Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 4/18/2004 22:08:05 Central Daylight Time,
redcoat24@... writes:
Hi everyone,
I'm a newbie looking for some advice. I've chosen the Han Dynasty for my army
and I'm having some good fun with it. I've yet to find a good use for my HCh
though, except as body guard for the CinC. Picking through the list from the
E-Group, I can see that I can take detatchments for them. The only thing I can
see worth taking is the Expert Marksmen as LHI, only because they are the
only regular troops I have that use JLS. Each HCh would get a rear rank of "Reg
B" LHI, JLS, CB. Is it worth it or should I sink my points somewhere else?
Going through the combat charts, I find that I still lose to 2 ranks of LTS
when charging.
I guess the broader question is what exactly are the chariots good for?
I don't get personal email at work so I can't respond back untill tomorrow
evening.
Thanks
Allan>>

As a long time Han player, Allan, I can tell you the following:

Out of period and in a competition, chariots are a challenge to use in
numbers. One or two units are useful because they cause unease and because they
are
better againts loose order archer units than SHK (they are the same as
EHC/EHK, but 2E of chariots is 10 figures equivalent for CPF, vice 6 for 2E of
those
troops).
Their problems with terrain, the 120p move and the fact that lancers kill
them makes them hard to use in numbers - they are a 'closer' troop type, best
used to kill off something weakened by other troops in the list and not being
exposed in the initial charge to the other player's shock troops.

I have taken them with LHI detachments, but that is a lot of points wrapped
up in one unit - you need to close the table down and probably stick to using
them in theme events against historical opponents.

As a part owner of FHE and an amateur Han historian, I will tell you that the
new list we have just about completed is far superior in both history and
competitiveness to the NASAMW list in use now. Oriental Warrior is scheduled
for
a fall release. You'll have some options for using your chariots that you do
not have now, but the numbers fall off dramatically as you progress through
the dynasty. :)

Jon


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi everyone,
I'm a newbie looking for some advice. I've chosen the Han Dynasty for my army
and I'm having some good fun with it. I've yet to find a good use for my HCh
though, except as body guard for the CinC. Picking through the list from the
E-Group, I can see that I can take detatchments for them. The only thing I can
see worth taking is the Expert Marksmen as LHI, only because they are the only
regular troops I have that use JLS. Each HCh would get a rear rank of "Reg B"
LHI, JLS, CB. Is it worth it or should I sink my points somewhere else?
Going through the combat charts, I find that I still lose to 2 ranks of LTS when
charging.
I guess the broader question is what exactly are the chariots good for?
I don't get personal email at work so I can't respond back untill tomorrow
evening.
Thanks
Allan


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 4/19/2004 07:08:53 Central Daylight Time,
redcoat24@... writes:
About the LCh, A good friend plays mycenean Greek and if you have *Lots* of
them they are great. The trouble is we dont get Lots of them, we get 4. From
what I've seen the thing the do with the LCh is skirmish in columns of 3 and
focus 2 columns at a single point, that can devistate certain things. we dont
get
enough LCh to pull that off though.
Allan
Still trying to figure out the HCh ;-(
Allan, have patience - the number and amount of horses available to the LCh,
particularly in the early period, is about to change...

Jon


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[John Garlic]

Hella Allan,

I am curious about your question as well. As a long time Han person, but short
time Warrior, I am still trying to figure them out. I recently did a little
experimenting at the St. Valentine's Day Massacree. I did determine that I
don't like the infantry detachment since must move with infantry priority vs
mounted if joined up. I like lotsa chariots so tend to go for about eight or
so. IIRC when I ran numbers head-to-head vs knights, it came out even, not
counting someone being impetuos or rolling up, by the time you include support
shooting and minus for LTS. Unfortunately, lancer types can charge from 160 and
you are only at 120 which can present a challenge. I usually have them in 2E
units but am investigating larger possibilities. Intrigues by LCh as well, but
their utilization may be even more limited. I am also curious about certain
Chi'hsiun units. Do you go with shieldless 2HCW or shielded JLS. I have been
dabbling with some units that are front rank IRR A shieldless 2HCW, 2nd rank
shield IRR D JLR, and 3rd rank IRR E IPW (just for giggles). I am looking at
other options for them since never really tried the early convict option which
really got rebellion into empire going.

John Garlic

> Hi everyone,
> I'm a newbie looking for some advice. I've chosen the Han Dynasty for my army
and I'm having some good fun with it. I've yet to find a good use for my HCh
though, except as body guard for the CinC. Picking through the list from the
E-Group, I can see that I can take detatchments for them. The only thing I can
see worth taking is the Expert Marksmen as LHI, only because they are the only
regular troops I have that use JLS. Each HCh would get a rear rank of "Reg B"
LHI, JLS, CB. Is it worth it or should I sink my points somewhere else?
> Going through the combat charts, I find that I still lose to 2 ranks of LTS
when charging.
> I guess the broader question is what exactly are the chariots good for?
> I don't get personal email at work so I can't respond back
> untill tomorrow evening.
> Thanks
> Allan

About the LCh, A good friend plays mycenean Greek and if you have *Lots* of them
they are great. The trouble is we dont get Lots of them, we get 4. From what
I've seen the thing the do with the LCh is skirmish in columns of 3 and focus 2
columns at a single point, that can devistate certain things. we dont get enough
LCh to pull that off though.
Allan
Still trying to figure out the HCh ;-(
----- Original Message -----
From: jmgarlic@...
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, April 19, 2004 6:41 AM
Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] Han Chariots


Hella Allan,

I am curious about your question as well. As a long time Han person, but
short time Warrior, I am still trying to figure them out. I recently did a
little experimenting at the St. Valentine's Day Massacree. I did determine that
I don't like the infantry detachment since must move with infantry priority vs
mounted if joined up. I like lotsa chariots so tend to go for about eight or
so. IIRC when I ran numbers head-to-head vs knights, it came out even, not
counting someone being impetuos or rolling up, by the time you include support
shooting and minus for LTS. Unfortunately, lancer types can charge from 160 and
you are only at 120 which can present a challenge. I usually have them in 2E
units but am investigating larger possibilities. Intrigues by LCh as well, but
their utilization may be even more limited. I am also curious about certain
Chi'hsiun units. Do you go with shieldless 2HCW or shielded JLS. I have been
dabbling with some units that a re front rank IRR A shieldless 2HCW, 2nd rank
shield IRR D JLR, and 3rd rank IRR E IPW (just for giggles). I am looking at
other options for them since never really tried the early convict option which
really got rebellion into empire going.

John Garlic

> Hi everyone,
> I'm a newbie looking for some advice. I've chosen the Han Dynasty for my
army and I'm having some good fun with it. I've yet to find a good use for my
HCh though, except as body guard for the CinC. Picking through the list from
the E-Group, I can see that I can take detatchments for them. The only thing I
can see worth taking is the Expert Marksmen as LHI, only because they are the
only regular troops I have that use JLS. Each HCh would get a rear rank of "Reg
B" LHI, JLS, CB. &nbs p; Is it worth it or should I sink my points somewhere
else?
> Going through the combat charts, I find that I still lose to 2 ranks of LTS
when charging.
> I guess the broader question is what exactly are the chariots good for?
> I don't get personal email at work so I can't respond back
> untill tomorrow evening.
> Thanks
> Allan


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[John Garlic]

Alan,

I have some ideas percolating, but nothing definitive yet. I still have
faith! Hope to do a test run of the Han Panzer Division in June. Still got to
paint a couple new support elements. Last time they saw light, some rather
unsavory flaming bacon showed up.

I always play armies I like, damn the odds Han were the first ancients
army I was ever exposed to (Steve Herndon), so I have had a soft spot for them.
Other than that Russians and Germanic types. I don't have the finesse some
people do with the tiny units, so trying to find another way more suited to my
personality with the Han. After talking to Kelly Wilkinson in S.A. in
February, I am looking at working them together in some way with LCh. LCh came
in
the post this week, so gotta slap some paint before I can slap leather!

I'll let you know how experiments work once fully formulated.

John Garlic

> Hi there John, the thing about Heavy chariots is this as far as I can see;
> 1.. You are too slow to catch anything you can beat
> 2.. The firepower available per element of front is extremely low for the 3
> or 4 fatigue points you spend to get it
> 3.. your own troop density is only 5 per element frontage, that's lower
> that most opponents you end up fighting
> 4.. They can't skirmish
> 5.. Poor mobility
> Here is what's good as far as I can see;
> 1.. Always Shielded, even when shooting
> 2.. Tougher than most mounted types
> You mentioned the posibility of having larger numbers of them perhaps as a 4
> wide element fighting line? I've toyed with that too but ruled it out,
> mainly because if I were the enemy that's exactly where I'd attack your line.
It
> would almost certainly break to a concentrated charge from lances and then
> there would be a big hole in the line.
>
> The only time I did anything use full with them, was a battle where their
> presence on a flank discouraged an infantry unit from wheeling to deal with a
> grave threat to a unit on their imeadiate right. So I effectively pinned a
> unit, maybe that's the best it gets.
>
> Let me know what you think. I don't mean to sound pessimistic about them,
> it's just easier to find out what the're bad at than what the're good at.
> That's also why I was looking at detachments, hoping to gain an edge. My idea
> with the deetatchment of marksmen was to perhaps create a firebase, which
could
> then exchange ranks before charging, gaining a rear rank of javelins. It just
> seems like such a tricky and risky manuever with dubious benefits.
>
> Of course, Chariots were mostly falling out of favour by the time the Han
> came around so there is probably a good reason.
>
> Allan Lougheed
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi there John, the thing about Heavy chariots is this as far as I can see;
1.. You are too slow to catch anything you can beat
2.. The firepower available per element of front is extremely low for the 3 or
4 fatigue points you spend to get it
3.. your own troop density is only 5 per element frontage, that's lower that
most opponents you end up fighting
4.. They can't skirmish
5.. Poor mobility
Here is what's good as far as I can see;
1.. Always Shielded, even when shooting
2.. Tougher than most mounted types
You mentioned the posibility of having larger numbers of them perhaps as a 4
wide element fighting line? I've toyed with that too but ruled it out, mainly
because if I were the enemy that's exactly where I'd attack your line. It would
almost certainly break to a concentrated charge from lances and then there would
be a big hole in the line.

The only time I did anything use full with them, was a battle where their
presence on a flank discouraged an infantry unit from wheeling to deal with a
grave threat to a unit on their imeadiate right. So I effectively pinned a
unit, maybe that's the best it gets.

Let me know what you think. I don't mean to sound pessimistic about them, it's
just easier to find out what the're bad at than what the're good at. That's also
why I was looking at detachments, hoping to gain an edge. My idea with the
deetatchment of marksmen was to perhaps create a firebase, which could then
exchange ranks before charging, gaining a rear rank of javelins. It just seems
like such a tricky and risky manuever with dubious benefits.

Of course, Chariots were mostly falling out of favour by the time the Han came
around so there is probably a good reason.

Allan Lougheed
----- Original Message -----
From: jmgarlic@...
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, April 19, 2004 6:41 AM
Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] Han Chariots



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Rob Turnball]

Gentlemen
I love the Han army, but seldom play it anymore because of issues like not
being able to get within an elements width of any rough feature in a charge (ie.
you cannot charge a unit with any of its base in the terrain) and the fact
that I cannot prompt into a wood, unless I dismount the unit and then do it,
which removes the generals ability to influence critical areas of the
battlefield.
As fighting troops I love chariots, you get units that if correctly used are
very competative, even though not overwhelming.
All the best
Robert


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 4/20/2004 20:50:19 Central Daylight Time,
grimmetttim@... writes:
Lately I've taken the minimum HCh and gone with the LCh (2x2). They can
charge anything, break-off if the charge doesn't work, and evade if things get
stupid.

Operating in between foot units, they force LMI/LHI that would otherwise
skirmish to make a difficult decision and the unease they cause is well worth 54
points.
Just wait for the four-horse version... ;)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

So how do you use them correctly?
Allan
----- Original Message -----
From: lilroblis@...
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 5:47 PM
Subject: [WarriorRules] Han Chariots


Gentlemen
I love the Han army, but seldom play it anymore because of issues like not
being able to get within an elements width of any rough feature in a charge
(ie.
you cannot charge a unit with any of its base in the terrain) and the fact
that I cannot prompt into a wood, unless I dismount the unit and then do it,
which removes the generals ability to influence critical areas of the
battlefield.
As fighting troops I love chariots, you get units that if correctly used are
very competative, even though not overwhelming.
All the best
Robert


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Tim Grimmett]

Regarding Han chariots.

I've gone HCh heavy (with Subgeneral to keep impetous), but find that reliance
on chariots as a strike force changes the way I played from a shooting/skirmish
army to a close and kill army. It didn't work out to my satisfaction. Besides
those otherwise worthless HC/L can play the finisher role.

Lately I've taken the minimum HCh and gone with the LCh (2x2). They can charge
anything, break-off if the charge doesn't work, and evade if things get stupid.

Operating in between foot units, they force LMI/LHI that would otherwise
skirmish to make a difficult decision and the unease they cause is well worth 54
points.

Tim









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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tim, what kind of Han force do you use in the shooty/skirmishing style, do
you take many Hsiung-nu? or is it all done with infantry?

I like what you said about the LCh.
Thanks
Allan

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Grimmett" <grimmetttim@...>
To: <WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 9:47 PM
Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] Han Chariots




Regarding Han chariots.

I've gone HCh heavy (with Subgeneral to keep impetous), but find that
reliance on chariots as a strike force changes the way I played from a
shooting/skirmish army to a close and kill army. It didn't work out to my
satisfaction. Besides those otherwise worthless HC/L can play the finisher
role.

Lately I've taken the minimum HCh and gone with the LCh (2x2). They can
charge anything, break-off if the charge doesn't work, and evade if things
get stupid.

Operating in between foot units, they force LMI/LHI that would otherwise
skirmish to make a difficult decision and the unease they cause is well
worth 54 points.

Tim









---------------------------------
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Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25¢

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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[John Garlic]

Although I like my Russ and Greeks, been waiting a long time on new Han list.
Any teasers besides wait for the chariots? Just curious how much modifying
gotta do to my Han.

John Garlic

> Lately I've taken the minimum HCh and gone with the LCh (2x2). They can
> charge anything, break-off if the charge doesn't work, and evade if things get
> stupid.
>
> Operating in between foot units, they force LMI/LHI that would otherwise
> skirmish to make a difficult decision and the unease they
> cause is well worth 54
> points.
> Just wait for the four-horse version... ;)

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 4/20/2004 10:34:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jmgarlic writes:

> Although I like my Russ and Greeks, been waiting a long time on new Han list.
Any teasers besides wait for the
> chariots? >>

They start as 4h LCh and can be made 4h HCh. This is because there is no
evidence of 2h chariots, but we have conflicting evidence of use for a scouting
role vice shock role. The list is split in three time periods and there are
less and less of them as the period progress because they went out of favor over
time.

<< Just curious how much modifying gotta do to my Han.>>

Shouldn't have to do much if you have been using the NASAMW list.

While where on the subject of the list, can I make a couple of observations?

I think that somehow the distinction between the Mounted Ko and Mounted Chi
should be eliminated. It just seems to be redundant. Theoretically they are both
armed with Dagger axe, but one uses it as a Lance and the other doesn't. If it
is just a dagger axe used as a lance, then why can't the Ko use it as a lance as
well? Being "other cavalry" that gives the enemy a -1 tactical factor seems
unjustifiable, when you could charge with a lance instead. But I'm a newbie so
perhaps I'm wrong, I've always understood that you can't actually use a 2HCT on
horse back. (even though this is exactly what you do when practicing Equestrian
Tai-Chi)

I see a few of options
1.. Eliminate Mounted Ko entirely
2.. Allow Mounted Ko to charge as if armed with lance
3.. Give mounted Chi the -1 to the enemy tac factor (perhaps only on the 2nd
round of contact)
4.. Make the Ko cheaper (probably not possible), as there seems little point
in paying extra points to be armed as "Other Cavalry" twice.
For the rest of the list, I think there way too many Elites, and not enough core
troops. It was an army of conscripts, how elite can they be?The Han list gets
good solid troops, but far too few of any one type, and it ends up looking like
a patch quilt, with a little of this and a little of that. I would give just
about anything for more Chi Infantry, I'd even take more Shu. Nothing wrong with
Shu.

Respectfully
Allan

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]