Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[John Murphy]

I decided to post this because, while all are exhausted from army
lists from me, this is one that is generally viewed as non-
competitive which I don't see as deserving _all_ the bad rep it
gets. Which is not to say it would be easy to play still.

Although it will soon be superceded I took the effort to come up
with something I might like using the old NASAMW Later Hoplite Greek
list, choosing the middle period Spartans as a matter of personal
preference.

Lots to work out yet but the basis is something like the following.

core hoplites (3-8 units, 434-904 points):
1x Spartan C-in-C/Lakonian Perioikoi 4E Reg 1A/3B MI LTS,Sh @178
2x Spartan Sub-General/Lakonian Perioikoi 4E Reg 1A/3B MI LTS,Sh @128
0-5x Spartiates/Lakonian Perioikoi 4E Reg 1A/3B MI LTS,Sh @94

core light or mounted support troops (10-11 units, 426-481 points):
1x Thessalian Cavalry 2E RegB HC/MC JLS @58 (list-rule equivalent
fight 1.5 ranks)
4x Thessalian Cavalry 2E RegB LC JLS @38 (list-rule equivalent fight
1.5 ranks)
1x Archers 10E IrrC LI B,Sh/B @75
0-1x Slingers 6E IrrC LI S,Sh/S @55
1x Psiloi 10E IrrC LI JLS,Sh/JLS @75
3x Cretan Archers 2E RegC LI B @22

option #1 - Thracian and Paphlagonian troops (7 units, 493 points)
1x Thracian Cavalry 2E IrrB LC JLS @45 (list-rule equivalent fight
1.5 ranks)
2x Thracian Peltasts 6E IrrC LMI 2HCW,JLS/JLS @88
2x Paphlagonian Cavalry 4E IrrC LC JLS @57
2x Paphlagonian Foot 6E IrrC LMI JLS,Sh @79

option #2 - Syracusan allied command (1 staff plus 4 units, 383
points):
1x Syracusan Ally-General 1E RegC HC JLS @91
2x Syracusan Gauls 4E IrrA LMI JLS,Sh @85
2x Syracusan Spaniards 4E IrrC LMI HTW,Sh @61

There might actually be quite a few things to like about this list
that should encourage a hoplite player.

1. The cavalry, while completely shieldless, at least can be
configured with a mixture of good-morale regulars and irregulars to
be largely capable of fight in 1.5 ranks with JLS, making it
potentially a decent skirmish force I think. If you get toe to toe
with horse archers they will be shieldess shooting too and
regularity and morale may help. If you get into HtH with enemy LC/LI
the JLS in 1.5 ranks will a huge plus, probably offsetting the lack
of shields. So I am suprised to find this a potential strength. We
will see if this is diminished somewhat under ClassWar when the
actual list rule and troop mixture may be less universal.

2. The light infantry is terrific in this army. You get an excellent
mixture of cheap small regular units and bulky irregulars with half-
shields which is an ideal combination. Some jav troops and some long-
range missile troops, including an option for slingers which
provides a bit of impact against heavier armor types. This is
another suprising feature of the army which could actually be
unequivocally stated as a standout strength.

3. The terrain troops are not the absolute best but depending how
they are configured they range from perfectly acceptable to actually
pretty good. At any rate certainly no need to fear having a large
amount of bad going on the battlefield.

4. The hoplites are at least rock-solid in morale and not too
terribly expensive as MI. They are not going to run down enemy
skirmishers. They are not ging to be happy facing Moogs. But at
least most troops are perhaps not going to make much of an impact on
them and there may be some tactical chances to facilitate their use
in combination with the excellent LI this army has.

Overall I do not find this a bad army at all, just one like Romans
that has suffered from an emphasis on CO foot being unable to run
down enemy skirmish troops and being hard to set up with low
movement rates for tactical combinations. But this army has some
other features that may make it possible to releive these
difficulties somewhat.

There are a huge number of cheap units available - so many I wonder
if I added up the costs correctly (but I am more accustomed to
medieval numbers). With a good amount of terrain to cut the board
down this could be actually a very tough army.

[Bill Chriss]

>
>
>
>
> I decided to post this because, while all are exhausted from army
> lists from me, this is one that is generally viewed as non-
> competitive which I don't see as deserving _all_ the bad rep it
> gets. Which is not to say it would be easy to play still.
>
> Although it will soon be superceded I took the effort to come up
> with something I might like using the old NASAMW Later Hoplite Greek
> list, choosing the middle period Spartans as a matter of personal
> preference.
>
> Lots to work out yet but the basis is something like the following.
>
> core hoplites (3-8 units, 434-904 points):
> 1x Spartan C-in-C/Lakonian Perioikoi 4E Reg 1A/3B MI LTS,Sh @178
> 2x Spartan Sub-General/Lakonian Perioikoi 4E Reg 1A/3B MI LTS,Sh @128
> 0-5x Spartiates/Lakonian Perioikoi 4E Reg 1A/3B MI LTS,Sh @94
>
> core light or mounted support troops (10-11 units, 426-481 points):
> 1x Thessalian Cavalry 2E RegB HC/MC JLS @58 (list-rule equivalent
> fight 1.5 ranks)
> 4x Thessalian Cavalry 2E RegB LC JLS @38 (list-rule equivalent fight
> 1.5 ranks)
> 1x Archers 10E IrrC LI B,Sh/B @75
> 0-1x Slingers 6E IrrC LI S,Sh/S @55
> 1x Psiloi 10E IrrC LI JLS,Sh/JLS @75
> 3x Cretan Archers 2E RegC LI B @22
>
> option #1 - Thracian and Paphlagonian troops (7 units, 493 points)
> 1x Thracian Cavalry 2E IrrB LC JLS @45 (list-rule equivalent fight
> 1.5 ranks)
> 2x Thracian Peltasts 6E IrrC LMI 2HCW,JLS/JLS @88
> 2x Paphlagonian Cavalry 4E IrrC LC JLS @57
> 2x Paphlagonian Foot 6E IrrC LMI JLS,Sh @79
>
> option #2 - Syracusan allied command (1 staff plus 4 units, 383
> points):
> 1x Syracusan Ally-General 1E RegC HC JLS @91
> 2x Syracusan Gauls 4E IrrA LMI JLS,Sh @85
> 2x Syracusan Spaniards 4E IrrC LMI HTW,Sh @61
>
> There might actually be quite a few things to like about this list
> that should encourage a hoplite player.
>


No question. thessalian LC rocks big time, and matches up equally (with
the rhomboid list rule) with shielded JLS LC. BUT to get all the nasty LMI
troops, etc., you have to be a Spartan, which I cannot accept, being the
descendant of Messenian helots (and thus Nestorian Pylians) freed by the
campaigns of Epaminondas!! Check my army list in the files section, and
you'll seee other possibilities there, although not as mouthwatering as
Syracusan Celtiberians, Reg A Spartiates, etc., etc.


Greek

[John Murphy]

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, hrisikos@D... wrote:
> > core hoplites (3-8 units, 434-904 points):
> > 0-5x Spartiates/Lakonian Perioikoi 4E Reg 1A/3B MI LTS,Sh @94

Just btw, figured out one could actually go all the way to 9 units
plus 3 generals (12 total) for something around 1200 pts of
hoplites. Just depending how long a wall of spears you want relative
to support troop options.

> > option #1 - Thracian and Paphlagonian troops (7 units, 493
points)
> > 1x Thracian Cavalry 2E IrrB LC JLS @45 (list-rule equivalent
fight
> > 1.5 ranks)
> > 2x Thracian Peltasts 6E IrrC LMI 2HCW,JLS/JLS @88

> BUT to get all the nasty LMI
> troops, etc., you have to be a Spartan

Do you need to be Spartan to get the Thracians, though? Even without
the Paphlagonians the Thracians give you a couple real decent
terrain units (might help against Elephants too with a bit of
support). And you can still certainly benefit from any more of the
wedging LC you can get though as Irregulars the Thracians use is a
bit different than the Thessalians.

Of course I am sure "super-peltast" regulars are pretty nice
flexible troops too.

> which I cannot accept, being the
> descendant of Messenian helots (and thus Nestorian Pylians) freed
by the
> campaigns of Epaminondas!!

Yeah, I actually kind of like the Spartans mean, nasty bad-guy
image. Being raised on stories of the militaristic autocratic commie
long-hair Spartans living apart from their women and threatening the
philosophical democratic egalitarian capitalist Athenian defenders
of the free world.

But, hey, I play Crusaders and Hundred Years War English and some of
the wonderfully humanitarian armies that spun off from them!

I'll take a look at your list file.

[John Murphy]

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, hrisikos@D... wrote:
> Check my army list in the files section, and
> you'll seee other possibilities there

Wow. Very nice. I hope the Classical Warrior folks are reading it
too. Gives some very nice options and list rules without being
too "sexed up".

I can tell a lot of work went into that. Congratulations.

[scott holder]

Wow. Very nice. I hope the Classical Warrior folks are reading it
too.

>Um, who are these Classical Warrior folks?

>Me.

scott

[Mike Bard]

> I decided to post this because, while all are exhausted from army
> lists from me, this is one that is generally viewed as non-
> competitive which I don't see as deserving _all_ the bad rep it
> gets. Which is not to say it would be easy to play still.

At least I'm not alone...

> Although it will soon be superceded I took the effort to come up
> with something I might like using the old NASAMW Later Hoplite Greek
> list, choosing the middle period Spartans as a matter of personal
> preference.
>
> Lots to work out yet but the basis is something like the following.
>
> core hoplites (3-8 units, 434-904 points):
> 1x Spartan C-in-C/Lakonian Perioikoi 4E Reg 1A/3B MI LTS,Sh @178
> 2x Spartan Sub-General/Lakonian Perioikoi 4E Reg 1A/3B MI LTS,Sh @128
> 0-5x Spartiates/Lakonian Perioikoi 4E Reg 1A/3B MI LTS,Sh @94

I usually run my Spartans in blocks of 16. Out of curiosity, why aren't you
going for As in the full front rank? You don't get any waver check bonuses
but they don't need to be supported which makes them perfect for anchoring
the ends of a line in case you don't have the terrain.

> core light or mounted support troops (10-11 units, 426-481 points):
> 1x Thessalian Cavalry 2E RegB HC/MC JLS @58 (list-rule equivalent
> fight 1.5 ranks)
> 4x Thessalian Cavalry 2E RegB LC JLS @38 (list-rule equivalent fight
> 1.5 ranks)

I do the same with the LC (though I take a bit less) and us the rest of the
Thessalian HC to go with the Syracusan sub-general. Note that I tossed Jon
an e-mail before Cold Wars and was told that I could upgrade the Syracusan
Ally general's direct bodyguard (those on the same base) to Bs. Currently I
take 3 blocks of Thessalian LC to allow for more auxiliaries. Maybe I take
too many?

> 1x Archers 10E IrrC LI B,Sh/B @75
> 0-1x Slingers 6E IrrC LI S,Sh/S @55
> 1x Psiloi 10E IrrC LI JLS,Sh/JLS @75
> 3x Cretan Archers 2E RegC LI B @22

I don't take any archers, but do take 3 blocks of 2 element cretans
(shielded). These I almost always force march to deny table to the enemy.
Being shielded Reg Cs they're cheap but annoying. I've been finding that
large blocks of LI JLS Sh are too restrictive and have downgraded them to
the current level of 4 element blocks. It seems that when I need them to
fall back through the hoplites, I never have the prompt points, or they fail
their waver checks for being charged. The problem is that with JLS they
only have a range of 40 paces which means that cavalry can hit them when
required, and force the waver check. If they pass they can generally take a
LC charge, but usually I have them evade. Maybe I should let them stand
more often? My current thought is to keep them in front of alternating
hoplite blocks to disrupt the enemy line so that I can concentrate hoplites
on an unsupported point. In recent test games I've found that a single
block of 6 elements of Sl is too unwieldy - I'm going to try 2 blocks of 3
elements and hide them in woods to pop out and hurt (hopefully) enemy
cavalry.

> option #1 - Thracian and Paphlagonian troops (7 units, 493 points)
> 1x Thracian Cavalry 2E IrrB LC JLS @45 (list-rule equivalent fight
> 1.5 ranks)
> 2x Thracian Peltasts 6E IrrC LMI 2HCW,JLS/JLS @88
> 2x Paphlagonian Cavalry 4E IrrC LC JLS @57
> 2x Paphlagonian Foot 6E IrrC LMI JLS,Sh @79

I do option 2, so no experience about this though I have played around with
the Thracians. In fact I want to make a block as a possible replacement for
the Syracusans, using the Thracians to clear woods I cleverly place on the
flanks. The Paphlagonian foot gives good rough terrain troops so I don't
see a problem here. My thought is to run the Thracians in blocks of 2
elements, front element with 2HCW and toss them into woods, possibly with
light infantry support, and either clear woods of enemies, or hit opportune
enemy flanks.

> option #2 - Syracusan allied command (1 staff plus 4 units, 383
> points):
> 1x Syracusan Ally-General 1E RegC HC JLS @91
> 2x Syracusan Gauls 4E IrrA LMI JLS,Sh @85
> 2x Syracusan Spaniards 4E IrrC LMI HTW,Sh @61

I take much closer to the maximums the Syracuse option allows. Either 2 or
3 2 element Gaul blocks to skulk in woods and either clear them, or hit
enemy flanks if an opportune moment occurs, and generally 4 2 element blocks
of Spaniards to act as a second punch to hoplite assaults on enemy infantry
blocks (hoplites contract to 2 elements wide, 3 figures deep and charge,
next bound the Spaniards charge through the convenient gap for a second
punch).

> There might actually be quite a few things to like about this list
> that should encourage a hoplite player.
>
> 1. The cavalry, while completely shieldless, at least can be
> configured with a mixture of good-morale regulars and irregulars to
> be largely capable of fight in 1.5 ranks with JLS, making it
> potentially a decent skirmish force I think. If you get toe to toe
> with horse archers they will be shieldess shooting too and
> regularity and morale may help. If you get into HtH with enemy LC/LI
> the JLS in 1.5 ranks will a huge plus, probably offsetting the lack
> of shields. So I am suprised to find this a potential strength. We
> will see if this is diminished somewhat under ClassWar when the
> actual list rule and troop mixture may be less universal.

The problem I've run into is that enemy bow armed LC rip them apart in
shooting. You have to play them REALLY cautiously to keep them alive to do
their job and delay the enemy, but as long as you avoid mass bow fire they
work fairly well. The one two-element unit of HC, JLS I have I use as a
reserve on the attack flank to plug holes, hit opportune enemy units if
needed, and rally units.

> 2. The light infantry is terrific in this army. You get an excellent
> mixture of cheap small regular units and bulky irregulars with half-
> shields which is an ideal combination. Some jav troops and some long-
> range missile troops, including an option for slingers which
> provides a bit of impact against heavier armor types. This is
> another suprising feature of the army which could actually be
> unequivocally stated as a standout strength.

I've found that mass LI is a trap. I used to field 32 elements of JLS, Sh
(in 4 groups of 8 elements each) but I found them too unwieldy and more
often than not they caused problems for my hoplite line. I've also found
that you really need to equip them with shields as numerous times I'veneeded
to expand them into a single line to delay large enemy blocks. The slingers
I'm still working with, and the Cretans are definitely worth it. More bow
is an option, but I'm going to hold off painting them until the final list
is out so I don't end up with too many of them.

> 3. The terrain troops are not the absolute best but depending how
> they are configured they range from perfectly acceptable to actually
> pretty good. At any rate certainly no need to fear having a large
> amount of bad going on the battlefield.

The best terrain choices I've found so far are 4 woods. With 4 choices you
should be able to put one near the middle of the map and protect a flank.
Then one command (the small one) with hold orders anchors itself to my edge
of the table and slowly moves forward, while the attack command (the big
one) agressively moves towards the enemy. The ideal case if to have a line
of woods going down the majority of the centre of the table with celts
running through it making sure there are no surprises, while the hoplite
line advances in an arc anchored with the forest at one flank, and my long
table edge at the other.

> 4. The hoplites are at least rock-solid in morale and not too
> terribly expensive as MI. They are not going to run down enemy
> skirmishers. They are not ging to be happy facing Moogs. But at
> least most troops are perhaps not going to make much of an impact on
> them and there may be some tactical chances to facilitate their use
> in combination with the excellent LI this army has.

It's odd that you take an entirely Spartan army. I take some Spartans (and
may eventually take none when I get enough hoplites painted) and find that
Cs work fine as long as the enemy doesn't start breaking hoplite units
(something they have to work for in general). It makes my army larger in
models, but it tends to collapse faster if things go wrong. The all Spartan
army simply doesn't go away, but you have less figures. Currently, I
believe that the more figures is the better way to go.

Of course, since Spartans didn't adopt the lambda shield design until
~424BC, I may just try an early all Spartan, all the time army. There's
just something appealing about 140 Spartans, half HI, half MI, advancing up
the table and never ever going away. You do end up needing to use the LI to
clear terrain though.

> Overall I do not find this a bad army at all, just one like Romans
> that has suffered from an emphasis on CO foot being unable to run
> down enemy skirmish troops and being hard to set up with low
> movement rates for tactical combinations. But this army has some
> other features that may make it possible to releive these
> difficulties somewhat.
>
> There are a huge number of cheap units available - so many I wonder
> if I added up the costs correctly (but I am more accustomed to
> medieval numbers). With a good amount of terrain to cut the board
> down this could be actually a very tough army.

The primary problem I've found is initiative. Because the core of the army
is close order infantry, the enemy generally has control of where and when
the actual battle takes place and, by and large, the hoplites have to react
to what the enemy does. That, in my mind anyway, is the main weakness.

Finally, for the amusement of all (and inviting comments), here is the
current 1600pt list I'm using (with annotated comments). Note that I centre
mine around the Peleponesian War which is where all the mercenaries came
from.

Spartan Command (CinC)
4 elements MI, LTS, Sh Reg A Spartiates, including Spartan general. 190pts
6 elements MI, LTS, Sh Reg C Allied Hoplites. 106pts
6 elements MI, LTS, Sh Reg C Allied Hoplites. 106pts
2 elements LMI, HTW, Sh Irreg C Syracusan Spaniards. 43pts
4 elements LI JLS, Sh Irreg C Javelinmen. 49pts
2 elements LI B, Sh Reg C Cretans. 26pts
2 elements LC JLS Reg B Thessalian. 38pts

The close order infantry in this command is designed to anchor one side but
not to engage the enemy (or act as a reserve in case of a break through.
Generally the Spartans will be on the far end, and one hoplite block
adjacent, with the second block in reserve to either plug a hole as the line
advances, or plug a hole in case of a penetration in the attack command
(gotta love march moves). The Spaniards remain close behind the hoplite
line to act as a punch in case of an assault (the hoplite block contracts to
2 elements wide, 3 deep, and the Spaniards charge through the gap next turn.
If woods existed on the flank defended by this command, the Spaniards would
either ambush in it, or move through it. The LI JLS Sh remain in a single
rank in front of the two forward hoplite units looking for opportunities to
hurt enemy probes, or delay the charge to contact by evading behind the
hoplite line. The Cretans force march forward to deny the enemy table space
and delay their attack as long as possible. The LC marches behind them to
delay far flank enemy movements.

Syracusan Ally Command (Ally)
1 element - Syracusan Ally General + 2 Syracusan HC Bodyguard, JLS, Reg B; 1
element Reg C Syracusan HC. 117pts
4 elements MI LTS, Sh Reg A Spartiates. 106pts
6 elements MI LTS, Sh Reg C Mercenary Hoplites. 106pts
6 elements MI LTS, Sh Reg C Mercenary Hoplites. 106pts
6 elements MI LTS, Sh Reg C Mercenary Hoplites. 106pts
2 elements LMI HTW, Sh Irreg C Spaniards. 43pts
2 elements LMI HTW, Sh Irreg C Spaniards. 43pts
2 elements LMI HTW, Sh Irreg C Spaniards. 43pts
2 elements LMI JLS, Sh Irreg A Gauls. 55pts
2 elements LMI JLS, Sh Irreg A Gauls. 55pts
3 elements LI Sl, Sh Irreg C Slingers. 43pts
3 elements LI Sl, Sh Irreg C Slingers. 43pts
4 elements LI JLS, Sh Irreg C Javelinmen. 49pts
2 elements LI B, Sh Reg C Cretans. 26pts
2 elements LI B, Sh Reg C Cretans. 26pts
2 elements LC JLS Reg B Thessalian. 38pts
2 elements LC JLS Reg B Thessalian. 38pts

Yes, it is an ally general and yes there is a 1 in 36 chance of them
becoming unreliable. I'm willing to accept that due to the odds, due to the
fact that other than an all Spartan army you have to take nothing but ally
generals, and the fact that I need the cavalry to support the attack and to
rally troops. I will try switching generals between the two commands and
that may work though I won't be able to rally LC and LI bodies if required.

As to the rest, the 3 Mercenary hoplite units form the main attack line,
with the Spartans behind the far end of the line as a reserve. The
Spaniards follow close behind each mercenary block so that when combat
occurs, the hoplite block can contract frontage (before the charge) and the
Spaniards can then charge in next bound. The Gauls lurk around the woods
which is hopefully protecting the flank of the advance. The slingers lurk
either behind the hoplite line to lunge forward and hit enemy cavalary units
that move too close, or sneak around in woods looking for opportune flank
targets for shooting hit and runs. The Javelinmen advance in one block in
front of the centre hoplite unit so that the flank units can contact
isolated enemy blocks as the LI block their companions. Against cavalry
they would be single rank to delay the enemy, and shoot if the chance comes.
The Cretans force march to claim table space. The LC either defend the
flank against enemy penetrations if there is no defensive terrain, or march
over to join the LC on the other flank to delay the enemy. If the enemy has
a large cavalry concentration they would skirmish with that to delay it.

Comments? Thoughts?

Michael Bard
That Greek Hoplite Guy

[Bill Chriss]

>
>
>
>
> Wow. Very nice. I hope the Classical Warrior folks are reading it
> too.
>
>
>
>
>
> scott
>


O andros mou. O meglo andros mou.

(translation: my man; my main man!)




Greek

[Bill Chriss]

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "Holder, Scott"
<Scott.Holder@f...> wrote:
> Wow. Very nice. I hope the Classical Warrior folks are reading it
> too.
>
> >Um, who are these Classical Warrior folks?
>
> >Me.
>
> scott


oops, last time I clipped the wrong part of the message.

I refer to fearless leader Scott here as the main man. We can assume
he is well versed in the issues outstanding here, and our opinions
on them!


greek

[Bill Chriss]

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, I wrote:
>> > BUT to get all the nasty LMI
> > troops, etc., you have to be a Spartan
>


John said:

> Do you need to be Spartan to get the Thracians, though? Even
without
> the Paphlagonians the Thracians give you a couple real decent
> terrain units (might help against Elephants too with a bit of
> support). And you can still certainly benefit from any more of the
> wedging LC you can get though as Irregulars the Thracians use is a
> bit different than the Thessalians.
>


Echeis dikeo, Yanni. (translation: you are quite right, John).
Thracians are nasty indeed, just not AS nasty as Syracusan
Celtiberians!


Greek

[Bill Chriss]

> I
> take 3 blocks of Thessalian LC to allow for more auxiliaries. Maybe I
> take
> too many?

No, I think you're just about right, though I prefer four or five, but
then I don't have the damn barbarian Celtiberians to spend points on. A
real Hellene's only barbarian auxiliaries are Thracian or Illyrian.


>
>
>
>
>
> I don't take any archers, but do take 3 blocks of 2 element cretans
> (shielded). These I almost always force march to deny table to the enemy.
> Being shielded Reg Cs they're cheap but annoying.


I disagree with shielding archers. They're going to shoot and be
shieldless anyway, and LI w/javelin will beat them shield or no shield.
And when they're in skirmish, they ;re shieldless as shooting.


I've been finding that
> large blocks of LI JLS Sh are too restrictive and have downgraded them to
> the current level of 4 element blocks. It seems that when I need them to
> fall back through the hoplites, I never have the prompt points, or they
> fail
> their waver checks for being charged. The problem is that with JLS they
> only have a range of 40 paces which means that cavalry can hit them when
> required, and force the waver check. If they pass they can generally take
> a
> LC charge, but usually I have them evade. Maybe I should let them stand
> more often?


I agree with all of this, but my LI seldom skirmishes, and if not in
skirmish, never evades.


My thought is to run the Thracians in blocks of 2
> elements, front element with 2HCW and toss them into woods, possibly with
> light infantry support, and either clear woods of enemies, or hit
> opportune
> enemy flanks.
>

Don't like this either. A huge waste of points. Little tiny Irreg LMI
units are expensive and vulnerable. I fight them 6E at least, preferably
9E so as to have exra ranks to expand on followup.



>
>
>
>
>
> I take much closer to the maximums the Syracuse option allows.


Yes, well, I know that is inevitable for those of you without
ethnic/family issues. And i think in game terms it makes great sense, but
no trouser-wearers for me. Is this a Greek army or is it a barbarian army
calling itself Greek?



> The best terrain choices I've found so far are 4 woods.


Nope. Write this down: 1. minor water feature; 2. marsh; 3. woods; 4.
woods,rocky steep hill, or brush (depending on your opponent and
strategy). With the water feature, you have a 67% chance (or 82% if in
home climate) of the stream running close to either side of table center
(longitudinally and latitudinally). Then you have a 67% (or 82%) chance of
successfully rolling the marsh which is essentially the same as brush, but
may be placed anywhere along the river EVEN IN THE FORWARD CENTRAL SECTOR.
Add a woods to shield a flank OR to place in your center rear zone a few
inches directly behind the marsh (67% chance), in which case you have two
roough terrain pieces running an element or two apart from each other and
dividing your half of the table in two longitudinally. Add terrain pick 4
aas and if desired (won't give out all my secrets). Now you can sned a
couple of trash units on one side to delay the enemy advance, anchor one
flank of your phalanx on the marsh in the center of the table (force march
them), and steamroll that side. Remember how George Foreman boxed: cut
down the ring, then short clipping blows tpo the head at close quarters.


>
> Finally, for the amusement of all (and inviting comments), here is the
> current 1600pt list I'm using (with annotated comments).


Well, as Michael (I think) pointed out, as a professional political
scientist/historian, I am of the democratic/capitalist Athenophile variety
so this Spartan/Syracusan thing is just not my bag (You guys would have
been trying to start oligarchic coups behind Pericles' and Epaminondas'
backs). However, my one comment is that one ally/sub is not enough. It
just doesn't allow enough wiliness. You need another, if for no other
reason than to have the option/threat of flankmarcvhing a command with
him.


Hey, great discussion guys. My cup of tea.



Greek

[John Murphy]

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Bard" <mwbard@r...>
wrote:
> Out of curiosity, why aren't you
> going for As in the full front rank? You don't get any waver
check bonuses
> but they don't need to be supported which makes them perfect for
anchoring
> the ends of a line in case you don't have the terrain.

A body that has _any_ A class troops in its front rank is _never_
uneasy. So a single element of Reg A Spartans in a Reg B unit means
you are never uneasy and never need supprt for morale purposes. You
could take more it would be a waste of 4 points per 4E unit, I think.

Now, that said I am not certain how this will be handled in the new
list. There are far fewer troops that still get to mix morale
classes and I have no clue if Spartans will among them because I do
not know (a) wether Spartiates and Perioikoi mixed historically and
(b) wether the list author will believe they did.

But until then I'd do them as 4E 1A/3B.

> I do the same with the LC (though I take a bit less) and us the
rest of the
> Thessalian HC to go with the Syracusan sub-general. Note that I
tossed Jon
> an e-mail before Cold Wars and was told that I could upgrade the
Syracusan
> Ally general's direct bodyguard (those on the same base) to Bs.
Currently I
> take 3 blocks of Thessalian LC to allow for more auxiliaries.
Maybe I take
> too many?

I would say (and consider the source), take every darn Thessalian LC
you can get your hands on legally and force march them to the
centerline with a bunch of your LI in every battle. These are
absolutely superb yet dirt cheap and there are not so many of them
that they will be superfluous, it would in fact be nice to have
about half again as many as I took I would guess. Put them in tiny
units and really work the _other_ guy's flanks to the breaking point.

One thing I _can_ tell you for certain is that bulking up on real
good cheap LC like this will help you have a say in the course of
the battle, which I would imagine you need to find a way to do in
a "CO non-missile foot" army.

Look at it this way, the list is giving you a free capability you do
not have to pay for in points, and in fact is giving it to you in
discounted shieldless mounted troops providing a capability to
overcome that lack of shields. I say take em all you will find a use.

> I don't take any archers, but do take 3 blocks of 2 element cretans
> (shielded). These I almost always force march to deny table to
the enemy.
> I've been finding that
> large blocks of LI JLS Sh are too restrictive and have downgraded
them to
> the current level of 4 element blocks.

Okay, on the Cretans that is the idea exactly. However, shields are
not going to save these guys from abuse so I save the points, plus
they are all/none which is further points to spend. The little Reg
LI blocks can usually be the lowest morale dirt-cheapest trash
troops in the army. When you have all the excellent little Reg LC
units available I do not think you need these to be more than just
what you said and they do not need shields to take space. But that
is my opinion and not necessarily even a strong one.

On the larger blocks of Irreg LI Ewan is the one who persuaded me,
in working out the Later Polish stuff, how these can be useful - and
once you see it in one application like that you start to see other
ways as well.

There are several benefits to this to counter your tiny Reg LI -
remember you are striving for heterogeneity and different troops
that can fill different roles. First, large LI units can suck down
enemy missiles better and keep doing what they need to do. They can
also generate a lot of fire (so, by all means, take the archers and
slingers for longer range) against isolated enemy units and force
the enemy to line up element for element against the LI which is
wasting his points and forcing a weakness somewhere else you can
exploit. Finally the LI JLS give a bit of protection to the rest and
can at least shoot far enough to prevent enemy mounted from coming
right on top of them.

One problem with CO foot is not charging through your LI. However,
even JLS if the guy gets close enough to think he can catch your LI
can fire and force a charge-or-waver. Then you hop the LI through
the hoplites which need to close up behing them, and that should
really mess up any mounted that get too bold.

This screen is going to prevent those cavalry armies from shooting
up your hoplites no problem, and in fact your Thessalians in
sufficient numbers are going to work wonders against enemy LC and,
once you drive the flanking LC away, turn on his exposed and
vulnerable HC. In theory anyway.

Once again it is not like you are taking 200 figures of LI. You will
find a use for them and they are not that expensive, but keep the
Irregs huge to both let them suck up fire better and keep command
point costs down.

That is how I saw it anyway.

I would say don't prompt the LI to retire behind the hoplites unless
it is dire. They can use a counter to do the same thing if you make
your roll - if you blow it there is always next bound unless there
is really some pressing need (you have CO foot, time is on your
side). But to me generally the idea is to do something to make the
enemy charge them, then evade to the rear and let the hoplites do
their work.

Against LC this means the LC will not even close on the hoplites so
they get shot for 2 CPF, must charge or waver, then pay for their
mounted charge (now tired) and do not even get to hit and be broken
by your hoplites. But now you have a tired LC unit ready for your
Thessalians (in fact, there is no reason to even let LC anywhere
near your LI with enough of these, youll be charging his LI instead
and he will be stuck running heavier types into your LI which _will_
hit tired and break against your hoplites - in theory, once again
the LC sets up the battle).

> I do option 2, so no experience about this though I have played
around with
> the Thracians. In fact I want to make a block as a possible
replacement for
> the Syracusans, using the Thracians to clear woods I cleverly
place on the
> flanks. The Paphlagonian foot gives good rough terrain troops so
I don't
> see a problem here. My thought is to run the Thracians in blocks
of 2
> elements, front element with 2HCW and toss them into woods,
possibly with
> light infantry support, and either clear woods of enemies, or hit
opportune
> enemy flanks.

Workable but I have seen your "Syracusan option" and I imagine they
will do pretty well at this too.

But I would keep the LI to control space at the beginning of the
game and to work with the hoplites (and, one should add, the
Thessalians, after all if you support the large LI blocks with
Thessalian LC then you have the option not to evade and he is in
_big_ trouble if your LI stands and passes its waver - worth risking
a LI unit since I believe if it routs it interpenetrates your
hoplites rather than bursting through so you are not disordered).

Lots of interesting tactics you can work up with this.

> I take much closer to the maximums the Syracuse option allows.
Either 2 or
> 3 2 element Gaul blocks to skulk in woods and either clear them,
or hit
> enemy flanks if an opportune moment occurs, and generally 4 2
element blocks
> of Spaniards to act as a second punch to hoplite assaults on enemy
infantry
> blocks (hoplites contract to 2 elements wide, 3 figures deep and
charge,
> next bound the Spaniards charge through the convenient gap for a
second
> punch).

Yes I saw them, and I still think they are a nasty bunch. You run
these fine in my book, and thinking about using them with terrain I
believe will help your whole army a bit. I kinda like them as 4E for
me but that is more because 2-3E just do not last very long, but
probably 4E do not either.

One note is, as you have probably already figured, you will need the
smaller units the way you did it (and 4E vice 6E hoplite units,
maybe even consider some 2E hoplites) to make the combo work because
you may not find many enemy units that hang enough frontage out
there for you to pull it off otherwise.

> The problem I've run into is that enemy bow armed LC rip them
apart in
> shooting. You have to play them REALLY cautiously to keep them
alive to do
> their job and delay the enemy, but as long as you avoid mass bow
fire they
> work fairly well.

You are regular and can move 200p and still go into skirmish at 40p
away from an enemy LC B starting 240p away. One you are in skirmish
(and do not let him get a close-range shot if you are not), and have
enough LC units to match up (why you need _all_ those guys), you
should be fine and might even get to hit him just as bad as he hits
you. But the real key is also to use your horde of LC to work his
flanks hard and make him pay for the privelege of coming up to shoot
at you. If you get disordered and rally back with the guy in front
but the other guy charges him in the flank (or best of all multiple
guys from widely different directions) you are going to rout some
LC, or so it works with Byzantines and your Thessalians are actually
much better in some ways than Byz if you use their regularity to
mitigate the JLS-B difference.


The one two-element unit of HC, JLS I have I use as a
> reserve on the attack flank to plug holes, hit opportune enemy
units if
> needed, and rally units.

Another excellent unit to wait behind large Irreg LI for enemy LC to
waver or attack. But I also think with more LC you can afford to be
more aggressive overall and especially with these. They _can_
skirmish or if not at least be far enough away to avoid being
charged (if they can't move up to it and skirmish it can't charge
them). This can still dish out some fire in skirmish too so I would
be tempted to hang it out there.

> I've found that mass LI is a trap. I used to field 32 elements of
JLS, Sh
> (in 4 groups of 8 elements each) but I found them too unwieldy and
more
> often than not they caused problems for my hoplite line. I've
also found
> that you really need to equip them with shields as numerous times
I'veneeded
> to expand them into a single line to delay large enemy blocks.
The slingers
> I'm still working with, and the Cretans are definitely worth it.
More bow
> is an option, but I'm going to hold off painting them until the
final list
> is out so I don't end up with too many of them.

A lot of this will change when you have LC supriority perhaps. But I
am still suprised to hear this. You have the little reg units for
delay, your large Irregs are more for working with the hoplites (and
you might keep a mounted around too if you have not driven off all
the enemy LC).

But, you have obviously based this on your experience with your army
so I would do better to wait and listen to what other advice a
better player may have to offer on this.

> The best terrain choices I've found so far are 4 woods.

That, or 1 major water and 3 woods. Depends on whether you grab all
those LC. With the LC I would take the 4 woods (because, yes, your
Syracusans will do well using them I think), without I would take
the major water first so you can shut down one flank entirely - but
keep that cheap Thessalian shieldless Reg HC/MC around if the other
guy puts out boats - even if it is horse transports for his
bodyguard gendarmes (!) you will break them if you charge as it hits
the shore.

> Then one command (the small one) with hold orders anchors itself
to my edge
> of the table and slowly moves forward, while the attack command
(the big
> one) agressively moves towards the enemy. The ideal case if to
have a line
> of woods going down the majority of the centre of the table with
celts
> running through it making sure there are no surprises, while the
hoplite
> line advances in an arc anchored with the forest at one flank, and
my long
> table edge at the other.

Sounds like a plan. Once again, though, with more LC (and lights in
general) you can be more aggressive and maybe turn your hold into a
probe.

> It's odd that you take an entirely Spartan army. I take some
Spartans (and
> may eventually take none when I get enough hoplites painted) and
find that
> Cs work fine as long as the enemy doesn't start breaking hoplite
units
> (something they have to work for in general). It makes my army
larger in
> models, but it tends to collapse faster if things go wrong. The
all Spartan
> army simply doesn't go away, but you have less figures.
Currently, I
> believe that the more figures is the better way to go.

Just depends on what you want them to do with the rest of the army.
I see the advantage of Regs in terms of adjusting frontages for
combinations and generally maneuvering which the hoplites have to do
a bit of as part of a pod including more light troops (at least to
stay out of the way at critical moments). In terms of morale, if
things go wrong and an LC routs I do not my hoplites blowing waver
tests (this from someone who runs rear-rank C's for his knights).

I guess it is the combination of being able to put the 1 A class
element that makes the difference here for me. That often means
willing B checks versus uneasy C checks - basically a hop of two
grades for the price of 1.25. And I expect them to be operating in a
more fluid situation with all their support troops so they might
even have to counter to make a turn or withdraw a bit of a distance
or something.

But taking them as C class probably is fine too. I just went for the
all-Spartan because I like Spartans which is what it really boils
down to.

> Of course, since Spartans didn't adopt the lambda shield design
until
> ~424BC, I may just try an early all Spartan, all the time army.
There's
> just something appealing about 140 Spartans, half HI, half MI,
advancing up
> the table and never ever going away. You do end up needing to use
the LI to
> clear terrain though.

I would avoid the HI like a plague. It makes those wonderful cheap
hoplite units into point drains - and for me at least this army
needs its full supporting cast. Besides Spartans just aren't at home
unless they can be lording it over the rest of their army!

> The primary problem I've found is initiative. Because the core of
the army
> is close order infantry, the enemy generally has control of where
and when
> the actual battle takes place and, by and large, the hoplites have
to react
> to what the enemy does. That, in my mind anyway, is the main
weakness.

I would agree if you let that happen. But I really think (hope?)
there is no reason with all the excellent light troops on this list
that you need to permit it.

Regarding your list - I will wait for one of the gurus to look at
it. I hope they will and be able to provide some constructive
comments on a few tweaks without making you re-paint all your nice
army!

Just an overall I think there are a few places you are spending
points for really nothing except aesthetics, and a few more for
irregular command factors I am not sure you need. I would say, leave
the army with its current look but play the units and point them to
give you a better chance because the hoplites need every little bit
of wily advantage they can muster. And, once again, take all the
Thessalian LC and see if it opens up your game.

Places to look at, in no particular order:
1. All-A Spartans versus 1A/3B (same game effect for 12 fewer points)
2. Rear-rank shields on LI (although I saw what you said I'd still
look at this) and shields at all on the Cretans
3. Irreg command factors on tiny 3-4E units of LI

I better let someone better comment on your tactical plan as it
relates to the list, but I would really look hard, once again, at
finding a way to take more good LC with free capabilities and open
your game up a bit. At least try it a few times and maybe you will
like it?

But underlying all this is that it is great you have taken this upon
yourself!

[Mark Mallard]

In a message dated 6/4/04 8:49:06 PM GMT Daylight Time, mwbard@...
writes:

I decided to post this because, while all are exhausted from army
> lists from me, this is one that is generally viewed as non-
> competitive which I don't see as deserving _all_ the bad rep it
> gets. Which is not to say it would be easy to play still.

At least I'm not alone...

> Although it will soon be superceded I took the effort to come up
> with something I might like using the old NASAMW Later Hoplite Greek
> list, choosing the middle period Spartans as a matter of personal
> preference.
>
> Lots to work out yet but the basis is something like the following.
>
> core hoplites (3-8 units, 434-904 points):
> 1x Spartan C-in-C/Lakonian Perioikoi 4E Reg 1A/3B MI LTS,Sh @178
> 2x Spartan Sub-General/Lakonian Perioikoi 4E Reg 1A/3B MI LTS,Sh @128
> 0-5x Spartiates/Lakonian Perioikoi 4E Reg 1A/3B MI LTS,Sh @94

I usually run my Spartans in blocks of 16. Out of curiosity, why aren't you
going for As in the full front rank? You don't get any waver check bonuses
but they don't need to be supported which makes them perfect for anchoring
the ends of a line in case you don't have the terrain.

> core light or mounted support troops (10-11 units, 426-481 points):
> 1x Thessalian Cavalry 2E RegB HC/MC JLS @58 (list-rule equivalent
> fight 1.5 ranks)
> 4x Thessalian Cavalry 2E RegB LC JLS @38 (list-rule equivalent fight
> 1.5 ranks)

I do the same with the LC (though I take a bit less) and us the rest of the
Thessalian HC to go with the Syracusan sub-general. Note that I tossed Jon
an e-mail before Cold Wars and was told that I could upgrade the Syracusan
Ally general's direct bodyguard (those on the same base) to Bs. Currently I
take 3 blocks of Thessalian LC to allow for more auxiliaries. Maybe I take
too many?

> 1x Archers 10E IrrC LI B,Sh/B @75
> 0-1x Slingers 6E IrrC LI S,Sh/S @55
> 1x Psiloi 10E IrrC LI JLS,Sh/JLS @75
> 3x Cretan Archers 2E RegC LI B @22

I don't take any archers, but do take 3 blocks of 2 element cretans
(shielded). These I almost always force march to deny table to the enemy.
Being shielded Reg Cs they're cheap but annoying. I've been finding that
large blocks of LI JLS Sh are too restrictive and have downgraded them to
the current level of 4 element blocks. It seems that when I need them to
fall back through the hoplites, I never have the prompt points, or they fail
their waver checks for being charged. The problem is that with JLS they
only have a range of 40 paces which means that cavalry can hit them when
required, and force the waver check. If they pass they can generally take a
LC charge, but usually I have them evade. Maybe I should let them stand
more often? My current thought is to keep them in front of alternating
hoplite blocks to disrupt the enemy line so that I can concentrate hoplites
on an unsupported point. In recent test games I've found that a single
block of 6 elements of Sl is too unwieldy - I'm going to try 2 blocks of 3
elements and hide them in woods to pop out and hurt (hopefully) enemy
cavalry.

> option #1 - Thracian and Paphlagonian troops (7 units, 493 points)
> 1x Thracian Cavalry 2E IrrB LC JLS @45 (list-rule equivalent fight
> 1.5 ranks)
> 2x Thracian Peltasts 6E IrrC LMI 2HCW,JLS/JLS @88
> 2x Paphlagonian Cavalry 4E IrrC LC JLS @57
> 2x Paphlagonian Foot 6E IrrC LMI JLS,Sh @79

I do option 2, so no experience about this though I have played around with
the Thracians. In fact I want to make a block as a possible replacement for
the Syracusans, using the Thracians to clear woods I cleverly place on the
flanks. The Paphlagonian foot gives good rough terrain troops so I don't
see a problem here. My thought is to run the Thracians in blocks of 2
elements, front element with 2HCW and toss them into woods, possibly with
light infantry support, and either clear woods of enemies, or hit opportune
enemy flanks.

> option #2 - Syracusan allied command (1 staff plus 4 units, 383
> points):
> 1x Syracusan Ally-General 1E RegC HC JLS @91
> 2x Syracusan Gauls 4E IrrA LMI JLS,Sh @85
> 2x Syracusan Spaniards 4E IrrC LMI HTW,Sh @61

I take much closer to the maximums the Syracuse option allows. Either 2 or
3 2 element Gaul blocks to skulk in woods and either clear them, or hit
enemy flanks if an opportune moment occurs, and generally 4 2 element blocks
of Spaniards to act as a second punch to hoplite assaults on enemy infantry
blocks (hoplites contract to 2 elements wide, 3 figures deep and charge,
next bound the Spaniards charge through the convenient gap for a second
punch).

> There might actually be quite a few things to like about this list
> that should encourage a hoplite player.
>
> 1. The cavalry, while completely shieldless, at least can be
> configured with a mixture of good-morale regulars and irregulars to
> be largely capable of fight in 1.5 ranks with JLS, making it
> potentially a decent skirmish force I think. If you get toe to toe
> with horse archers they will be shieldess shooting too and
> regularity and morale may help. If you get into HtH with enemy LC/LI
> the JLS in 1.5 ranks will a huge plus, probably offsetting the lack
> of shields. So I am suprised to find this a potential strength. We
> will see if this is diminished somewhat under ClassWar when the
> actual list rule and troop mixture may be less universal.

The problem I've run into is that enemy bow armed LC rip them apart in
shooting. You have to play them REALLY cautiously to keep them alive to do
their job and delay the enemy, but as long as you avoid mass bow fire they
work fairly well. The one two-element unit of HC, JLS I have I use as a
reserve on the attack flank to plug holes, hit opportune enemy units if
needed, and rally units.

> 2. The light infantry is terrific in this army. You get an excellent
> mixture of cheap small regular units and bulky irregulars with half-
> shields which is an ideal combination. Some jav troops and some long-
> range missile troops, including an option for slingers which
> provides a bit of impact against heavier armor types. This is
> another suprising feature of the army which could actually be
> unequivocally stated as a standout strength.

I've found that mass LI is a trap. I used to field 32 elements of JLS, Sh
(in 4 groups of 8 elements each) but I found them too unwieldy and more
often than not they caused problems for my hoplite line. I've also found
that you really need to equip them with shields as numerous times I'veneeded
to expand them into a single line to delay large enemy blocks. The slingers
I'm still working with, and the Cretans are definitely worth it. More bow
is an option, but I'm going to hold off painting them until the final list
is out so I don't end up with too many of them.

> 3. The terrain troops are not the absolute best but depending how
> they are configured they range from perfectly acceptable to actually
> pretty good. At any rate certainly no need to fear having a large
> amount of bad going on the battlefield.

The best terrain choices I've found so far are 4 woods. With 4 choices you
should be able to put one near the middle of the map and protect a flank.
Then one command (the small one) with hold orders anchors itself to my edge
of the table and slowly moves forward, while the attack command (the big
one) agressively moves towards the enemy. The ideal case if to have a line
of woods going down the majority of the centre of the table with celts
running through it making sure there are no surprises, while the hoplite
line advances in an arc anchored with the forest at one flank, and my long
table edge at the other.

> 4. The hoplites are at least rock-solid in morale and not too
> terribly expensive as MI. They are not going to run down enemy
> skirmishers. They are not ging to be happy facing Moogs. But at
> least most troops are perhaps not going to make much of an impact on
> them and there may be some tactical chances to facilitate their use
> in combination with the excellent LI this army has.

It's odd that you take an entirely Spartan army. I take some Spartans (and
may eventually take none when I get enough hoplites painted) and find that
Cs work fine as long as the enemy doesn't start breaking hoplite units
(something they have to work for in general). It makes my army larger in
models, but it tends to collapse faster if things go wrong. The all Spartan
army simply doesn't go away, but you have less figures. Currently, I
believe that the more figures is the better way to go.

Of course, since Spartans didn't adopt the lambda shield design until
~424BC, I may just try an early all Spartan, all the time army. There's
just something appealing about 140 Spartans, half HI, half MI, advancing up
the table and never ever going away. You do end up needing to use the LI to
clear terrain though.

> Overall I do not find this a bad army at all, just one like Romans
> that has suffered from an emphasis on CO foot being unable to run
> down enemy skirmish troops and being hard to set up with low
> movement rates for tactical combinations. But this army has some
> other features that may make it possible to releive these
> difficulties somewhat.
>
> There are a huge number of cheap units available - so many I wonder
> if I added up the costs correctly (but I am more accustomed to
> medieval numbers). With a good amount of terrain to cut the board
> down this could be actually a very tough army.

The primary problem I've found is initiative. Because the core of the army
is close order infantry, the enemy generally has control of where and when
the actual battle takes place and, by and large, the hoplites have to react
to what the enemy does. That, in my mind anyway, is the main weakness.

Finally, for the amusement of all (and inviting comments), here is the
current 1600pt list I'm using (with annotated comments). Note that I centre
mine around the Peleponesian War which is where all the mercenaries came
from.

Spartan Command (CinC)
4 elements MI, LTS, Sh Reg A Spartiates, including Spartan general. 190pts
6 elements MI, LTS, Sh Reg C Allied Hoplites. 106pts
6 elements MI, LTS, Sh Reg C Allied Hoplites. 106pts
2 elements LMI, HTW, Sh Irreg C Syracusan Spaniards. 43pts
4 elements LI JLS, Sh Irreg C Javelinmen. 49pts
2 elements LI B, Sh Reg C Cretans. 26pts
2 elements LC JLS Reg B Thessalian. 38pts

The close order infantry in this command is designed to anchor one side but
not to engage the enemy (or act as a reserve in case of a break through.
Generally the Spartans will be on the far end, and one hoplite block
adjacent, with the second block in reserve to either plug a hole as the line
advances, or plug a hole in case of a penetration in the attack command
(gotta love march moves). The Spaniards remain close behind the hoplite
line to act as a punch in case of an assault (the hoplite block contracts to
2 elements wide, 3 deep, and the Spaniards charge through the gap next turn.
If woods existed on the flank defended by this command, the Spaniards would
either ambush in it, or move through it. The LI JLS Sh remain in a single
rank in front of the two forward hoplite units looking for opportunities to
hurt enemy probes, or delay the charge to contact by evading behind the
hoplite line. The Cretans force march forward to deny the enemy table space
and delay their attack as long as possible. The LC marches behind them to
delay far flank enemy movements.

Syracusan Ally Command (Ally)
1 element - Syracusan Ally General + 2 Syracusan HC Bodyguard, JLS, Reg B; 1
element Reg C Syracusan HC. 117pts
4 elements MI LTS, Sh Reg A Spartiates. 106pts
6 elements MI LTS, Sh Reg C Mercenary Hoplites. 106pts
6 elements MI LTS, Sh Reg C Mercenary Hoplites. 106pts
6 elements MI LTS, Sh Reg C Mercenary Hoplites. 106pts
2 elements LMI HTW, Sh Irreg C Spaniards. 43pts
2 elements LMI HTW, Sh Irreg C Spaniards. 43pts
2 elements LMI HTW, Sh Irreg C Spaniards. 43pts
2 elements LMI JLS, Sh Irreg A Gauls. 55pts
2 elements LMI JLS, Sh Irreg A Gauls. 55pts
3 elements LI Sl, Sh Irreg C Slingers. 43pts
3 elements LI Sl, Sh Irreg C Slingers. 43pts
4 elements LI JLS, Sh Irreg C Javelinmen. 49pts
2 elements LI B, Sh Reg C Cretans. 26pts
2 elements LI B, Sh Reg C Cretans. 26pts
2 elements LC JLS Reg B Thessalian. 38pts
2 elements LC JLS Reg B Thessalian. 38pts

Yes, it is an ally general and yes there is a 1 in 36 chance of them
becoming unreliable. I'm willing to accept that due to the odds, due to the
fact that other than an all Spartan army you have to take nothing but ally
generals, and the fact that I need the cavalry to support the attack and to
rally troops. I will try switching generals between the two commands and
that may work though I won't be able to rally LC and LI bodies if required.

As to the rest, the 3 Mercenary hoplite units form the main attack line,
with the Spartans behind the far end of the line as a reserve. The
Spaniards follow close behind each mercenary block so that when combat
occurs, the hoplite block can contract frontage (before the charge) and the
Spaniards can then charge in next bound. The Gauls lurk around the woods
which is hopefully protecting the flank of the advance. The slingers lurk
either behind the hoplite line to lunge forward and hit enemy cavalary units
that move too close, or sneak around in woods looking for opportune flank
targets for shooting hit and runs. The Javelinmen advance in one block in
front of the centre hoplite unit so that the flank units can contact
isolated enemy blocks as the LI block their companions. Against cavalry
they would be single rank to delay the enemy, and shoot if the chance comes.
The Cretans force march to claim table space. The LC either defend the
flank against enemy penetrations if there is no defensive terrain, or march
over to join the LC on the other flank to delay the enemy. If the enemy has
a large cavalry concentration they would skirmish with that to delay it.

Comments? Thoughts?

Michael Bard
That Greek Hoplite Guy



I am not familiar with the list used, but you do seem to have a lot of
units, especially irregulars. Are you allowed that many command factors.

I have never considered fielding irregulars in such small units.

I have 25mm greeks, but no 25mm opponents (plenty of 15mm opponents). I have
some extra thracians i think. Maybe i will split them into two armies just
to give them a run out sometime.

mark mallard (uk)


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Syracusan Ally Command (Ally)
1 element - Syracusan Ally General + 2 Syracusan HC Bodyguard, JLS, Reg B; 1
element Reg C Syracusan HC. 117pts
4 elements MI LTS, Sh Reg A Spartiates. 106pts



Comments? Thoughts?

Michael Bard
That Greek Hoplite Guy

I don't really know much about Hoplite lists, but would A class Spartiates
fight under an Ally General?

Steve


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Mike Bard]

[hangs head in shame]

Yea, it's a tactical tournament decision.

Michael Bard
That still embarassed Greek Hoplite Guy


>
> Syracusan Ally Command (Ally)
> 1 element - Syracusan Ally General + 2 Syracusan HC Bodyguard, JLS, Reg
B; 1
> element Reg C Syracusan HC. 117pts
> 4 elements MI LTS, Sh Reg A Spartiates. 106pts
>
> I don't really know much about Hoplite lists, but would A class Spartiates
> fight under an Ally General?
>
> Steve

In a message dated 08/06/2004 17:57:49 GMT Daylight Time, mwbard@...
writes:

>Yea, it's a tactical tournament decision.



Go tell it to the Spartans .


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