Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

After taking a break from wargaming for a number of years, in part
due to personal circumstances, in part due to a feeling of
dissatisfaction with DBM - style rules, I have returned to the fold,
fuelled, in part, the the excellant range of figures from Xyston.

Since returning, I have ordered and read a number of different rules
sets and then saw the adverts for Warrior. As I was a big fan of WRG
7th I thought I'd take a look at the messages on this group before
taking the plunge. However, before parting with my hard-earned money
on yet another set of ancient rules I thought I would pose a
question to all you knowlegdable readers.

One of my beefs with WRG 7th was the ineffectiveness of Hoplites.
This troop type, which dominated the Mediterranean for nearly 350
years was virtually useless in 7th edition - couldn't stand up to
pikes, ever, and beatable by peltasts. Has this situation changed
with Warrior?

Thanks and your comments are much appreciated.

R.K.H.

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 5/27/2004 10:25:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
rkh_law@... writes:

> One of my beefs with WRG 7th was the ineffectiveness of Hoplites.
> This troop type, which dominated the Mediterranean for nearly 350
> years was virtually useless in 7th edition - couldn't stand up to
> pikes, ever, and beatable by peltasts. Has this situation
> changed
> with Warrior?
>
> Thanks and your comments are much appreciated.
>
> R.K.H.>>

RKH

In the later versions of 7th, probably after the time you played it, on which
the Warrior engine is based, those issues were substantially fixed. Close order
LTS fight two ranks when charging, so peltasts lose to them and LTS negates the
-2 pikes give out. They will still lose when charged by a deeper mass of pike,
but then that is history....

Also, our last list book, Classical Warrior, which contains the hoplite lists
and has not yet been published. I anticipate further goodies to better reflect
certain classical armies abilities but as we are deep into Oriental Warrior have
no specifics for you yet.

Jon
In addition, our last list book is Classical Warrior

[Mike Bard]

From playing with the current list, I've found that as basic infantry they
work well within period but...

Most competition armies are medieval armies which means that, invariable,
their scum infantry are better than your hoplites. Either they can charge
impetuously with their spears and beat you, or they have javelins, or HTW,
or 2HCT, or +JLS, or something else to make them better. The other
competition problem is the fact that a hoplite army is really just hoplites.
Missile armies (again most medieval armies), particular ones consisting of
primarily missile troops, will just kill you unless they do something really
bad. All the cavalry moves up to a target unit and start firing. If you
charge, they evade (they're all in skirmish). If you stand there,
eventually they roll an up 3 disordering the hoplites. Then they lower
their lance and its all over.

So, for the amusement of the list, here is the official M Bard wish list of
hoplite improvements:

1. Always fight in two ranks of spear.
2. Can charge impetuously as though irregular.
3. Big shield ups their armour class by 1 (unarmoured hoplites are HI,
armoured hoplites are EHI).
4. They can move and charge 120 paces (Marathon).
5. Their shields count as Pavises against missile fire.
6. Their shields and spear wall count as an obstacle against charge by
mounted or wheeled.
7. They always force their enemy to recoil unless they lose (shoulder to the
shield and shove!)
8. If the sun is in front of them, the flash of light from their polished
shields causes enemy archers to be affected as though from glare.
9. They always get +1 to all dice roll as they won't attack until the omens
are favourable.

Other suggestions are welcome...

Michael Bard
That Greek Hoplite Guy

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 5/27/2004 19:06:52 Central Daylight Time,
mwbard@... writes:

Most competition armies are medieval armies which means that, invariable,
their scum infantry are better than your hoplites.
This is, in fact, not the case. It may be locally to you, I do not know,
but across recorded tourney results of the past three years, it is not true
that the majority of competition armies are medieval.
The 25mm teams at cold wars did have a high percentage (but not a majority),
but as our last released book was Feudal Warrior, 'bubbles' like that are to
be expected.
J


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks very much for the feedback, guys. I've been persuaded to give
Warrior a try.

I'm not a competition gamer, never have been, and am fortunate
enough to be able to field a number of historical adversaries for
the Classical/Hellanistic period.

While I wouldn't normally expect a hoplite phalanx to defeat a pike
phalanx on level ground, I would expect the hoplites to give the
pike some difficulty. As you may recall from pre-amendment
(apparently) 7th ed., hoplites would usually rout after the first
round of melee - something not supported by the sources.

Anyway, thanks again.

R.K.H.

[Chris Bump]

I do not have a Greek or hoplite army. I have no army that has any hoplites in
it, but I do like some of these proposed list rules.

In particular, I like 1,3,4,5. There are certainly examples of their being
impervious to bow fire and the hoplon should receive some tactical benefit. Of
course my preferences are worth exactly what you paid for them.
Chris
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Bard
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2004 5:05 PM
Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] Hoplites in Warrior


From playing with the current list, I've found that as basic infantry they
work well within period but...

Most competition armies are medieval armies which means that, invariable,
their scum infantry are better than your hoplites. Either they can charge
impetuously with their spears and beat you, or they have javelins, or HTW,
or 2HCT, or +JLS, or something else to make them better. The other
competition problem is the fact that a hoplite army is really just hoplites.
Missile armies (again most medieval armies), particular ones consisting of
primarily missile troops, will just kill you unless they do something really
bad. All the cavalry moves up to a target unit and start firing. If you
charge, they evade (they're all in skirmish). If you stand there,
eventually they roll an up 3 disordering the hoplites. Then they lower
their lance and its all over.

So, for the amusement of the list, here is the official M Bard wish list of
hoplite improvements:

1. Always fight in two ranks of spear.
2. Can charge impetuously as though irregular.
3. Big shield ups their armour class by 1 (unarmoured hoplites are HI,
armoured hoplites are EHI).
4. They can move and charge 120 paces (Marathon).
5. Their shields count as Pavises against missile fire.
6. Their shields and spear wall count as an obstacle against charge by
mounted or wheeled.
7. They always force their enemy to recoil unless they lose (shoulder to the
shield and shove!)
8. If the sun is in front of them, the flash of light from their polished
shields causes enemy archers to be affected as though from glare.
9. They always get +1 to all dice roll as they won't attack until the omens
are favourable.

Other suggestions are welcome...

Michael Bard
That Greek Hoplite Guy





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Mark Stone]

Quoting "WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com" <WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com>:

> Message: 23
> Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 18:05:24 -0400
> From: "Michael Bard" <mwbard@...>
> Subject: Re: Hoplites in Warrior
>
> Most competition armies are medieval armies which means that, invariable,
> their scum infantry are better than your hoplites. Either they can charge
> impetuously with their spears and beat you, or they have javelins, or HTW,
> or 2HCT, or +JLS, or something else to make them better.

Not to beat up on you personally, Michael, but this kind of thinking just drives
me crazy. I spend very little time thinking about what troop types beat what
troop types in a head to head fight, as I think such thinking has very little
to do with the outcome of a game. Yes, lots of scum Medieval infantry will beat
regular LTS-armed foot at contact. No, it will not rout regular LTS-armed foot
at contact. Once you've thought it through that far, everything else becomes a
question of tactics, combined arms, and generalship.

My regular LTS guys may be losing to irregular and thus impetuous foot, but the
irregular foot is taking CPF at 2-for-1. So I can lose, and still win in the
long run -- depending on other tactical considerations.

A large block of 24 or 32 figures of LTS guys will take a long time and
considerable time to kill, regardless of what is attacking it. A small unit of
8 LTS guys, especially regular, is a nasty threat to slip into a gap and/or
find room for a flank charge. A small unit may also absorb an impetuous foot
charge so that my mounted can, next bound, charge the no-longer impetuous foot
and beat them. And so on.

There's nothing inherently bad about LTS troops. They have their uses. The key
is to balance unit sizes, unit functions, and find ways to get the LTS guys
working effectively with whatever else your army has.

> The other
> competition problem is the fact that a hoplite army is really just hoplites.
> Missile armies (again most medieval armies), particular ones consisting of
> primarily missile troops, will just kill you unless they do something really
> bad. All the cavalry moves up to a target unit and start firing. If you
> charge, they evade (they're all in skirmish). If you stand there,
> eventually they roll an up 3 disordering the hoplites. Then they lower
> their lance and its all over.

While I've long argued that missile fire is disproportionately powerful in
Warrior, I don't see the problem here. Close order foot is generally pretty
durable in the face of enemy shooting, getting occaisionally halted but seldom
disordered. If you have smaller units interspersed in (or just behind) your
line along with bigger line units, then the smaller units should be able to
chase off skirmishers and the bigger units should preclude the possibility of
missile units sitting in front of you not in skirmish. You may not win the
battle in a place where you are facing down a line of skirmishers, but you
shouldn't lose it either. And an up 3 shooting roll is a 1 in 216 chance. Even
given a couple dozen shooting rolls in a game, you should see such an outcome
against you maybe once in a tournament weekend.

Now, having expended all this effort to say that LTS troops are basically fine
as is, I do agree that the Hoplites were special, and that should be reflected
in list rules. They were the historical peak of this particular troop type, and
should therefore in some way be better than other LTS-armed foot. Some, but not
all, of the suggestions below are appealing.

>
> So, for the amusement of the list, here is the official M Bard wish list of
> hoplite improvements:
>
> 1. Always fight in two ranks of spear.

That would put them on a par with the Scots. Makes sense to me.

> 2. Can charge impetuously as though irregular.

Well, no. Perhaps something like the Roman rule: can charge or counter-charge
even when being charged impetuously and/or by mounted.

> 3. Big shield ups their armour class by 1 (unarmoured hoplites are HI,
> armoured hoplites are EHI).

No, I think there's a better way to handle this.

> 4. They can move and charge 120 paces (Marathon).

No. This is a bigger issue about how movement is handled for close order foot
that Jon has already decided on.

> 5. Their shields count as Pavises against missile fire.

I actually like this a lot. A list rule allowing Hoplite shields to count as
shields in hand-to-hand and pavise vs. missile fire makes enormous sense, and
also seems to fit pretty well within play balance considerations.

> 6. Their shields and spear wall count as an obstacle against charge by
> mounted or wheeled.

No. That's what the -2 for facing LTS is for (and the +1 for facing impetuous
mounted charge).

> 7. They always force their enemy to recoil unless they lose (shoulder to the
> shield and shove!)

No. Impractical in combination with other game mechanics.

> 8. If the sun is in front of them, the flash of light from their polished
> shields causes enemy archers to be affected as though from glare.

And as we all know, tournament battles appear to only take place on weatherless,
flat, featureless plains, with enough ambient light to see clearly, but no
apparent source of said ambient light....

> 9. They always get +1 to all dice roll as they won't attack until the omens
> are favourable.

Well, you can dream.


-Mark Stone

[Mike Bard]

I also apologize. I've been getting a bit frustrated with hoplites recently
(six contacts, all in my favour, EVERY contact I roll down 3 (or 4) and he
rolls up 3 (or 2)) and I think that spilled over.

Some clarifications:

Medieval Infantry:
- virtually all that I encountered at Cold Wars were armed with spears and
JLS, and all were irregular. Thus I couldn't charge, only got half the
second rank, and he had an additional +1. It is quite possible it's
atypcial, and since it's out of period I'm not worried about it. A little
frustrated, but not worried in terms of the game system.

Mounted Bow:
- An example of this would be some of the Byzantine armies which can consist
of nothing but LC, HC, and HK, all armed with B and L. The LC shuts down
the flanks of the hoplite line, and the HC/HK move up at the centre in a
dense block and shoot a single target. Everything is in skirmish formation.
If the Hoplites charge, the cavalry evade. LI with JLS are always out of
range (or virtually always -- you could march them up through the hoplite
line, but 3-4 JLS are not going to hurt 6 cavalry figures (since he has as
much frontage as you do with multiple units. You shoot, maybe get lucky and
hurt something, he then charges and drives you off (and there is always the
waver test.)). Eventually the mass bowfire rolls up 3, then hoplites are
disordered, they're charged with lance, broken, and cavalry starts charging
into hoplite flanks...

The only solutions I've thought of so far for this are to either have 2
ranks of hoplite, let the front rank die, break everything up with As so you
should past all the waver checks, and then charge the break through with A
hoplites, or use a Syracuse/Phokian army with artillery and shoot them at
range. I'm going to try 12 slingers (the maximum) in my next game and see
how they help.

Michael Bard
That Greek Hoplite Guy

P.S. The list of hoplite special rules was meant to be humour, though if any
are implemented I won't complain (although there should be a point increase
to make up for the improved capabilities).

[John Murphy]

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Bard" <mwbard@r...>
wrote:
> I also apologize.

Aw, c'mon, your post was about the funniest on this list in recent
memory. I loved it.

On the medieval foot - I'd try this one with hoplites except against
moog-ish. Lots of times even Varangians and such get beat by stinkin
enemy foot who simply survive long enough to inflict 7 CPF and
exhaust them. If he's impet LTS you get your -2 (and he does not).
Just survive the first bound and he's probably tired. Another two
bounds and you maybe beat him through exhaustion.

On the mounted bows - not being able to replace LI in HtH with
hoplites kind of messes up my initial thought but you might still be
able to angle your LI fire zones to put enough on a HC unit to force
a charge, then evade thru your hoplites who get hit by a 2E HC unit
they might handle?

I dunno, just a thought.

[Bill Chriss]

>
> The only solutions I've thought of so far for this are to either
have 2
> ranks of hoplite, let the front rank die, break everything up with
As so you
> should past all the waver checks, and then charge the break
through with A
> hoplites, or use a Syracuse/Phokian army with artillery and shoot
them at
> range. I'm going to try 12 slingers (the maximum) in my next game
and see
> how they help.
>
> Michael Bard
> That Greek Hoplite Guy
>



Mike,

After playing Hoplites and Macedonian pikes in Warrior and TOG, I
offer the following advice, but remember you're dealing with a
historian who plays for that and has never won a tournament any
time, anywhere. First, if you've got a reg MI/HI army, you've got to
do two things: 1. plant terrain to cut down table width and try to
insulate most of one flank; and 2. either forced march your MI/HI to
table center, or use Forced marching LI/LC to make sure you get
across table center by end of bound 1. Also, think about flank
marching a command. Then just PUSH, until the barbarian either fihts
you or runs out of room to run (Also, think about devising
strategies solely to take the other guy's camp--lots of points
there!) Above all, remain wily.


Greek

[Ewan McNay]

On Fri, 28 May 2004, Michael Bard wrote:
> Medieval Infantry:
> - virtually all that I encountered at Cold Wars were armed with spears and
> JLS, and all were irregular. Thus I couldn't charge, only got half the
> second rank, and he had an additional +1. It is quite possible it's
> atypcial, and since it's out of period I'm not worried about it. A little
> frustrated, but not worried in terms of the game system.

I understand the frustration. As it happens, I think this is atypical -
double armed LTS, JLS close order are reasonably rare, although the loose
order HTW, JLS guys are becoming more popular. I do think that part of
the solution is hoplite mass and regularity; it's possible that against
the latter, for instance, you'll lose the first three or four rounds but
that he'll then blow up because of taking double CPF on a smaller unit.

> Mounted Bow:
> - An example of this would be some of the Byzantine armies which can consist
> of nothing but LC, HC, and HK, all armed with B and L. The LC shuts down
> the flanks of the hoplite line, and the HC/HK move up at the centre in a
> dense block and shoot a single target. Everything is in skirmish formation.
> If the Hoplites charge, the cavalry evade. LI with JLS are always out of
> range (or virtually always -- you could march them up through the hoplite
> line, but 3-4 JLS are not going to hurt 6 cavalry figures (since he has as
> much frontage as you do with multiple units. You shoot, maybe get lucky and
> hurt something, he then charges and drives you off (and there is always the
> waver test.)). Eventually the mass bowfire rolls up 3, then hoplites are
> disordered, they're charged with lance, broken, and cavalry starts charging
> into hoplite flanks...

The odds on a +3 are only 1 in 36, unless I've missed something, but even
then pretty rare. And unlikely to happen in a given battle given that (i)
if he's at close range, you can charge him, (ii) he'll get tired after 5
shots, (iii) he's unlikely to have enough troops to do this to more than
1, maybe 2, hoplite units, who can then go deep to become more resilient.

And of course any K present can't charge; not only that but even if the HC
*do* come in, this is when some small unit comes out and into their flank
- the HC are not going to rout you on contact, likely, unless everything
in the army is focussing on that one unit (in which case, allow it to beat
up, then close ranks behind it and kill it all!)

> The only solutions I've thought of so far for this are to either have 2
> ranks of hoplite, let the front rank die, break everything up with As so you
> should past all the waver checks, and then charge the break through with A
> hoplites, or use a Syracuse/Phokian army with artillery and shoot them at
> range. I'm going to try 12 slingers (the maximum) in my next game and see
> how they help.

The former works well with small units of As - the Viking approach. I
don't use Art enough to know how viable it would be.