Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[John Garlic]

Hi,

Just posing a question for discussion. Anyone use HC with CB much? I have
looked at them trying to figure out optimal unit size and tactics. Just not
sure if they're worth the points or will be easily driven off. I thought they
might make a good knight counter.

Limited Warrior Battlefield Experience,
John Garlic


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 5/21/2004 20:47:04 Central Daylight Time,
jmgarlic@... writes:

Anyone use HC with CB much?>>
I used to mess around with Liang Chia-tzu a while ago and given the
direction of OW, I am going to start using HC CB again. Yes, they can keep a
knight
busy - and make a guy pay for taking anything less than SHK... but I look at
them more as the old cheap reg HC L closer who now can get out of a bad spot
a little more easily. and, like the reg HC L Scott and I use in teams - in
combination with terrain or a counter move to keep all targets out of 120p
from enemy loose - who then charge them and make them waver at a halt.
in no way would i put them in or in front of the battle line unless only K
or SHC or foot without missiles opposed me..lol
some interesting dismount possibilities there, but given the lack of cost
effectiveness, only as a rare option.
Jon


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[joncleaves]

In a message dated 5/21/2004 21:32:07 Central Daylight Time,
larryessick@... writes:

As with any HC missile only troop, these should be taken in multiples
of 3E. Keep them in deep formation and skirmish whenever possible in
order to maximize shooting.>>
I was speaking to those HC CB that also had lance/2HCT, but Larry brings up
something interesting here....



Note 8.7 that prevents rear rank shooting unless in skirmish. A 3E HC
unit in skirmish will get 6 Cb shooting as opposed to 3. And, if able
to expand w/o placing itself in too much danger, can get all 9 Cb
shooting the same target.>>
While it is true that in skirmish such troops shoot 1/.5/.5 in three ranks,
that is only +1 figure shooting over two ranks worth in skirmish for much more
cost. Also that figure goes from 5 to 6 only at 80p (from 81p to 160p it
is 3 either way) and 80p might be a tad close to most things...lol
It is the fact of their ability to shoot and thus split fire as well as
being able to enter skirmish at all that makes the CB worth it over non-CB
oriental cav. The actual shooting itself is the least important characteristic
and
in my opinion the +1 fig at 80 for that third rank is not at all worth the
cost of another element.
Jon





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[joncleaves]

In a message dated 5/21/2004 22:43:02 Central Daylight Time,
larryessick@... writes:

IIRC, 2HCT does not count when
used mounted. >>
It does - as L.

There may be (or be plans for) list rules that allow
2HCT to be used this way, I don't know.>>
Some oriental cav listed as L will dismount with 2HCT.



Players underestimate the importance of that extra 1 figure shooting
on a per element frontage. Because I always depend on a -1 dice
result a 6 @ 0 produces a FP against a 2E SHK while 5 figures shooting
do not.>>
if you are a 'down one' theorist and not an expected value theorist, that
would make sense.

Meanwhile, 9 figures produce 1.5 FP and get 2 FP if the roll
is even whereas 6 figures get 1 FP on both a down 1 and even roll and
must roll up 1 to get to 2 FP.>>
getting a 3E wide against a single 2E SHK unit means you aren't playing
someone you have to optimize against anyway...lol



Using Cb equipped HC as imitation lancers is a poor use of the troop
and an entire waste of rear ranks that can neither shoot in support
nor fight in melee.>>
I didn't say imitation lancers. These troops will often be Reg HC L CB.
The lance will be real, allowing _5@7_ (mailto:5@7) vs foot and other lancers.



Again, if equipped *only* with a missile weapon HC should be in
multiples of 3E. >>
If you are base your planning on rolling down one and not overly concerned
about cost effectiveness, this might be true. But stat analysis would
disagree.

If forced to take additional weapons then 2E
multiples is better -- although not taking the troops in that
situation is the best choice.>>
The reason we shy from HC CB isn't the factor - it is the loss of the second
rank shooting (vis a vis B). Your not going to use HC in a stand up fight
with LC B or missile foot anyway, so really the CB is more efficient against K
than B as long as you are 2E wide or in skirmish.
J






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[Larry Essick]

> Anyone use HC with CB much?

As with any HC missile only troop, these should be taken in multiples
of 3E. Keep them in deep formation and skirmish whenever possible in
order to maximize shooting.

Note 8.7 that prevents rear rank shooting unless in skirmish. A 3E HC
unit in skirmish will get 6 Cb shooting as opposed to 3. And, if able
to expand w/o placing itself in too much danger, can get all 9 Cb
shooting the same target.

Reg HC is much preferred to Irr HC for obvious reasons. If forced to
run Irr HC, greater care must be taken when faced by infantry.

Larry

[Larry Essick]

> > As with any HC missile only troop, these should be taken in
multiples
> > of 3E.

> The actual shooting itself is the least important characteristic
and
> in my opinion the +1 fig at 80 for that third rank is not at all
worth the
> cost of another element.

Notice that I clearly state "missile only" when recommending 3E of
depth. BTW, this includes JLS,Sh. Unless forced to have Sh and 2HCT,
buying these is just a waste of point. IIRC, 2HCT does not count when
used mounted. There may be (or be plans for) list rules that allow
2HCT to be used this way, I don't know.

Players underestimate the importance of that extra 1 figure shooting
on a per element frontage. Because I always depend on a -1 dice
result a 6 @ 0 produces a FP against a 2E SHK while 5 figures shooting
do not. Meanwhile, 9 figures produce 1.5 FP and get 2 FP if the roll
is even whereas 6 figures get 1 FP on both a down 1 and even roll and
must roll up 1 to get to 2 FP.

Using Cb equipped HC as imitation lancers is a poor use of the troop
and an entire waste of rear ranks that can neither shoot in support
nor fight in melee.

Again, if equipped *only* with a missile weapon HC should be in
multiples of 3E. If forced to take additional weapons then 2E
multiples is better -- although not taking the troops in that
situation is the best choice.

Larry

My own experience as a newbie is limited, but I have concluded for myself that
LC, B are the best thing for just "keeping a knight busy" here are my reasons.

a.. as a "Keep the guy busy tool", I think you want the unit to be
inexpensive, for sake of economy of force.
b.. Always get to evade.
c.. Get a parthian shot
d.. Get more scouting points
e.. react faster
f.. much harder to catch when evading (HC rolling down will get caught much of
the time)
Stick something in front of the knight that he can't ignore because it can hurt
him. Make it impossible for him to catch for when he finally gives in and
charges. If he ends up "close but not quite, do a parthian shot and hurt him
again. This is alot of fun. More fun than it really should be. Especially if you
like inflicting pain on aristocrats. You know this already, I'm just explaining
myself.
If you can tack on L or JLS, you can counter attack later if you ever get the
opportunity.

In my case, my otherwise usles HC L (that's it, just Lance, Sheesh) get to have
their fun when the LC, B get bored. (this can take some time). If you use HC,
CB, you have fewer points to spend on the other stuff because lets face it, all
they are ever going to do is shoot, and you only get 5 shots before your tired
assuming nothing worse happens.

Allan Lougheed
----- Original Message -----
From: jmgarlic@...
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, May 21, 2004 9:23 PM
Subject: [WarriorRules] HC CB Tactics


Hi,

Just posing a question for discussion. Anyone use HC with CB much? I have
looked at them trying to figure out optimal unit size and tactics. Just not
sure if they're worth the points or will be easily driven off. I thought they
might make a good knight counter.

Limited Warrior Battlefield Experience,
John Garlic


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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