purposes. Can you say clear board ?- not good vs. mongols w/ a
> foot based army.
>

Actually, the Mongols only get the "pick up" rule against armies whose scouting
points they double. That seems unlikely against a Hungarian army with abundant
cheap LC.


-Mark Stone

[Todd Kaeser]

Good point - Thanks Mark - forgot that one :-)

Must be the lack of sleep??

Todd K

Mark Stone <mark@...> wrote:
Quoting "WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com" <WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com>:

> From: Todd Kaeser <hailkaeser@...>
>
> Flooding the board w/ terrain just won't cut it very easily due to the
> mongol rule of picking up terrain. Assume you get 3 of your 4 picks (most
> would take this for rolling) - the mongol player gets to pick up 2 for all
> intensive purposes. Can you say clear board ?- not good vs. mongols w/ a
> foot based army.
>

Actually, the Mongols only get the "pick up" rule against armies whose scouting
points they double. That seems unlikely against a Hungarian army with abundant
cheap LC.


-Mark Stone


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