Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

Anyone figure out how to run an army with lots of EHC and HC with only
JLS?
I mean lots of them....maybe half the 1600pt army.

I'm building a Late Achaemenid Persian army and I'm hoping for some
advice. I think that it is possible to make an army that looks like a
Persian army, and maybe even win sometimes.

Generally the advice I get on shieldless HC JLS (not fighting
rank+1/2) is "take as few as possible, make them Reg's and skirmish or
hide. Then take Saka merc's instead."
Not good enough.
I want to attack. The persians couldn't get enough of these guys for
some reason. They always attacked, and I'm determined to make'em work.

So HC (and some EHC) that can be regular or irregular, C's and B's.
1/2 of the regulars can carry shields. All are armed with JLS only.
I'm looking for dirty tricks, combo-tactics and positioning, and
anything else helpful. I don't go to tournaments much, so don't worry.
Someone out there has made this work... I hope you have Email!

Thank you, gentlemen.

Noel.

[Derek Downs]

In a message dated 11/16/2005 9:55:33 PM Eastern Standard Time,
agrianian@... writes:
Anyone figure out how to run an army with lots of EHC and HC with only
JLS?
I mean lots of them....maybe half the 1600pt army
Play Warrior at Derekcon's where they are allowed to fight rank and a half.

Derekcus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Frank Gilson]

You seek to undertake a difficult challenge...

Some key points:
1) You can never frontally charge steady spearmen or pikemen.
So, look for flanks, envelop, attempt to disorder such foot, rout a
unit near them so they test and fail, then charge in.

2) You can not oppose elephants.
If you have to stick some cav in front of enemy elephants, it needs
to be skirmishing and throwing javelins...so your EHC can never be
near enemy elephants.

3) You are vulnerable to enemy missile power.
Screen enemy shooters with LI, attack them with your melee infantry.

You need to get your cav to work in combined groups with your LI and
LC to attack enemy LC, LI, and non-spear armed loose order infantry.

When opposing enemy cavalry that is more heavily armored, or fights
in 1.5 ranks, you need to make sure it is disordered and tired by
shooting at it...so oppose such with your LI and LC first.

Prepare to have your EHC and HC in long long fights against non-
shaken non-light troops because they won't rout anything at contact.

Thus, consider larger units than we normally see for cavalry.

Frank

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "Noel White" <agrianian@y...>
wrote:
>
> Anyone figure out how to run an army with lots of EHC and HC with
only
> JLS?
> I mean lots of them....maybe half the 1600pt army.
>
> I'm building a Late Achaemenid Persian army and I'm hoping for some
> advice. I think that it is possible to make an army that looks
like a
> Persian army, and maybe even win sometimes.
>
> Generally the advice I get on shieldless HC JLS (not fighting
> rank+1/2) is "take as few as possible, make them Reg's and
skirmish or
> hide. Then take Saka merc's instead."
> Not good enough.
> I want to attack. The persians couldn't get enough of these guys
for
> some reason. They always attacked, and I'm determined to make'em
work.
>
> So HC (and some EHC) that can be regular or irregular, C's and B's.
> 1/2 of the regulars can carry shields. All are armed with JLS
only.
> I'm looking for dirty tricks, combo-tactics and positioning, and
> anything else helpful. I don't go to tournaments much, so don't
worry.
> Someone out there has made this work... I hope you have Email!
>
> Thank you, gentlemen.
>
> Noel.
>

[joncleaves]

Hmmm. I have a different take.

The LAP list comes with a smorgasbord of cheap LI options and some useful LC.
If you want to win with this list, you have to become the master of light troops
and make the best of the mix you can have. Frank's comment 1) is right on.

You do have things that can oppose elephants - I think what Frank is saying is
that those things would not be optimal in an open tourney. Screen his elephants
with LI.

I'm not sure about the vulnerability to missile power. You can have skirmishing
LI S/Sh and JLS/Sh, a -1 to be shot by B along with enough B-armed cav to split
fire and shoot back.

There are lancers in this list.

I'd take all the scythed chariots. I don't usually recommend those, but they
are quite complimentary to this list.

Take a look at the peltasts and iphicratids. Good stuff there. Look at what
they do within or coming out of a Village or down off a steep slope.

What we know as Persians settled there from central asia. Let go of this
western association with armor and return to your roots as the fast-moving
skirmishing cavalryman...

Jon

-----Original Message-----
From: Frank Gilson <franktrevorgilson@...>
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 17:13:29 -0000
Subject: [WarriorRules] Re: I need some advice on cavalry....


You seek to undertake a difficult challenge...

Some key points:
1) You can never frontally charge steady spearmen or pikemen.
So, look for flanks, envelop, attempt to disorder such foot, rout a
unit near them so they test and fail, then charge in.

2) You can not oppose elephants.
If you have to stick some cav in front of enemy elephants, it needs
to be skirmishing and throwing javelins...so your EHC can never be
near enemy elephants.

3) You are vulnerable to enemy missile power.
Screen enemy shooters with LI, attack them with your melee infantry.

You need to get your cav to work in combined groups with your LI and
LC to attack enemy LC, LI, and non-spear armed loose order infantry.

When opposing enemy cavalry that is more heavily armored, or fights
in 1.5 ranks, you need to make sure it is disordered and tired by
shooting at it...so oppose such with your LI and LC first.

Prepare to have your EHC and HC in long long fights against non-
shaken non-light troops because they won't rout anything at contact.

Thus, consider larger units than we normally see for cavalry.

Frank

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "Noel White" <agrianian@y...>
wrote:
>
> Anyone figure out how to run an army with lots of EHC and HC with
only
> JLS?
> I mean lots of them....maybe half the 1600pt army.
>
> I'm building a Late Achaemenid Persian army and I'm hoping for some
> advice. I think that it is possible to make an army that looks
like a
> Persian army, and maybe even win sometimes.
>
> Generally the advice I get on shieldless HC JLS (not fighting
> rank+1/2) is "take as few as possible, make them Reg's and
skirmish or
> hide. Then take Saka merc's instead."
> Not good enough.
> I want to attack. The persians couldn't get enough of these guys
for
> some reason. They always attacked, and I'm determined to make'em
work.
>
> So HC (and some EHC) that can be regular or irregular, C's and B's.
> 1/2 of the regulars can carry shields. All are armed with JLS
only.
> I'm looking for dirty tricks, combo-tactics and positioning, and
> anything else helpful. I don't go to tournaments much, so don't
worry.
> Someone out there has made this work... I hope you have Email!
>
> Thank you, gentlemen.
>
> Noel.
>








Yahoo! Groups Links






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Greetings Noel,
Its going to be tough because EHC doesn't skirmish and JLS doesn't
fight 1.5 ranks. Smaller units of regs to snipe at flanks. I dont
have the list handy so I cant recomend what other toys to take with
it. You will need to buy some screening light cav to tire out other
cav and protect yours.

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "Noel White" <agrianian@y...> wrote:
>
> Anyone figure out how to run an army with lots of EHC and HC with only
> JLS?
> I mean lots of them....maybe half the 1600pt army.
>
> I'm building a Late Achaemenid Persian army and I'm hoping for some
> advice. I think that it is possible to make an army that looks like a
> Persian army, and maybe even win sometimes.
>
> Generally the advice I get on shieldless HC JLS (not fighting
> rank+1/2) is "take as few as possible, make them Reg's and skirmish or
> hide. Then take Saka merc's instead."
> Not good enough.
> I want to attack. The persians couldn't get enough of these guys for
> some reason. They always attacked, and I'm determined to make'em work.
>
> So HC (and some EHC) that can be regular or irregular, C's and B's.
> 1/2 of the regulars can carry shields. All are armed with JLS only.
> I'm looking for dirty tricks, combo-tactics and positioning, and
> anything else helpful. I don't go to tournaments much, so don't worry.
> Someone out there has made this work... I hope you have Email!
>
> Thank you, gentlemen.
>
> Noel.
>

[Craig Scott]

Hello Noel,

First of all congratulations this is one the most beautiful armies
in the game and probably one of the most under estimated in our
hobby. That said, it also one of most difficult to handle with its
low morale and single rank JLS... fear not there are solutions. I
will write you directly via your e-mail this weekend. This army can
fight in any terrain and in ALL conditions as they had to do
historically from this vast empire... "Good thoughts, good deeds" (o:

Best regards,
Craig



--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "Noel White" <agrianian@y...>
wrote:
>
> Anyone figure out how to run an army with lots of EHC and HC with
only
> JLS?
> I mean lots of them....maybe half the 1600pt army.
>
> I'm building a Late Achaemenid Persian army and I'm hoping for some
> advice. I think that it is possible to make an army that looks
like a
> Persian army, and maybe even win sometimes.
>
> Generally the advice I get on shieldless HC JLS (not fighting
> rank+1/2) is "take as few as possible, make them Reg's and
skirmish or
> hide. Then take Saka merc's instead."
> Not good enough.
> I want to attack. The persians couldn't get enough of these guys
for
> some reason. They always attacked, and I'm determined to make'em
work.
>
> So HC (and some EHC) that can be regular or irregular, C's and B's.
> 1/2 of the regulars can carry shields. All are armed with JLS
only.
> I'm looking for dirty tricks, combo-tactics and positioning, and
> anything else helpful. I don't go to tournaments much, so don't
worry.
> Someone out there has made this work... I hope you have Email!
>
> Thank you, gentlemen.
>
> Noel.
>

Accept that EHC with JLS will not beat lancers. But keep in mind
that LAP has plenty of other things to do to distract lancers -
shoot them up with LI, B - run Scythed Chariots into them - ward
them off with hoplites - limit their scope with terrain - I think
Jon's statement about the charms of LAP is right.

Just make sure you take the maximum scythed chariots.

Adrian Williams

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "craigshar2" <craigshar@c...>
wrote:
>
> Hello Noel,
>
> First of all congratulations this is one the most beautiful armies
> in the game and probably one of the most under estimated in our
> hobby. That said, it also one of most difficult to handle with its
> low morale and single rank JLS... fear not there are solutions. I
> will write you directly via your e-mail this weekend. This army
can
> fight in any terrain and in ALL conditions as they had to do
> historically from this vast empire... "Good thoughts, good deeds"
(o:
>
> Best regards,
> Craig
>
>
>
> --- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "Noel White" <agrianian@y...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Anyone figure out how to run an army with lots of EHC and HC
with
> only
> > JLS?
> > I mean lots of them....maybe half the 1600pt army.
> >
> > I'm building a Late Achaemenid Persian army and I'm hoping for
some
> > advice. I think that it is possible to make an army that looks
> like a
> > Persian army, and maybe even win sometimes.
> >
> > Generally the advice I get on shieldless HC JLS (not fighting
> > rank+1/2) is "take as few as possible, make them Reg's and
> skirmish or
> > hide. Then take Saka merc's instead."
> > Not good enough.
> > I want to attack. The persians couldn't get enough of these guys
> for
> > some reason. They always attacked, and I'm determined to make'em
> work.
> >
> > So HC (and some EHC) that can be regular or irregular, C's and
B's.
> > 1/2 of the regulars can carry shields. All are armed with JLS
> only.
> > I'm looking for dirty tricks, combo-tactics and positioning, and
> > anything else helpful. I don't go to tournaments much, so don't
> worry.
> > Someone out there has made this work... I hope you have Email!
> >
> > Thank you, gentlemen.
> >
> > Noel.
> >
>

[Matt Kollmer]

Hey Noel
I think the strenght of the Persians is in their diversity others
have pointed out. They do have the troops to face all others if you
run them right in combined arms. My first thought was to do what
Frank said and run the Cav in bigger units. Which is one thing I've
done(but never actually having the Balls to field them myself! One
thing that impressed me fighting Greig Scott at Historicon(right
after fighting you AND besides how rediculously beautiful they are!)
was how they approached in a long single line exposing NO flanks
using sythed chariots in closed ranks with LI LMI HC an EHC. I was
never able to contact were I would like to, and also unable to avoid
contact were I'd like too.
Missle fire played alot in the battle too. The Persians can be quite
formidable in their numbers. Play the Chariots close to the
battleline and never allow a situation were you don't have both LI
and Cav nearby. Other than that I'd listen to everything others have
to say especially Mr Scott.(always does well with LAP!)Who better to
take advice from.
good luck
Matt




--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "Noel White" <agrianian@y...>
wrote:
>
> Anyone figure out how to run an army with lots of EHC and HC with
only
> JLS?
> I mean lots of them....maybe half the 1600pt army.
>
> I'm building a Late Achaemenid Persian army and I'm hoping for some
> advice. I think that it is possible to make an army that looks
like a
> Persian army, and maybe even win sometimes.
>
> Generally the advice I get on shieldless HC JLS (not fighting
> rank+1/2) is "take as few as possible, make them Reg's and
skirmish or
> hide. Then take Saka merc's instead."
> Not good enough.
> I want to attack. The persians couldn't get enough of these guys
for
> some reason. They always attacked, and I'm determined to make'em
work.
>
> So HC (and some EHC) that can be regular or irregular, C's and B's.
> 1/2 of the regulars can carry shields. All are armed with JLS
only.
> I'm looking for dirty tricks, combo-tactics and positioning, and
> anything else helpful. I don't go to tournaments much, so don't
worry.
> Someone out there has made this work... I hope you have Email!
>
> Thank you, gentlemen.
>
> Noel.
>

[Derek Downs]

Well, special list rules seem to be the thing now. So make the LAP play
historically correct and give them about 5000 points.

Derekcus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Don't forget that LAP  also get to use the Irreg Hoplite rules.  I'm pretty sure
HI LTS, JLS, Sh can take on an elephant.
Steve

On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 12:30:15 -0500, JonCleaves wrote
> Hmmm.  I have a different take.
>
> The LAP list comes with a smorgasbord of cheap LI options and some useful LC. 
If you want to win with this list, you have to become the master of light troops
and make the best of the mix you can have.  Frank's comment 1) is right on.
>
> You do have things that can oppose elephants - I think what Frank is saying is
that those things would not be optimal in an open tourney.  Screen his elephants
with LI.
>
> I'm not sure about the vulnerability to missile power.  You can have
skirmishing LI S/Sh and JLS/Sh, a -1 to be shot by B along with enough B-armed
cav to split fire and shoot back.
>
> There are lancers in this list.
>
> I'd take all the scythed chariots.  I don't usually recommend those, but they
are quite complimentary to this list.
>
> Take a look at the peltasts and iphicratids.  Good stuff there.  Look at what
they do within or coming out of a Village or down off a steep slope.
>
> What we know as Persians settled there from central asia.  Let go of this
western association with armor and return to your roots as the fast-moving
skirmishing cavalryman...
>
> Jon
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Frank Gilson <franktrevorgilson@...>
> To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 17:13:29 -0000
> Subject: [WarriorRules] Re: I need some advice on cavalry....
>
> You seek to undertake a difficult challenge...
>
> Some key points:
> 1) You can never frontally charge steady spearmen or pikemen.
> So, look for flanks, envelop, attempt to disorder such foot, rout a
> unit near them so they test and fail, then charge in.
>
> 2) You can not oppose elephants.
> If you have to stick some cav in front of enemy elephants, it needs
> to be skirmishing and throwing javelins...so your EHC can never be
> near enemy elephants.
>
> 3) You are vulnerable to enemy missile power.
> Screen enemy shooters with LI, attack them with your melee infantry.
>
> You need to get your cav to work in combined groups with your LI and
> LC to attack enemy LC, LI, and non-spear armed loose order infantry.
>
> When opposing enemy cavalry that is more heavily armored, or fights
> in 1.5 ranks, you need to make sure it is disordered and tired by
> shooting at it...so oppose such with your LI and LC first.
>
> Prepare to have your EHC and HC in long long fights against non-
> shaken non-light troops because they won't rout anything at contact.
>
> Thus, consider larger units than we normally see for cavalry.
>
> Frank
>
> --- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "Noel White" <agrianian@y...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Anyone figure out how to run an army with lots of EHC and HC with
> only
> > JLS?
> > I mean lots of them....maybe half the 1600pt army.
> >
> > I'm building a Late Achaemenid Persian army and I'm hoping for some
> > advice. I think that it is possible to make an army that looks
> like a
> > Persian army, and maybe even win sometimes. 
> >
> > Generally the advice I get on shieldless HC JLS (not fighting
> > rank+1/2) is "take as few as possible, make them Reg's and
> skirmish or
> > hide. Then take Saka merc's instead."
> > Not good enough.
> > I want to attack. The persians couldn't get enough of these guys
> for
> > some reason. They always attacked, and I'm determined to make'em
> work.
> >
> > So HC (and some EHC) that can be regular or irregular, C's and B's.
> > 1/2 of the regulars can carry shields. All are armed with JLS
> only.
> > I'm looking for dirty tricks, combo-tactics and positioning, and
> > anything else helpful. I don't go to tournaments much, so don't
> worry.
> > Someone out there has made this work... I hope you have Email!
> >
> > Thank you, gentlemen.
> >
> > Noel.
> >
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> SPONSORED LINKS
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Warrior
>
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Mike Turner]

Do the special list rules keep you up at night?


--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, darnd022263@a... wrote:
>
>
> Well, special list rules seem to be the thing now. So make the LAP
play
> historically correct and give them about 5000 points.
>
> Derekcus
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

[joncleaves]

<neigh, neigh> *Blam!* <silence>

-----Original Message-----
From: darnd022263@...
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 11:14:45 EST
Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] Re: I need some advice on cavalry....



Well, special list rules seem to be the thing now. So make the LAP play
historically correct and give them about 5000 points.

Derekcus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





Yahoo! Groups Links






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Kelly Wilkinson]

Craig,

I wish you would carbon copy me when you send your thoughts on
this issue to Noel. I would like to mull over any ideas you might
have to make my game better, if you don't mind.

kelly wilkinson



--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "craigshar2" <craigshar@c...>
wrote:
>
> Hello Noel,
>
> First of all congratulations this is one the most beautiful armies
> in the game and probably one of the most under estimated in our
> hobby. That said, it also one of most difficult to handle with its
> low morale and single rank JLS... fear not there are solutions. I
> will write you directly via your e-mail this weekend. This army can
> fight in any terrain and in ALL conditions as they had to do
> historically from this vast empire... "Good thoughts, good deeds"
(o:
>
> Best regards,
> Craig
>
>
>
> --- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "Noel White" <agrianian@y...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Anyone figure out how to run an army with lots of EHC and HC with
> only
> > JLS?
> > I mean lots of them....maybe half the 1600pt army.
> >
> > I'm building a Late Achaemenid Persian army and I'm hoping for
some
> > advice. I think that it is possible to make an army that looks
> like a
> > Persian army, and maybe even win sometimes.
> >
> > Generally the advice I get on shieldless HC JLS (not fighting
> > rank+1/2) is "take as few as possible, make them Reg's and
> skirmish or
> > hide. Then take Saka merc's instead."
> > Not good enough.
> > I want to attack. The persians couldn't get enough of these guys
> for
> > some reason. They always attacked, and I'm determined to make'em
> work.
> >
> > So HC (and some EHC) that can be regular or irregular, C's and
B's.
> > 1/2 of the regulars can carry shields. All are armed with JLS
> only.
> > I'm looking for dirty tricks, combo-tactics and positioning, and
> > anything else helpful. I don't go to tournaments much, so don't
> worry.
> > Someone out there has made this work... I hope you have Email!
> >
> > Thank you, gentlemen.
> >
> > Noel.
> >
>

[Kelly Wilkinson]

Hahahahaha! Even though Mike's comment caused me to bust a gut,
this follow up just about made me fall out of my seat!

kelly

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, JonCleaves@a... wrote:
>
> <neigh, neigh> *Blam!* <silence>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: darnd022263@a...
> To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 11:14:45 EST
> Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] Re: I need some advice on cavalry....
>
>
>
> Well, special list rules seem to be the thing now. So make the LAP
play
> historically correct and give them about 5000 points.
>
> Derekcus
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

[Todd Schneider]

If thatwere true everyone would be playing Mongols...

With all the whinging going on about these rules, it's
still the person pushing the figs thathas to make them
work.

Serioulsy, in an open competition, who would you
rather face, Me with Alexandrian Imperial, or someone
like Dave Markowitz or Dave Stiers with, say,
Thracians?

Todd

--- darnd022263@... wrote:

>
> Well, special list rules seem to be the thing now.
> So make the LAP play
> historically correct and give them about 5000
> points.
>
> Derekcus
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>





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