Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[John Murphy]

My Roman theme list is looking like the following.

I should just barely have the troops, there is a possiblity I might
come up short a stand or two when I check the box at home but I do
not think so. There will be 4E Auxilia bowmen, some bolt shooters and
I think a bunch of Equites Alares still sitting in the box. If anyone
knows where to to get the 25mm Falcon Auxilia foot that is apparently
out of business now, that would help dfown the road getting these
guys built to match. Otherwise I guess it will be Foundry stuff, but
there are actually not that many more I could get anyhow.

I decided the best thing for now was to take the rest of the
legionaries out of the box and put them on the table. Kind of goes
along with "don't leave the best troops at home".

Unfortunately my bolt shooters will not have carts by Historicon.
Therefore I am only taking the minimum and have no idea what to do
with them. When the carts are added I will probably make whatever
adjustments to maximize them.

Beyond that given time I would like to add some of Lucuis-Quintus-
whats-his-name's Moorish Reg LC and just a few cheapo LI figures.
Then I'd either like to stay on the Danube and add a Sarmatian ally
or, especially if I do decently with them and get a chance to log
some games against Parthians, evolve these into an Eastern army with
Dromedarii detachments for the legionaries.

For this year's Historicon Roman theme, though, I might just spend
the last 10 points taking another 6E ditch to "top this off". Failing
that maybe blow 6 points to upgrade the front rank Equites to A class.

Open to and soliciting all suggestions, but particularly about how to
handle the new legion rules, the non-cart bolt shooters and the
ditches - and most especially agains the armies likely to be in the
theme.

Early Imperial Roman, Middle Period, Danubian
1,606 grand total points
least E @ 16 points (not counting TF's)

1x CinC
1E Reg A HC JLS,Sh(PA)
@ 154 points = 154 total points

2x Sub-general and Equites Alares
2E 1/2 Reg A 1/2 Reg B HC JLS,Sh(P)
@ 117 points = 234 total points

2x Equites Alares
2E Reg B HC JLS,Sh
@ 76 points = 152 total points

4x Veteran Legionaries including Stratores or Beneficiarii
4E 1/4 Reg A 3/4 Reg B HI HTW,Sh
@ 126 points = 504 total points

2x Veteran Legionaries
4E Reg B HI HTW,Sh
@ 122 points = 244 total points

1x Auxilia
4E Reg B LHI JLS,S,Sh
@ 138 points = 138 total points

1x Auxilia
4E Reg C LHI JLS,Sh
@ 106 points = 106 total points

1x Light Bolt-Shooter
2E Reg B Art 2 crew
@ 54 points = 54 total points

2x Ditch
6E obstacle
@ 10 points = 20 total points

[joncleaves]

Frank gives some great advice here on this list - owning it and being part of
the IW playtest, I agree with it all, for what that is worth.

Except:
As for the bolt shooters...buy 4 of them and double base them (as is
permitted, light bolt shooters can be put two per stand).

Please note that having two light bolt shooter MODELS on a stand for
aesthetics (which is allowed) does not permit the massing of extra crew onto a
base.
Please see 2.511.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Frank Gilson]

Mr. Murphy details a list-out for Early Imperial Romans. I played the
army recently in the mini-open at Cold Wars.

The list below is too few units, especially on 1600 points...being
only 13. This is going to allow an opponent to have 3 to 5 or so
units more on the table...useful for outflanking or follow up charges.

Also, the way the legionaries are organized doesn't allow them to
make best use of the replacement rules, as the units are so expensive
trying to run them in two lines just won't work.

The Equites (HC JLS,Sh) also have relatively few uses (other than
killing enemy unsupported LI, or charging onto exposed elements or
flanks after a combat is already engaged)...

I don't think two sub-generals are necessary either.

Thus...I would minimize the Equites, and change the legionaries to:
4 units of 16 Reg C HI HTW,Sh (424)
4 units of 8 Reg A/B HI HTW,Sh (280)
...and I would split the auxilia up into 8 man units...their purpose
is more efficiently accomplished in that way.

Use spare points to buy some 4 man units of Reg C LI B...as a force
marching screen. Isn't some Reg B LC B available also? two 4 man
units of that would be excellent...

As for the bolt shooters...buy 4 of them and double base them (as is
permitted, light bolt shooters can be put two per stand). Then stick
that unit on top of a hill, facing an area you feel combat is likely
to occur so they can provide shooting.

Frank Gilson

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "J. Murphy" <jjmurphy@s...>
wrote:
> My Roman theme list is looking like the following.
>
> I should just barely have the troops, there is a possiblity I might
> come up short a stand or two when I check the box at home but I do
> not think so. There will be 4E Auxilia bowmen, some bolt shooters
and
> I think a bunch of Equites Alares still sitting in the box. If
anyone
> knows where to to get the 25mm Falcon Auxilia foot that is
apparently
> out of business now, that would help dfown the road getting these
> guys built to match. Otherwise I guess it will be Foundry stuff,
but
> there are actually not that many more I could get anyhow.
>
> I decided the best thing for now was to take the rest of the
> legionaries out of the box and put them on the table. Kind of goes
> along with "don't leave the best troops at home".
>
> Unfortunately my bolt shooters will not have carts by Historicon.
> Therefore I am only taking the minimum and have no idea what to do
> with them. When the carts are added I will probably make whatever
> adjustments to maximize them.
>
> Beyond that given time I would like to add some of Lucuis-Quintus-
> whats-his-name's Moorish Reg LC and just a few cheapo LI figures.
> Then I'd either like to stay on the Danube and add a Sarmatian ally
> or, especially if I do decently with them and get a chance to log
> some games against Parthians, evolve these into an Eastern army
with
> Dromedarii detachments for the legionaries.
>
> For this year's Historicon Roman theme, though, I might just spend
> the last 10 points taking another 6E ditch to "top this off".
Failing
> that maybe blow 6 points to upgrade the front rank Equites to A
class.
>
> Open to and soliciting all suggestions, but particularly about how
to
> handle the new legion rules, the non-cart bolt shooters and the
> ditches - and most especially agains the armies likely to be in the
> theme.
>
> Early Imperial Roman, Middle Period, Danubian
> 1,606 grand total points
> least E @ 16 points (not counting TF's)
>
> 1x CinC
> 1E Reg A HC JLS,Sh(PA)
> @ 154 points = 154 total points
>
> 2x Sub-general and Equites Alares
> 2E 1/2 Reg A 1/2 Reg B HC JLS,Sh(P)
> @ 117 points = 234 total points
>
> 2x Equites Alares
> 2E Reg B HC JLS,Sh
> @ 76 points = 152 total points
>
> 4x Veteran Legionaries including Stratores or Beneficiarii
> 4E 1/4 Reg A 3/4 Reg B HI HTW,Sh
> @ 126 points = 504 total points
>
> 2x Veteran Legionaries
> 4E Reg B HI HTW,Sh
> @ 122 points = 244 total points
>
> 1x Auxilia
> 4E Reg B LHI JLS,S,Sh
> @ 138 points = 138 total points
>
> 1x Auxilia
> 4E Reg C LHI JLS,Sh
> @ 106 points = 106 total points
>
> 1x Light Bolt-Shooter
> 2E Reg B Art 2 crew
> @ 54 points = 54 total points
>
> 2x Ditch
> 6E obstacle
> @ 10 points = 20 total points

[Ed Kollmer]

Frank's remark about double basing the bolt shooters. What good does it
do??? You can't put two on a base and use both. You can put two on a base
but you only get one element of bolt shooters not two. Am I correct in
this??????



----- Original Message -----
From: "Frank Gilson" <franktrevorgilson@...>
To: <WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2004 10:07 PM
Subject: [WarriorRules] Re: EIR theme list


> Mr. Murphy details a list-out for Early Imperial Romans. I played the
> army recently in the mini-open at Cold Wars.
>
> The list below is too few units, especially on 1600 points...being
> only 13. This is going to allow an opponent to have 3 to 5 or so
> units more on the table...useful for outflanking or follow up charges.
>
> Also, the way the legionaries are organized doesn't allow them to
> make best use of the replacement rules, as the units are so expensive
> trying to run them in two lines just won't work.
>
> The Equites (HC JLS,Sh) also have relatively few uses (other than
> killing enemy unsupported LI, or charging onto exposed elements or
> flanks after a combat is already engaged)...
>
> I don't think two sub-generals are necessary either.
>
> Thus...I would minimize the Equites, and change the legionaries to:
> 4 units of 16 Reg C HI HTW,Sh (424)
> 4 units of 8 Reg A/B HI HTW,Sh (280)
> ...and I would split the auxilia up into 8 man units...their purpose
> is more efficiently accomplished in that way.
>
> Use spare points to buy some 4 man units of Reg C LI B...as a force
> marching screen. Isn't some Reg B LC B available also? two 4 man
> units of that would be excellent...
>
> As for the bolt shooters...buy 4 of them and double base them (as is
> permitted, light bolt shooters can be put two per stand). Then stick
> that unit on top of a hill, facing an area you feel combat is likely
> to occur so they can provide shooting.
>
> Frank Gilson
>
> --- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "J. Murphy" <jjmurphy@s...>
> wrote:
> > My Roman theme list is looking like the following.
> >
> > I should just barely have the troops, there is a possiblity I might
> > come up short a stand or two when I check the box at home but I do
> > not think so. There will be 4E Auxilia bowmen, some bolt shooters
> and
> > I think a bunch of Equites Alares still sitting in the box. If
> anyone
> > knows where to to get the 25mm Falcon Auxilia foot that is
> apparently
> > out of business now, that would help dfown the road getting these
> > guys built to match. Otherwise I guess it will be Foundry stuff,
> but
> > there are actually not that many more I could get anyhow.
> >
> > I decided the best thing for now was to take the rest of the
> > legionaries out of the box and put them on the table. Kind of goes
> > along with "don't leave the best troops at home".
> >
> > Unfortunately my bolt shooters will not have carts by Historicon.
> > Therefore I am only taking the minimum and have no idea what to do
> > with them. When the carts are added I will probably make whatever
> > adjustments to maximize them.
> >
> > Beyond that given time I would like to add some of Lucuis-Quintus-
> > whats-his-name's Moorish Reg LC and just a few cheapo LI figures.
> > Then I'd either like to stay on the Danube and add a Sarmatian ally
> > or, especially if I do decently with them and get a chance to log
> > some games against Parthians, evolve these into an Eastern army
> with
> > Dromedarii detachments for the legionaries.
> >
> > For this year's Historicon Roman theme, though, I might just spend
> > the last 10 points taking another 6E ditch to "top this off".
> Failing
> > that maybe blow 6 points to upgrade the front rank Equites to A
> class.
> >
> > Open to and soliciting all suggestions, but particularly about how
> to
> > handle the new legion rules, the non-cart bolt shooters and the
> > ditches - and most especially agains the armies likely to be in the
> > theme.
> >
> > Early Imperial Roman, Middle Period, Danubian
> > 1,606 grand total points
> > least E @ 16 points (not counting TF's)
> >
> > 1x CinC
> > 1E Reg A HC JLS,Sh(PA)
> > @ 154 points = 154 total points
> >
> > 2x Sub-general and Equites Alares
> > 2E 1/2 Reg A 1/2 Reg B HC JLS,Sh(P)
> > @ 117 points = 234 total points
> >
> > 2x Equites Alares
> > 2E Reg B HC JLS,Sh
> > @ 76 points = 152 total points
> >
> > 4x Veteran Legionaries including Stratores or Beneficiarii
> > 4E 1/4 Reg A 3/4 Reg B HI HTW,Sh
> > @ 126 points = 504 total points
> >
> > 2x Veteran Legionaries
> > 4E Reg B HI HTW,Sh
> > @ 122 points = 244 total points
> >
> > 1x Auxilia
> > 4E Reg B LHI JLS,S,Sh
> > @ 138 points = 138 total points
> >
> > 1x Auxilia
> > 4E Reg C LHI JLS,Sh
> > @ 106 points = 106 total points
> >
> > 1x Light Bolt-Shooter
> > 2E Reg B Art 2 crew
> > @ 54 points = 54 total points
> >
> > 2x Ditch
> > 6E obstacle
> > @ 10 points = 20 total points
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

[John Murphy]

Just don't know what to say to that one. Guess I came out and asked
for comments though. Unfortunately, given the way the army is built I
do not know that there is much I can do to follow the advice except
scrap a bunch of HC for bolt shooters. And if I did that with my
current knowledge of artillery tactics it would be a big mistake.
Sometimes you just have play it the way it is right for you and that
is going to have to be one of them.

When I get my Moors, LI trash, Sarmatians, Dromedaries and bolter
carts painted up for these guys, though, they will hopefully fare
better. But that will not be in time sorry to say.

As far as legionary unit sizes, they are built in 4E units with one
stand in 4 having a standard, musician and Centurion. At least for
the theme this would argue in favor of keeping them as 4E units. I
seem to be ridiculously stuck on this (like running 3E units of
LIR/Patsy Aux because that is how their shields are painted up). But
I am, frankly, suprised more lead-pushers can not see my point there.

I am not sure I see why running 4x4E units in front of 2x4E units is
somehow _so_ much worse than running 4x4E units in front of 4x2E
units. Since charge fatigue is really not an issue for regular foot I
don't really see what the smaller units buy you beyond just a bit of
flexibility which could potentially be countered by greater ability
to soak up CPF.

The HC I need to deal with LI/LMI/LHI missile skirmishers that
permeate Warrior so the legions can catch them. This might make such
troops either not come near the legions (LI) or stay out of skirmish
so the legions can catch them (LMI/LHI), or, if they do go into
skirmish, hopefully ride them down and catch them in the butt on
their mandatory evade. That is all they are for, though maybe they
would do better as lance-armed which I could see doing. Since this is
still a great weakness of the close-order legions I do not see why
everyone feels they are such a waste.

But I imagine I am going to find out on all of this.

In a message dated 28/03/2004 23:45:58 GMT Daylight Time,
jjmurphy@... writes:

> If anyone
> knows where to to get the 25mm Falcon Auxilia foot that is apparently
> out of business now,

Hello,
Is www.falconminiatures.net any use?

Steve


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[John Murphy]

Yeah, hope I didn't sound unappreciative that he took the time to
comment on it. It is just that there is a lot of what he (and others)
said that I am somewhat (though not to the degree you or he is) aware
of but simply can not fix until after Historicon. That part is a bit
frustrating so please excuse if it shows (though that would be no
excuse on my part).

Other things like 4E versus 2E are kind of items where, heck, if I do
not run them like the sizes they are built in a theme when will I
ever?

And does the unit size really make that huge a difference - I still
don't "see the light". We are not talking about units that take
fatigue for charging like lots of tiny mounted units, or that get
extra figures because of halves rouded up. Is the flex that big a
difference 2E versus 4E? Can someone who does understand elaborate a
bit on this particular mechanism? Not questioning you are both
correct - just that I don't understand why. Is it just that every
single Roman legion unit needs a _dedicated_ backup, so to make 2/3-
1/3 (for sake of frontage) you need to have the back unit half the
size?

I can be kind of "in denial" too. Maybe that is what is happening
here.

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, JonCleaves@a... wrote:
> Frank gives some great advice here on this list - owning it and
being part of
> the IW playtest, I agree with it all, for what that is worth.

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 3/29/2004 00:38:50 Central Standard Time,
jjmurphy@... writes:
Is the flex that big a
difference 2E versus 4E? Can someone who does understand elaborate a
bit on this particular mechanism? Not questioning you are both
correct - just that I don't understand why. Is it just that every
single Roman legion unit needs a _dedicated_ backup, so to make 2/3-
1/3 (for sake of frontage) you need to have the back unit half the
size?
First off, let's not mix apples and oranges. If you have 4E units that are
historically organized and painted that way, then there is absolutely nothing
wrong with playing them that way.

Frank and I are both 'efficiency types'. We know that all you need to do
when the second unit replaces the first is generate the casualties that 6 figs
of
charging HTW cause - so the second unit does not need to be a full 122 point
4E cohort to accomplish that task.
Also, you don't need a dedicated 2E unit for every 4E unit - you need just a
few 2E units (maybe even as few as 2) to be in the second line to move behind
those one or two 4E units that need the additonal 2d bound punch. It should
not be so that you need them all across the battleline...

Jon


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[scott holder]

> If anyone
> knows where to to get the 25mm Falcon Auxilia foot that is apparently
> out of business now,

Hello,
Is www.falconminiatures.net any use?

>Steve: Thank you! I didn't realize Falcon was still in bidness. As FHE
ponders what army to take against the On Military Matters boys for our 2nd
annual Grudge Match this summer at Hcon, the issue of Falcon came up in my mind.
We're either gonna run Bosporan or E Germans against the OMM-led legionaries of
the Early Imperial period, all in 25mm. My genero-Gaul/Galatian/German army in
25mm is all Falcon so I was hoping to find some of their figs to flesh out my
army (bump it up to 2500 points, yikes) in case we go that route.

>Again, thanks for the link. This really helps.

scott

Testudo question...(am I recalling it right)

A 2x2 Legion in testudo reverts to a 1x4 column when it comes out of testudo
(i.e. to charge or receive a charge)?

R

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 3/29/2004 10:46:39 AM Eastern Standard Time,
rwalker@... writes:

> Testudo question...(am I recalling it right)
>
> A 2x2 Legion in testudo reverts to a 1x4 column when it
> comes out of testudo
> (i.e. to charge or receive a charge)?
>
> R>>

True. 6.43

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 3/29/2004 10:46:39 AM Eastern Standard Time,
rwalker@... writes:

> Testudo question...(am I recalling it right)
>
> A 2x2 Legion in testudo reverts to a 1x4 column when it
> comes out of testudo
> (i.e. to charge or receive a charge)?
>
> R>>

True. 6.43