Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[Ewan McNay]

OK, caveat: I think LTS suck. I'm still in therapy from playing teams
with Chris D, running Pre-feudal Scots, and seeing him take the
compulsory MI LTS guys haring off across the field chasing Todd/Dave's
Khmer instead of hiding them in a large wod somewhere...

...but to your list.

> IIRC under attack orders I have enough LI and stuff to
> keep something moving forward, which in turn allows me a few
> unprompted charges at first opportunity(again hopefully).

Unlikely, I think. Well, sort of. You'll probably have a shot at
pushing the hoplites forward behind LI, but they'll only ever reach
something that wants to be there. They make a great anvil, but you
have no hammer - only a few pinpricks.

> I want this
> army to be able to absorb massive amounts of punishment, not inflict
> it. The thought is that 7 units can rout and still the army will
> have enough left fresh to crush the opponant's now tired victors.

I think you have again sort of met your objective. Except that most
foes will kill off all of your light and mounted troops, and that's
nine units, and your army is going home .

I'm sorry: I am really trying to think of positive things to say here.
Peltasts are good troops, and B class ones are superb, but they'll
have a hard time linking to your close foot especially after your
opponent places a couple of terrain pieces.

Comments in detail:

> CNC +2 RgC HC J @100+16 115
> 2E RgC HC/MC J @ 8/6+10 52
> 2E RgC HC/MC J @ 8/6+10 52
> 2E RgC LC J @6+10 22
> 2E RgC LC J @6+10 22

I appreciate that your available mounted are useless, and at least
these can skirmish, because there's *nothing* they can usefully beat,
really. [and you miscosted your LC, btw - 34 per unit, right?]

> 8E RgA/B HI/MI LTS/sh@
> 1x32 + 3x28+4x20 +10 206

I don't understand this formula, but the answer is right :)

> 8E RgA/B HI/MI LTS/sh@
> 8E RgA/B HI/MI LTS/sh@

This is 618 points of very resistant troops, yes. BUT. Against
pikes, or HTW, or decent elephants, or dismounted knights, or even
maybe irreg foot that gets even a bit lucky, it's going to lose; and
what is it aiming to actually catch and beat? Nothing, really.
Sorry.

> 6E RgC Art +3 crew @ 180+10 190

I don't play artillery, so don't actually know, but suspect that this
is too big a unit to be useful other than as an attempt at mobile
terrain feature.

> 4E RgB LMI LTS/J/sh @ 6 +10 106
> 4E RgB LMI LTS/J/sh @ 6 +10 106
> 4E RgB LMI LTS/J/sh @ 6 +10 106

As I said, these are great troops. Take many more of these, many
fewer of everything else .

Even as current, though, you really only have 18 element frontage of
troops to push with. That's not enough to execute a gameplan of
roling forward slowly and imperviously. You would need to go for much
cheaper and more hoplites, and hope really hard to get roling plains
to fight on.

> 6E IrrC LI S@ 2 +25 49
> 6E IrrC LI B @ 2+25 49
> 6E IrrC LI J/sh @ 3+25 61
> 6E IrrC LI J/sh @ 3+25 61

The JLS, Sh guys are OK but pricey for what you get. The shieldless
missilemen will die instantly against anything, and are probably not
going to be a very effective screen. The more so because your
hoplites can't charge through them.

Have I been negative enough yet?

OK, if I were forced to take a list like this, I would:

* maximise terrain on at least half the table, throw LI in there, and
try to delay all game. This is damn hard while also keeping the other
side of the table as an open plain.
* either improve or forget the cav. Given a desire to push off the
table, you need scouting points to avoid being outscouted, so the LC
are probably going to have to stay, but flank march them or something
- expect you can't because there's no sub to take them.
* add at least one general, because you may well want to prompt three
or more units to charge each bound for a long time
* start at or near the tale midline with big, much cheaper, hoplite
units
* get a lot more peltasts and have a backup plan of winning in the
rough terrain while not losing with the hoplites - and this is in fact
what I would *actually* do as a game-winning plan, which will at least
often force your opponent to come get the hoplites while you use your
LMI to take out his LI/LMI/El/missilemen (or if he has none, totally
dominate rough ground and get lots of flanks etc)

Ewan

Fantastic view into your mind, thank you. I read, comprehend and will absorb
all you've said. I will say first that I pick this army BECAUSE it sucks so so
bad :)

Next, when I say push with the hoplites, I do not mean that I start strolling
forward. I was breif in my last post, but as I indicated, I plan on playing on
my side of the table. The link with the HI for the LMI is that with the HI in
column spaced correctly with LMI in between I can push forward that which is
suitable for the fight. If the enemy is Irreg infantry or mounted, then I shake
out the HI into line and close off any gaps the LMI had then stand to recieve to
get the +/- factors for steady LTS. Anything punches through, the LMI attack it
(hopefully in the flank). Otherwise the LMI start moving towards the flanks to
prevent an end run and link with the LI. The artillery is to shoot up anything
that tried to come around one of the flanks; one tactic I may try to recreate is
my old Syracusan tactic of floating these monsters on a waterway sort of like
civil war monitors. I protect the other flank with LI and mounted. I actually
want the enemy to direct his efforts in
this quarter, as "easy" meat shieldless LI are there for one shot prep, one
shot when they come in, and just make things tired enough so that my hapless
HC/MC can try to get a charge off against a tired disordered target that happens
to be chopping along behind the fleeing peasantry. All the time knowing the LC,
HC, and LI are trying to simply trade off against more expensive units on a 1 to
1 ratio. He kills 32 points, I kill 79 for example. The hoplites in the mean
time are going to stand and take it. the LMI as reserves or to try and exploit
the gap between hoplites and LI/mounted flank. If the enemy is El or MI B or
something similar, then I will shake the hoplites into blocks with 2E facing and
run the LMI up to fight by charging supported by the hoplites with a second
bound punch.

Terrain will of course dictate tactics, but I'm simply working the general
picture. As you said, this army has no hammer, but then the normal army
development is based upon the hammer/anvil approach. My theory here is to make
the hammer tired enough to rout it, while ignoring his anvil. In other words,
I'm working more of a tarbaby approach where everything that hits is eventually
stuck, worn out, then killed. Don't know if it will work, it just seems it
would be fun to try. :)

You are right about the LC, sorry. Wanax

ewanmcnay <ewan.mcnay@...> wrote:
OK, caveat: I think LTS suck. I'm still in therapy from playing teams
with Chris D, running Pre-feudal Scots, and seeing him take the
compulsory MI LTS guys haring off across the field chasing Todd/Dave's
Khmer instead of hiding them in a large wod somewhere...

...but to your list.

> IIRC under attack orders I have enough LI and stuff to
> keep something moving forward, which in turn allows me a few
> unprompted charges at first opportunity(again hopefully).

Unlikely, I think. Well, sort of. You'll probably have a shot at
pushing the hoplites forward behind LI, but they'll only ever reach
something that wants to be there. They make a great anvil, but you
have no hammer - only a few pinpricks.

> I want this
> army to be able to absorb massive amounts of punishment, not inflict
> it. The thought is that 7 units can rout and still the army will
> have enough left fresh to crush the opponant's now tired victors.

I think you have again sort of met your objective. Except that most
foes will kill off all of your light and mounted troops, and that's
nine units, and your army is going home .

I'm sorry: I am really trying to think of positive things to say here.
Peltasts are good troops, and B class ones are superb, but they'll
have a hard time linking to your close foot especially after your
opponent places a couple of terrain pieces.

Comments in detail:

> CNC +2 RgC HC J @100+16 115
> 2E RgC HC/MC J @ 8/6+10 52
> 2E RgC HC/MC J @ 8/6+10 52
> 2E RgC LC J @6+10 22
> 2E RgC LC J @6+10 22

I appreciate that your available mounted are useless, and at least
these can skirmish, because there's *nothing* they can usefully beat,
really. [and you miscosted your LC, btw - 34 per unit, right?]

> 8E RgA/B HI/MI LTS/sh@
> 1x32 + 3x28+4x20 +10 206

I don't understand this formula, but the answer is right :)

> 8E RgA/B HI/MI LTS/sh@
> 8E RgA/B HI/MI LTS/sh@

This is 618 points of very resistant troops, yes. BUT. Against
pikes, or HTW, or decent elephants, or dismounted knights, or even
maybe irreg foot that gets even a bit lucky, it's going to lose; and
what is it aiming to actually catch and beat? Nothing, really.
Sorry.

> 6E RgC Art +3 crew @ 180+10 190

I don't play artillery, so don't actually know, but suspect that this
is too big a unit to be useful other than as an attempt at mobile
terrain feature.

> 4E RgB LMI LTS/J/sh @ 6 +10 106
> 4E RgB LMI LTS/J/sh @ 6 +10 106
> 4E RgB LMI LTS/J/sh @ 6 +10 106

As I said, these are great troops. Take many more of these, many
fewer of everything else .

Even as current, though, you really only have 18 element frontage of
troops to push with. That's not enough to execute a gameplan of
roling forward slowly and imperviously. You would need to go for much
cheaper and more hoplites, and hope really hard to get roling plains
to fight on.

> 6E IrrC LI S@ 2 +25 49
> 6E IrrC LI B @ 2+25 49
> 6E IrrC LI J/sh @ 3+25 61
> 6E IrrC LI J/sh @ 3+25 61

The JLS, Sh guys are OK but pricey for what you get. The shieldless
missilemen will die instantly against anything, and are probably not
going to be a very effective screen. The more so because your
hoplites can't charge through them.

Have I been negative enough yet?

OK, if I were forced to take a list like this, I would:

* maximise terrain on at least half the table, throw LI in there, and
try to delay all game. This is damn hard while also keeping the other
side of the table as an open plain.
* either improve or forget the cav. Given a desire to push off the
table, you need scouting points to avoid being outscouted, so the LC
are probably going to have to stay, but flank march them or something
- expect you can't because there's no sub to take them.
* add at least one general, because you may well want to prompt three
or more units to charge each bound for a long time
* start at or near the tale midline with big, much cheaper, hoplite
units
* get a lot more peltasts and have a backup plan of winning in the
rough terrain while not losing with the hoplites - and this is in fact
what I would *actually* do as a game-winning plan, which will at least
often force your opponent to come get the hoplites while you use your
LMI to take out his LI/LMI/El/missilemen (or if he has none, totally
dominate rough ground and get lots of flanks etc)

Ewan




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Lord of the Meadehall of men! Aknowledged professional sack lounger. Creator
of semi-lifeforms in their millions. The good looking twin, though sinister in
thought and deed. He who would produce but for 7 years of inactivity punctuated
by frenzied finger touching. Smooth.

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[joncleaves]

In a message dated 7/8/2003 3:46:53 PM Eastern Standard Time,
spocksleftball@... writes:

> The artillery is to shoot up anything that tried to come around one of the
flanks; one tactic I may try to recreate is my old Syracusan tactic of floating
these monsters on a
> waterway sort of like civil war monitors.>>

That is not possible in Warrior. Just so you know...

Oops! Some residual 7th, sorry.
Wanax

JonCleaves@... wrote:
In a message dated 7/8/2003 3:46:53 PM Eastern Standard Time,
spocksleftball@... writes:

> The artillery is to shoot up anything that tried to come around one of the
flanks; one tactic I may try to recreate is my old Syracusan tactic of floating
these monsters on a
> waterway sort of like civil war monitors.>>

That is not possible in Warrior. Just so you know...

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Lord of the Meadehall of men! Aknowledged professional sack lounger. Creator
of semi-lifeforms in their millions. The good looking twin, though sinister in
thought and deed. He who would produce but for 7 years of inactivity punctuated
by frenzied finger touching. Smooth.

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Well after some due consideration last evening, I have been forced to conceed
that attempting to win with hoplites would require consistent up two rolls in an
open tournament environment :)

I will now turn my attention to early Byzantines :)

Wanax


Lord of the Meadehall of men! Aknowledged professional sack lounger. Creator
of semi-lifeforms in their millions. The good looking twin, though sinister in
thought and deed. He who would produce but for 7 years of inactivity punctuated
by frenzied finger touching. Smooth.

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[Kelly Wilkinson]

Boyd,
Did you check out the Saitic Egyptians as I had earlier suggested? Please
look the list over before giving up on the Hoplites. It is quite a good combined
arms army.

Kelly

spocksleftball@... wrote:

Well after some due consideration last evening, I have been forced to conceed
that attempting to win with hoplites would require consistent up two rolls in an
open tournament environment :)

I will now turn my attention to early Byzantines :)

Wanax


Lord of the Meadehall of men! Aknowledged professional sack lounger. Creator
of semi-lifeforms in their millions. The good looking twin, though sinister in
thought and deed. He who would produce but for 7 years of inactivity punctuated
by frenzied finger touching. Smooth.

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I haven't actually given up yet, but I am not certain of how I will proceed at
this point. I did look at the S Egyp list, and it looks good. What I am trying
to do, however, is find a way to win with a total crap army :)

Wanax

kelly wilkinson <jwilkinson62@...> wrote:
Boyd,
Did you check out the Saitic Egyptians as I had earlier suggested? Please
look the list over before giving up on the Hoplites. It is quite a good combined
arms army.

Kelly

spocksleftball@... wrote:

Well after some due consideration last evening, I have been forced to conceed
that attempting to win with hoplites would require consistent up two rolls in an
open tournament environment :)

I will now turn my attention to early Byzantines :)

Wanax


Lord of the Meadehall of men! Aknowledged professional sack lounger. Creator
of semi-lifeforms in their millions. The good looking twin, though sinister in
thought and deed. He who would produce but for 7 years of inactivity punctuated
by frenzied finger touching. Smooth.

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Lord of the Meadehall of men! Aknowledged professional sack lounger. Creator
of semi-lifeforms in their millions. The good looking twin, though sinister in
thought and deed. He who would produce but for 7 years of inactivity punctuated
by frenzied finger touching. Smooth.

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