Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

I used handgunners (as Ewan noted) with the Condotta for a while. I stopped
using them more because my style of play evolved such that they where too
slow to 'keep' up with the knights and opponents avoided them too much.
Further at 106 points for 1 unit, they were not great counters for other's
cheap missle infantry (read English) and for 6 more points could get a Reg C
knight. Further, I eventually started using the Venetian list due to the
increase in LC instead of the Milanese list which has the THCT/HG LHI.

For the Swiss, I buy them as LI. The reasons being:
1) They can act as human sheilds as 4 figure units (I only took 1 waver-
which I failed in 5 NICT games for shooting) at only 26 points. Being Reg B
they move quickly out of trouble- usually- when the pike block is clear.
They are good for 2 shots before being exhausted.

2) Unlike close order pike, the Swiss blocks can move through their LI
screen in order to set up a charge, another reason for keeping them LI.

3) LMI/LHI are too expensive as Reg B and cause waver tests to boot. They
are hard to get into skrimish (start 240 away, shoot 80, better go first to
make the assumption that the opponent will be in shooting range at the end
of the move and therefore go into skrimish).

4) As LI, the Swiss can get 20 scouting points (8 units 4 fig LI and 2 units
4 fig LC) allowing them to be rarely outscouted. If as LMI/LHI, drop to 16
scouting points and outscouted much of the time (see Franks analysis from
last year).

With the Swiss I buy 3 48 pike blocks and 4 4 figure units of LI HG
which are assigned to them. They never go far from the block. As pointed
out, they make other close order troops or cav think twice before closing,
and in two battles a 4 fig HG unit or XB unit was what allowed my pike
blocks to beat away impetuous knights as they knights now lose on that
frontage instead of breaking even, assuming all even rolls.

I have played with the idea of all HG missle armies, but couldn't really
do it with the old Condotta list, but now you might be able to. The Hut...
and Clark Milanese list allowed you many of the HG which could be double
armed with THCT, slightly more devestaing than English, but I never played
it (and now has been superceded by FH Condotta list). These units need to be
LHI uparmored and Reg C, so again 106 points a piece, too expensive to
compete with cheap missle armies.

The big problem with HG is you can never beat LI or LC and punch them
back by shooting as the factors are bad. Against elephants, you are passible
(6 at 3 if in skrimish) especially if Milanese THCT armed. Further,
opponents will always shooot at you as their shields are meaningless so you
get shot up a lot. Further, unless in skrimish, too expensive for a useless
rank. Going 1 rank deep or 8 figure units they are too vulernable to being
shot up and causing waver tests for the rest of the army.

I am uncertain how the 'new' recall rule for LI in 40 paces of the Reg
LHI changes the equation as this was introduced after I had moved to
Venetian LC/Kn armies. Also, the XB/THCT LHI units controlled more of the
board than HG/THCT.

Final analysis, LI is the best use for HG unless willing to buy 4+ units
of 16 figure, LHI, Reg C guys, (Milanese Condotta and maybe St. Johns or
Hungarian) and then they are still easily frustrated and avoided. They are
better if able to be the front rank of XB or B as with Turks or posibly
still ST. John, although I think the ST. John was done away with (Mark Stone
would know).

Sean

[Frank Gilson]

Sean,

What was your rationale behind putting the Swiss foot into 48 figure
units, and were you fully satisfied with that?

I had considered running Swiss, but using 24 man units (probably 5
of them.)

Was it just vulnerability to shooting?

Frank

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "SEAN SCOTT" <sscott04@m...>
wrote:
> I used handgunners (as Ewan noted) with the Condotta for a while.
I stopped
> using them more because my style of play evolved such that they
where too
> slow to 'keep' up with the knights and opponents avoided them too
much.
> Further at 106 points for 1 unit, they were not great counters for
other's
> cheap missle infantry (read English) and for 6 more points could
get a Reg C
> knight. Further, I eventually started using the Venetian list due
to the
> increase in LC instead of the Milanese list which has the THCT/HG
LHI.
>
> For the Swiss, I buy them as LI. The reasons being:
> 1) They can act as human sheilds as 4 figure units (I only took 1
waver-
> which I failed in 5 NICT games for shooting) at only 26 points.
Being Reg B
> they move quickly out of trouble- usually- when the pike block is
clear.
> They are good for 2 shots before being exhausted.
>
> 2) Unlike close order pike, the Swiss blocks can move through
their LI
> screen in order to set up a charge, another reason for keeping
them LI.
>
> 3) LMI/LHI are too expensive as Reg B and cause waver tests to
boot. They
> are hard to get into skrimish (start 240 away, shoot 80, better go
first to
> make the assumption that the opponent will be in shooting range at
the end
> of the move and therefore go into skrimish).
>
> 4) As LI, the Swiss can get 20 scouting points (8 units 4 fig LI
and 2 units
> 4 fig LC) allowing them to be rarely outscouted. If as LMI/LHI,
drop to 16
> scouting points and outscouted much of the time (see Franks
analysis from
> last year).
>
> With the Swiss I buy 3 48 pike blocks and 4 4 figure units of
LI HG
> which are assigned to them. They never go far from the block. As
pointed
> out, they make other close order troops or cav think twice before
closing,
> and in two battles a 4 fig HG unit or XB unit was what allowed my
pike
> blocks to beat away impetuous knights as they knights now lose on
that
> frontage instead of breaking even, assuming all even rolls.
>
> I have played with the idea of all HG missle armies, but
couldn't really
> do it with the old Condotta list, but now you might be able to.
The Hut...
> and Clark Milanese list allowed you many of the HG which could be
double
> armed with THCT, slightly more devestaing than English, but I
never played
> it (and now has been superceded by FH Condotta list). These units
need to be
> LHI uparmored and Reg C, so again 106 points a piece, too
expensive to
> compete with cheap missle armies.
>
> The big problem with HG is you can never beat LI or LC and
punch them
> back by shooting as the factors are bad. Against elephants, you
are passible
> (6 at 3 if in skrimish) especially if Milanese THCT armed.
Further,
> opponents will always shooot at you as their shields are
meaningless so you
> get shot up a lot. Further, unless in skrimish, too expensive for
a useless
> rank. Going 1 rank deep or 8 figure units they are too vulernable
to being
> shot up and causing waver tests for the rest of the army.
>
> I am uncertain how the 'new' recall rule for LI in 40 paces of
the Reg
> LHI changes the equation as this was introduced after I had moved
to
> Venetian LC/Kn armies. Also, the XB/THCT LHI units controlled more
of the
> board than HG/THCT.
>
> Final analysis, LI is the best use for HG unless willing to buy
4+ units
> of 16 figure, LHI, Reg C guys, (Milanese Condotta and maybe St.
Johns or
> Hungarian) and then they are still easily frustrated and avoided.
They are
> better if able to be the front rank of XB or B as with Turks or
posibly
> still ST. John, although I think the ST. John was done away with
(Mark Stone
> would know).
>
> Sean

[Todd Schneider]

FWIW, theres also a way to Integrate HG into the Later
Ottoman list as well...you end up with a unit thats MI
Front Rank HG, 2nd Rank CB, 3rd rank B. Looks good on
papaer, but would probably be a bit unweildy on the
tabletop considering all the other miniums the Ottoman
has to incorporate.

Todd

--- SEAN SCOTT <sscott04@...> wrote:

---------------------------------
I used handgunners (as Ewan noted) with the Condotta
for a while. I stopped
using them more because my style of play evolved such
that they where too
slow to 'keep' up with the knights and opponents
avoided them too much.
Further at 106 points for 1 unit, they were not great
counters for other's
cheap missle infantry (read English) and for 6 more
points could get a Reg C
knight. Further, I eventually started using the
Venetian list due to the
increase in LC instead of the Milanese list which has
the THCT/HG LHI.

For the Swiss, I buy them as LI. The reasons being:
1) They can act as human sheilds as 4 figure units (I
only took 1 waver-
which I failed in 5 NICT games for shooting) at only
26 points. Being Reg B
they move quickly out of trouble- usually- when the
pike block is clear.
They are good for 2 shots before being exhausted.

2) Unlike close order pike, the Swiss blocks can move
through their LI
screen in order to set up a charge, another reason for
keeping them LI.

3) LMI/LHI are too expensive as Reg B and cause waver
tests to boot. They
are hard to get into skrimish (start 240 away, shoot
80, better go first to
make the assumption that the opponent will be in
shooting range at the end
of the move and therefore go into skrimish).

4) As LI, the Swiss can get 20 scouting points (8
units 4 fig LI and 2 units
4 fig LC) allowing them to be rarely outscouted. If as
LMI/LHI, drop to 16
scouting points and outscouted much of the time (see
Franks analysis from
last year).

With the Swiss I buy 3 48 pike blocks and 4 4
figure units of LI HG
which are assigned to them. They never go far from the
block. As pointed
out, they make other close order troops or cav think
twice before closing,
and in two battles a 4 fig HG unit or XB unit was what
allowed my pike
blocks to beat away impetuous knights as they knights
now lose on that
frontage instead of breaking even, assuming all even
rolls.

I have played with the idea of all HG missle
armies, but couldn't really
do it with the old Condotta list, but now you might be
able to. The Hut...
and Clark Milanese list allowed you many of the HG
which could be double
armed with THCT, slightly more devestaing than
English, but I never played
it (and now has been superceded by FH Condotta list).
These units need to be
LHI uparmored and Reg C, so again 106 points a piece,
too expensive to
compete with cheap missle armies.

The big problem with HG is you can never beat LI or
LC and punch them
back by shooting as the factors are bad. Against
elephants, you are passible
(6 at 3 if in skrimish) especially if Milanese THCT
armed. Further,
opponents will always shooot at you as their shields
are meaningless so you
get shot up a lot. Further, unless in skrimish, too
expensive for a useless
rank. Going 1 rank deep or 8 figure units they are too
vulernable to being
shot up and causing waver tests for the rest of the
army.

I am uncertain how the 'new' recall rule for LI in
40 paces of the Reg
LHI changes the equation as this was introduced after
I had moved to
Venetian LC/Kn armies. Also, the XB/THCT LHI units
controlled more of the
board than HG/THCT.

Final analysis, LI is the best use for HG unless
willing to buy 4+ units
of 16 figure, LHI, Reg C guys, (Milanese Condotta and
maybe St. Johns or
Hungarian) and then they are still easily frustrated
and avoided. They are
better if able to be the front rank of XB or B as with
Turks or posibly
still ST. John, although I think the ST. John was done
away with (Mark Stone
would know).

Sean



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[John Murphy]

Janissaries! Yes, these are very, very good.

Hurchanik uses these alot and I have faced his a couple times in
different scales to boot in the past 2-3 years, as did Mike Kelly
this year who I also played.

Maybe one of them could comment.

To make matters worse they get to do this with front rank HI 2HCT,
Sh as well, and I believe stakes also. Absolutely mobile terrain I
can't imagine anything wanting to go anywhere near that.

Possibly, just possibly, they could be worn down by skirmishing
longbows, but (a) I could never figure out how to put enough
longbows on one of these huge units (counting 20 figs on a 2E front)
to do the job and (b) gee, there is the rest of the army (bunch of
sipahis and other stuff), so skirmishing can become a dicey thing to
do very quickly.

You are right - I suspect you'd better be able to shoot up all the
cavalry before these come to grips with you. Hasn't worked for me
yet though running armies with 100-150 longbowmen.

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, Todd Schneider
<thresh1642@s...> wrote:
> FWIW, theres also a way to Integrate HG into the Later
> Ottoman list as well...you end up with a unit thats MI
> Front Rank HG, 2nd Rank CB, 3rd rank B. Looks good on
> papaer, but would probably be a bit unweildy on the
> tabletop considering all the other miniums the Ottoman
> has to incorporate.

[Todd Schneider]

I think the Unit I put together was
6E REG C 1/3rd LTS, HG, Sh; 1/3rd LTS, CB, Sh; 1/3 B

114 points total. Against Shielded MI (which I figure
to be a common opponent) it shoots 8@4, 8@1 and 4@2,
or 42 casulties a turn on even dice. enough to do 2
CPF, but not 3 to a 16 man unit.

The list I did certainly looked nice (to me), but I
had/have no idea how to properly use it on the
tabletop.

Anyways, another list has caught my eye, I am going
all out on building that.

Todd

--- John <jjmurphy@...> wrote:

---------------------------------
Janissaries! Yes, these are very, very good.

Hurchanik uses these alot and I have faced his a
couple times in
different scales to boot in the past 2-3 years, as did
Mike Kelly
this year who I also played.

Maybe one of them could comment.

To make matters worse they get to do this with front
rank HI 2HCT,
Sh as well, and I believe stakes also. Absolutely
mobile terrain I
can't imagine anything wanting to go anywhere near
that.

Possibly, just possibly, they could be worn down by
skirmishing
longbows, but (a) I could never figure out how to put
enough
longbows on one of these huge units (counting 20 figs
on a 2E front)
to do the job and (b) gee, there is the rest of the
army (bunch of
sipahis and other stuff), so skirmishing can become a
dicey thing to
do very quickly.

You are right - I suspect you'd better be able to
shoot up all the
cavalry before these come to grips with you. Hasn't
worked for me
yet though running armies with 100-150 longbowmen.

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, Todd Schneider
<thresh1642@s...> wrote:
> FWIW, theres also a way to Integrate HG into the
Later
> Ottoman list as well...you end up with a unit thats
MI
> Front Rank HG, 2nd Rank CB, 3rd rank B. Looks good
on
> papaer, but would probably be a bit unweildy on the
> tabletop considering all the other miniums the
Ottoman
> has to incorporate.



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I was considering putting my Swiss into 4 units of 8 elements each,
with the following breakdown:

Cinc LHI P + 1E Reg A LHI P,4E Reg B LMI P,2E Reg B LMI 2HCT

Ally Gen LHI P + 1E Reg A LHI P,4E Reg B LMI P,2E Reg B LMI 2HCT

2 units of 2E Reg A LHI P,2E Reg B LMI P,2E Reg B 2 HCT

I was thinking of using each unit with a 2 element wide frontage with
the LHI in front during approaches. This would give me 3 rows of
pikes, and then I could also expand if the opponent recoiled in H-T-
H. I was originally thinking of using the LHI HG in between the pike
blocks with the Xbow LI for my screen. Does this not seem reasonable?

How would the 12E, 48 figure pike block form into a unit?


--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "Frank Gilson"
<franktrevorgilson@h...> wrote:
> Sean,
>
> What was your rationale behind putting the Swiss foot into 48
figure
> units, and were you fully satisfied with that?
>
> I had considered running Swiss, but using 24 man units (probably 5
> of them.)
>
> Was it just vulnerability to shooting?
>
> Frank
>