Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

joncleaves · Moderator Joined: 29 Mar 2006 Posts: 16447

That is very interesting. I am less surprised by the 'lack of record keeping'
answer than I am by what answers did NOT have substantial support.

joncleaves · Moderator Joined: 29 Mar 2006 Posts: 16447

The issue with record keeping is that a large part of ancient/medieval warfare
is an erosion of effectiveness over time followed by a sudden collapse. If that
time is ever longer than one 'bound' (or whatever other arbitrary time division)
than a 'record' of that erosion needs be 'kept'.

Doesn't mean though that we won't be able to offer a streamlined version of that
later on that preserves what we like about Warrior.

Centurion Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 933

below is an unscientific poll I ran on the DBMlist. I send this to
you guys as food for thought, not a dig. It is just something to
consider or discard at your leasure.

>
POLL QUESTION: Which DBM feature best represents an
advance in game system over older rules
systems?

CHOICES AND RESULTS
- army lists are better, 0 votes, 0.00%
- lack of record keeping, 13 votes, 54.17%
- no waver tests/ morale checks, 1 votes, 4.17%
- look of game on table, 4 votes, 16.67%
- rules writing style, 0 votes, 0.00%
- historical accuracy, 1 votes, 4.17%
- lack of difficult chart, 0 votes, 0.00%
- system played by my peers, 4 votes, 16.67%
- only system I know, 1 votes, 4.17%

Greg Regets · Imperator Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 2988

Who wouldn't want to have less record keeping? I sure would; but that is not the issue! The issue is eliminating record keeping while still keeping the flavor of a system.
Greg

P.S. NONE of you Dallas/Ft.Worth guys have any smack to run? That is even worse than record keeping! What has his hobby come to? *smiles*

Centurion Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 933

Exactly.

--- JonCleaves@... wrote:
> That is very interesting. I am less surprised by
> the 'lack of record keeping' answer than I am by
> what answers did NOT have substantial support.
>
>
>

=====
Wake up and smell the Assyrians

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Legionary Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 367

Polls. You could fill volumes with the info. you don't read in them. Hey, didn't Mark Twain say that?

joncleaves · Moderator Joined: 29 Mar 2006 Posts: 16447

'inroads into the DBM community' is not a policy goal of FHE. However..

The guys who left WRG 7 for DBM because they like simple games aren't going to
leave it for Warrior and we know that and don't have a problem with it.

Some guys who played DBM from the start (post 1995 or so) and never were 7th
players may join us.

The guys who left because WRG 7 wasn't being supported by its parent company may
very well come over to Warrior.

There is also the yet unknown overall impact of the quality of our army lists
and the way Fast Warrior plays. Both of those items have been HUGE with our
newbie test group.

Bottom line: jury's out on who we'll 'get back', but we sure as hell aren't
significantly changing the game engine just to attract people who like short
games and math of one digit.

Jon

Kelly Wilkinson · Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2001 7:06 pm Post subject: Re: In case anyone cares

If your trying to make a point about record keeping,
many of us who play Warrior use chips and counters to
record fatigue on the table. This is something that
the individual player can do to relieve this if they
don't like record keeping. To be honest, it's not that
tough!

Kelly W

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Recruit Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 20

Be cautious in reaching a conclusion about which results did not have
support. The poll was conducted in a way that only allowed one
response, i.e. the BEST feature. If you rephrased it by dropping out
BEST and adding "choose all that apply" and then polled the DBM
mailing list you'd get a much different result FWIW.

If you desired to make inroads into the DBM community, you'd need to
do more than just eliminate record keeping (which I suspect you
already know Smile

.

Wayne Melnick

--- In WarriorRules@y..., JonCleaves@a... wrote:
> That is very interesting. I am less surprised by the 'lack of
record keeping' answer than I am by what answers did NOT have
substantial support.

POLL QUESTION: Which DBM feature best represents an
advance in game system over older rules
systems?

CHOICES AND RESULTS
- army lists are better, 0 votes, 0.00%
- lack of record keeping, 13 votes, 54.17%
- no waver tests/ morale checks, 1 votes, 4.17%
- look of game on table, 4 votes, 16.67%
- rules writing style, 0 votes, 0.00%
- historical accuracy, 1 votes, 4.17%
- lack of difficult chart, 0 votes, 0.00%
- system played by my peers, 4 votes, 16.67%
- only system I know, 1 votes, 4.17%

Centurion Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 933

Exactly why I started with the caviate that this was a
non-scientific poll.

My goal was not to make inroads into any particular
system--i.e. steal players away--I was simply trying
to provide some food for thought when considering
future developments of Warrior. Nothing more.

Wanax

--- Wayne Melnick <wayne_melnick@...> wrote:
> Be cautious in reaching a conclusion about which
> results did not have
> support. The poll was conducted in a way that only
> allowed one
> response, i.e. the BEST feature.
>
> If you desired to make inroads into the DBM
> community, you'd need to
> do more than just eliminate record keeping (which I
> suspect you
> already know Smile

.
>
> Wayne Melnick
>
> --- In WarriorRules@y..., JonCleaves@a... wrote:
> > That is very interesting. I am less surprised by
> the 'lack of
> record keeping' answer than I am by what answers did
> NOT have
> substantial support.
>
>
> POLL QUESTION: Which DBM feature best represents an
> advance in game system over older rules
> systems?
>
> CHOICES AND RESULTS
> - army lists are better, 0 votes, 0.00%
> - lack of record keeping, 13 votes, 54.17%
> - no waver tests/ morale checks, 1 votes, 4.17%
> - look of game on table, 4 votes, 16.67%
> - rules writing style, 0 votes, 0.00%
> - historical accuracy, 1 votes, 4.17%
> - lack of difficult chart, 0 votes, 0.00%
> - system played by my peers, 4 votes, 16.67%
> - only system I know, 1 votes, 4.17%
>
>

=====
Wake up and smell the Assyrians

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joncleaves · Moderator Joined: 29 Mar 2006 Posts: 16447

No one said anyone had to use chips.

In fact, the troop states can be shown entirely through manipulation of the
elements in a body and this method is in the base rulebook.

To each, his or her own.

Jon

Recruit Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 55

UGH! Enough is too much! I won't permit chips and counters in a MINIATURES
game I play. (1) Chips and counters in a miniatures game are both
unrealistic and UGLY. (2) Chips and counters unrealistically give too much
info to your opponent. Frankly, your opponent's entitled to know the
fatigue state of your units ONLY during actual HTH, shooting or testing
wavering, and then he gets only "fresh," "tired" or "exhausted," NEVER the
exact number of fatigue points. "To be honest"... if you and your opponent
ARE honest you DON'T NEED chips and counters cluttering the table; that's
what offset/angled element bases and all that tedious bookkeeping are for,
duh. Yet another reason 7th was, and Warrior will be, the rules system
especially beloved by those having more in common with minutiae-obsessed
might-have-been bean-counters, trial lawyers or third-rate centurions, than
with ancient-era GENERALS.

The horror... the horror...

----- Original Message -----
From: "kelly wilkinson" <jwilkinson62@...>
To: <WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 9:06 AM
Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] In case anyone cares

>
> If your trying to make a point about record keeping,
> many of us who play Warrior use chips and counters to
> record fatigue on the table. This is something that
> the individual player can do to relieve this if they
> don't like record keeping. To be honest, it's not that
> tough!
>
> Kelly W
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo!
Messenger
> http://im.yahoo.com
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> WarriorRules-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Kelly Wilkinson · Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2001 7:48 pm Post subject: Re: In case anyone cares

Brian, Brian. . .
As my friend Jake Kovel does, you too could use
olive drab counters that match your terrain cloth to
represent casualties and fatigue. I've seen some very
nifty things done with magnetic counters and the like.
also, you could number your units and keep your chips
in a tray off of the gaming surface for all to see
thus relieving you from the tedius recording on paper
where errors can occur. When you say chips and
counters are unrealistic please tell me what IS
realistic about playing with toy soldiers and dice on
kelly green felt? I think Jon put it best several
postings back when he noted that fatigue and
casualties have to be recorded somehow to reflect
tiredness, casualties and exhaustion (Please correct
me if I have misrepresented what you espouse Jon).
Further, I don't particulary care if my opponent knows
how much fatigue any of my units have as he could
easily keep track himself, but this would lead to
forcing him to have to record it and as you say it
would lead to more record keeping. Further, a REAL
general would have the ability to observe how beaten
down a REAL unit is while we table top players can
only look at the fatigue level as it is recorded on
paper or more conveniently done on counters or chips.
I can at least accept being called a third rate
centurion but "How dare you refer those who adhere to
Warrior as a "LAWYER!" Them's Fight'n words up here on
the border in Missouri! ""Wink, Wink, Nod, Nod, Say No
More, Say No More!""

Kelly Wilkinson

--- "Brian K.Fritz" <bfritz@...> wrote:
> UGH! Enough is too much! I won't permit chips and
> counters in a MINIATURES
> game I play. (1) Chips and counters in a miniatures
> game are both
> unrealistic and UGLY. (2) Chips and counters
> unrealistically give too much
> info to your opponent. Frankly, your opponent's
> entitled to know the
> fatigue state of your units ONLY during actual HTH,
> shooting or testing
> wavering, and then he gets only "fresh," "tired" or
> "exhausted," NEVER the
> exact number of fatigue points. "To be honest"...
> if you and your opponent
> ARE honest you DON'T NEED chips and counters
> cluttering the table; that's
> what offset/angled element bases and all that
> tedious bookkeeping are for,
> duh. Yet another reason 7th was, and Warrior will
> be, the rules system
> especially beloved by those having more in common
> with minutiae-obsessed
> might-have-been bean-counters, trial lawyers or
> third-rate centurions, than
> with ancient-era GENERALS.
>
> The horror... the horror...
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "kelly wilkinson" <jwilkinson62@...>
> To: <WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 9:06 AM
> Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] In case anyone cares
>
>
> >
> > If your trying to make a point about record
> keeping,
> > many of us who play Warrior use chips and counters
> to
> > record fatigue on the table. This is something
> that
> > the individual player can do to relieve this if
> they
> > don't like record keeping. To be honest, it's not
> that
> > tough!
> >
> > Kelly W
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant
> messaging with Yahoo!
> Messenger
> > http://im.yahoo.com
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > WarriorRules-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>

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Recruit Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 74

----- Original Message ----- From: Brian K.Fritz Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 2:08 AM To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] In case anyone cares UGH! Enough is too much! I won't permit chips and counters in a MINIATURESgame I play. (1) Chips and counters in a miniatures game are bothunrealistic and UGLY. (2) Chips and counters unrealistically give too muchinfo to your opponent. Frankly, your opponent's entitled to know thefatigue state of your units ONLY during actual HTH, shooting or testingwavering, and then he gets only "fresh," "tired" or "exhausted," NEVER theexact number of fatigue points. "To be honest"... if you and your opponentARE honest you DON'T NEED chips and counters cluttering the table; that'swhat offset/angled element bases and all that tedious bookkeeping are for,duh. Yet another reason 7th was, and Warrior will be, the rules systemespecially beloved by those having more in common with minutiae-obsessedmight-have-been bean-counters, trial lawyers or third-rate centurions, thanwith ancient-era GENERALS.The horror... the horror...----- Hi Brian: Got an e mail from you via the Warriors list. I'm getting back into that system after having dropped out because of my dislije for DBM. Hope you are doing well. All's fine here in San Francisco. Best, Lenney Herrmann

Tim Brown · Legionary Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 326

Brian,
Do you play Warrior, or are you here mainly to start a flame war? If you have a better idea, then speak up. I'll assume you aren't an ass and were just tired this morning when you lumped together everyone on this list who plays Warrior over other game systems and insulted us. Please. I'll match wits with anyone anytime any system. That includes you.

Tim Brown

-----Original Message-----From: Brian K.Fritz [mailto:bfritz@lanset.com]Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 5:08 AMTo: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.comSubject: Re: [WarriorRules] In case anyone caresUGH! Enough is too much! I won't permit chips and counters in a MINIATURESgame I play. (1) Chips and counters in a miniatures game are bothunrealistic and UGLY. (2) Chips and counters unrealistically give too muchinfo to your opponent. Frankly, your opponent's entitled to know thefatigue state of your units ONLY during actual HTH, shooting or testingwavering, and then he gets only "fresh," "tired" or "exhausted," NEVER theexact number of fatigue points. "To be honest"... if you and your opponentARE honest you DON'T NEED chips and counters cluttering the table; that'swhat offset/angled element bases and all that tedious bookkeeping are for,duh. Yet another reason 7th was, and Warrior will be, the rules systemespecially beloved by those having more in common with minutiae-obsessedmight-have-been bean-counters, trial lawyers or third-rate centurions, thanwith ancient-era GENERALS.The horror... the horror...----- Original Message -----From: "kelly wilkinson" <jwilkinson62@yahoo.com>To: <WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com>Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 9:06 AMSubject: Re: [WarriorRules] In case anyone cares>> If your trying to make a point about record keeping,> many of us who play Warrior use chips and counters to> record fatigue on the table. This is something that> the individual player can do to relieve this if they> don't like record keeping. To be honest, it's not that> tough!>> Kelly W>>>> __________________________________________________> Do You Yahoo!?> Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo!Messenger> http://im.yahoo.com>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:> WarriorRules-unsubscribe@egroups.com>>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:WarriorRules-unsubscribe@egroups.comYour use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.