Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

Does anyone have any thoughts/comments/tips/tactica or such on the
proper use of handgunner units? Many of the Late Medieval lists in
Feudal Warrior have handgunners in them, in more than a few I believe
they are even mandatory. But handguns only have a range of 80 paces,
(so they will frequently be outranged by other missile fire) and are
usually shieldless. What would be the proper way to position these
elements in order to support your core troops (pikemen or spearmen
usually)? Should they be in gaps between the core troops and behind
the light infantry screen? Should they be positioned slightly ahead
of the main battle line - or slightly behind it? Would they be better
guarding the flanks? Etc.

I'm just curious what the crew of experts here would advise if they
had them in their list.

Peter

[Ewan McNay]

I used to use a ton of LI HG (before new lists) in my german
Imperialists. Mostly because they were the only light troops
available .

Against other light troops they're useless. The only virtue is that
they're regular, numerous, and cheap, so can gang up/avoid when
needed. Against opposing line units they're great, as they shoot very
well (essentially always in skirmish, as they only fire one rank) and
then run away.

I have tried loose order HG a couple of times, concluding that it's
not worthwhile. Again, though, the place to use them is against
opposing close foot (and possibly small mounted units, but you just
die so easily..). This is what your query seems to be on, given the
comment about being behind LI screen. Sean Scott is probably the
person to ask, as he used to run them a lot in his Condotta (but
eventually gave up).

Not very helpful, I'm afraid.

Peter Celella wrote:

> Does anyone have any thoughts/comments/tips/tactica or such on the
> proper use of handgunner units? Many of the Late Medieval lists in
> Feudal Warrior have handgunners in them, in more than a few I believe
> they are even mandatory. But handguns only have a range of 80 paces,
> (so they will frequently be outranged by other missile fire) and are
> usually shieldless. What would be the proper way to position these
> elements in order to support your core troops (pikemen or spearmen
> usually)? Should they be in gaps between the core troops and behind
> the light infantry screen? Should they be positioned slightly ahead
> of the main battle line - or slightly behind it? Would they be better
> guarding the flanks? Etc.
>
> I'm just curious what the crew of experts here would advise if they
> had them in their list.
>
> Peter
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

>
> Against other light troops they're useless. The only virtue is
that
> they're regular, numerous, and cheap, so can gang up/avoid when
> needed. Against opposing line units they're great, as they shoot
very
> well (essentially always in skirmish, as they only fire one rank)
and
> then run away.
>
> I have tried loose order HG a couple of times, concluding that it's
> not worthwhile. Again, though, the place to use them is against
> opposing close foot (and possibly small mounted units, but you just
> die so easily..). This is what your query seems to be on, given
the
> comment about being behind LI screen. Sean Scott is probably the
> person to ask, as he used to run them a lot in his Condotta (but
> eventually gave up).
>
> Not very helpful, I'm afraid.

Actually Ewan, it is helpful. I'm putting my Swiss list together, and
I was trying to figure out how to use the HG. I have plenty of
crossbows to use as LI, but at least 4 elements, I think, of HG are
required, and up to 8 can be used. I was thinking to use 2 4E units
between my pike blocks and to advance in step with them, behind the
LI screen. It seems to me that you agree with this approach - am I
right?

Unfortunately with the Swiss there is only limited cavalry to use on
the flanks, so I was thinking if that might be a better place for the
HG - but it seems not.

[Todd Schneider]

On paper, at least to me, the best idea for using the
Swiss Handgunners would be to buy them in 2 4E units
(assuming your playing Late Period) and place them
behind a wall in the forward sectors or your own
deployment Zone. As Walls are both cover and an
obstacle, they aren't going to be easily displaced,
and the walls could be useful in funneling your
opponents into where you want them to go.

The big problem with that is you never know if your
going to be able to place a wall where you want to,
and whether or not the wall works into your overall
plan.

Todd

Sorry - don't have my rulebook with me. Are walls a normal terrain
pick, or do you mean as a list choice? I am working with Late Period,
and it is only the Early Period that can choose wall elements.

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, Todd Schneider <thresh1642@s...>
wrote:
> On paper, at least to me, the best idea for using the
> Swiss Handgunners would be to buy them in 2 4E units
> (assuming your playing Late Period) and place them
> behind a wall in the forward sectors or your own
> deployment Zone. As Walls are both cover and an
> obstacle, they aren't going to be easily displaced,
> and the walls could be useful in funneling your
> opponents into where you want them to go.
>
> The big problem with that is you never know if your
> going to be able to place a wall where you want to,
> and whether or not the wall works into your overall
> plan.
>
> Todd

[Todd Schneider]

Thats my mistake, I read the List wrong...Dang
it...Middle Period gets Stone Walls as well...but you
only get 6E of Handgunners to buy, enough for one
walls worth.

Todd

--- Peter Celella <pcelella@...> wrote:

---------------------------------
Sorry - don't have my rulebook with me. Are walls a
normal terrain
pick, or do you mean as a list choice? I am working
with Late Period,
and it is only the Early Period that can choose wall
elements.

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, Todd Schneider
<thresh1642@s...>
wrote:
> On paper, at least to me, the best idea for using
the
> Swiss Handgunners would be to buy them in 2 4E units
> (assuming your playing Late Period) and place them
> behind a wall in the forward sectors or your own
> deployment Zone. As Walls are both cover and an
> obstacle, they aren't going to be easily displaced,
> and the walls could be useful in funneling your
> opponents into where you want them to go.
>
> The big problem with that is you never know if your
> going to be able to place a wall where you want to,
> and whether or not the wall works into your overall
> plan.
>
> Todd


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I use to run Later Imperialists a lot (late period) and normally ran the HG as
LI (needed something to screen my shieldless pikemen and SHK), but there was one
great game where I ran them as LHI and they shot to ribbons (aided by the SHK
HG) several 16 figure Selucid pike blocks and 2 model elephant
units..........several celebratory Spatens were drank afterwards......... :)

Peter Celella <pcelella@...> wrote:>
> Against other light troops they're useless. The only virtue is
that
> they're regular, numerous, and cheap, so can gang up/avoid when
> needed. Against opposing line units they're great, as they shoot
very
> well (essentially always in skirmish, as they only fire one rank)
and
> then run away.
>
> I have tried loose order HG a couple of times, concluding that it's
> not worthwhile. Again, though, the place to use them is against
> opposing close foot (and possibly small mounted units, but you just
> die so easily..). This is what your query seems to be on, given
the
> comment about being behind LI screen. Sean Scott is probably the
> person to ask, as he used to run them a lot in his Condotta (but
> eventually gave up).
>
> Not very helpful, I'm afraid.

Actually Ewan, it is helpful. I'm putting my Swiss list together, and
I was trying to figure out how to use the HG. I have plenty of
crossbows to use as LI, but at least 4 elements, I think, of HG are
required, and up to 8 can be used. I was thinking to use 2 4E units
between my pike blocks and to advance in step with them, behind the
LI screen. It seems to me that you agree with this approach - am I
right?

Unfortunately with the Swiss there is only limited cavalry to use on
the flanks, so I was thinking if that might be a better place for the
HG - but it seems not.


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In my Swiss Army, I was planning on running them as LMI instead of
LI - figured if I had a max of 8 elements, I might as well get as
much firepower as possible out of them. I didn't want to do LHI,
mainly for historical reasons (in accounts of the Swiss battles, they
just don't seem to be equiped with significant armor). But your
results sound great. Do you remember how you set up the HG's and how
you manuevered them?

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, Richard Gagliasso <spor17@y...>
wrote:
> I use to run Later Imperialists a lot (late period) and normally
ran the HG as LI (needed something to screen my shieldless pikemen
and SHK), but there was one great game where I ran them as LHI and
they shot to ribbons (aided by the SHK HG) several 16 figure Selucid
pike blocks and 2 model elephant units..........several celebratory
Spatens were drank afterwards.........
>

It was a long time ago and the game was played using WRG 7th ed rules and army
lists. I beleive I ran 2 32 fig pike (MI with as many upgraded to LHI as
possible) blocks one of which had a 8 fig detachment of LHI HG and then several
16 fig units of LHI HG which I deployed to the flanks and in between the pike
blocks. I also took as much arty as possible and 1 6 fig unit of SHK HG and 1 6
fig unit of HC CB to add additional firepower. I had actually tried to design
the list to maximize the firepower in an attempt to be successful with
firepower. My thought process was since gunpower weapons eventully replaced
bows, crossbows, etc then even in our period we should be able to utilize them
successfully.

I think in the Warrior list it would be interesting to do a list along these
lines since we now also have forward deployed fortifications and war wagons
available.

Peter Celella <pcelella@...> wrote:
In my Swiss Army, I was planning on running them as LMI instead of
LI - figured if I had a max of 8 elements, I might as well get as
much firepower as possible out of them. I didn't want to do LHI,
mainly for historical reasons (in accounts of the Swiss battles, they
just don't seem to be equiped with significant armor). But your
results sound great. Do you remember how you set up the HG's and how
you manuevered them?

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, Richard Gagliasso <spor17@y...>
wrote:
> I use to run Later Imperialists a lot (late period) and normally
ran the HG as LI (needed something to screen my shieldless pikemen
and SHK), but there was one great game where I ran them as LHI and
they shot to ribbons (aided by the SHK HG) several 16 figure Selucid
pike blocks and 2 model elephant units..........several celebratory
Spatens were drank afterwards.........
>



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sounds interesting, and you guys have convinced me to try out the HG
as LHI. What was that old army you were using? And the SHK HG - what
is that unit, and is it still available in any new list?

It would be nice to have my LHI HG's as a detachment to my pike
block, but if I read the Swiss list correctly, this isn't legal. It
says:

"Up to 4 Reg command factors at 5 pts to give Swiss Infantry a
detachment of LI".

Since LHI is not LI, then this wouldn't be allowed - correct?

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, Richard Gagliasso <spor17@y...>
wrote:
> It was a long time ago and the game was played using WRG 7th ed
rules and army lists. I beleive I ran 2 32 fig pike (MI with as many
upgraded to LHI as possible) blocks one of which had a 8 fig
detachment of LHI HG and then several 16 fig units of LHI HG which I
deployed to the flanks and in between the pike blocks. I also took
as much arty as possible and 1 6 fig unit of SHK HG and 1 6 fig unit
of HC CB to add additional firepower. I had actually tried to design
the list to maximize the firepower in an attempt to be successful
with firepower. My thought process was since gunpower weapons
eventully replaced bows, crossbows, etc then even in our period we
should be able to utilize them successfully.
>
> I think in the Warrior list it would be interesting to do a list
along these lines since we now also have forward deployed
fortifications and war wagons available.
>

The "old" army I was using was Later Imperialist out of the "old" WRG 7th (or
maybe it was 6th?) ed rule books. This is basically equal to list #25 Holy
Roman Imperial in the Feudal Warrior army list book. The SHK HG unit went away
in the Warrior list which was too bad as it was a "fun" unit (being something
completely different). As far as I can tell the Swiss detachment you refer to
must be LI (the Imperials also lost their detachments in the Warrior list).

I think using LHI HG can be fun and interesting but if I was playing Swiss I
think I would have to take them as Reg B LI...........

Peter Celella <pcelella@...> wrote:
Sounds interesting, and you guys have convinced me to try out the HG
as LHI. What was that old army you were using? And the SHK HG - what
is that unit, and is it still available in any new list?

It would be nice to have my LHI HG's as a detachment to my pike
block, but if I read the Swiss list correctly, this isn't legal. It
says:

"Up to 4 Reg command factors at 5 pts to give Swiss Infantry a
detachment of LI".

Since LHI is not LI, then this wouldn't be allowed - correct?

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, Richard Gagliasso <spor17@y...>
wrote:
> It was a long time ago and the game was played using WRG 7th ed
rules and army lists. I beleive I ran 2 32 fig pike (MI with as many
upgraded to LHI as possible) blocks one of which had a 8 fig
detachment of LHI HG and then several 16 fig units of LHI HG which I
deployed to the flanks and in between the pike blocks. I also took
as much arty as possible and 1 6 fig unit of SHK HG and 1 6 fig unit
of HC CB to add additional firepower. I had actually tried to design
the list to maximize the firepower in an attempt to be successful
with firepower. My thought process was since gunpower weapons
eventully replaced bows, crossbows, etc then even in our period we
should be able to utilize them successfully.
>
> I think in the Warrior list it would be interesting to do a list
along these lines since we now also have forward deployed
fortifications and war wagons available.
>



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, Richard Gagliasso <spor17@y...>
wrote:
>
> I think using LHI HG can be fun and interesting but if I was
playing Swiss I think I would have to take them as Reg B LI...........
>

Hmmm....Why do you say LI? I already have a bunch of Xbow LI and
didn't think that I would be needing more. If I take the HG as LI,
then I get a maximum of 8Ex2=16 figures. If I take them as LMI or
LHI, then I get 32 figures - I thought the extra firepower would make
more sense.

[Kelly Wilkinson]

Good point Todd!

Todd Schneider <thresh1642@...> wrote:On paper, at least to me, the
best idea for using the
Swiss Handgunners would be to buy them in 2 4E units
(assuming your playing Late Period) and place them
behind a wall in the forward sectors or your own
deployment Zone. As Walls are both cover and an
obstacle, they aren't going to be easily displaced,
and the walls could be useful in funneling your
opponents into where you want them to go.

The big problem with that is you never know if your
going to be able to place a wall where you want to,
and whether or not the wall works into your overall
plan.

Todd



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Peter,

I think the next e-mail in this string did a pretty good job of explaining why I
would take LI instead of LHI. I think the Swiss need to avoid being outscouted
and need to get their pike into hand to hand (while avoiding being outflanked)
in order to win and I think Reg B LI HG can help them do this better than Reg B
LHI HG.

I am inspired by this e-mail string to go home and put together a firepower
oriented 25 mm Holy Roman Empire list to play a few times. I'll let you know
how it looks and plays.

Richard


Peter Celella <pcelella@...> wrote:
--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, Richard Gagliasso <spor17@y...>
wrote:
>
> I think using LHI HG can be fun and interesting but if I was
playing Swiss I think I would have to take them as Reg B LI...........
>

Hmmm....Why do you say LI? I already have a bunch of Xbow LI and
didn't think that I would be needing more. If I take the HG as LI,
then I get a maximum of 8Ex2=16 figures. If I take them as LMI or
LHI, then I get 32 figures - I thought the extra firepower would make
more sense.


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]