Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

Hi Jon

A couple of questions have come up over the last few of games:

1. When a unit takes fatigue from a rout move that exhausts them do
they disappear off the board before they move or after they rout
back?

2a. A unit of LI in a 3 wide by two deep block evades. Behind them
is a unit in column that they can legally interpenetrate that is
deeper than their 120 pace move. Do the elements that can pop
through the column, or does the unit have to drop back elements and
go around?

2b. If they have to go around, it's conceivable that the unit could
take on some odd shapes, i.e:

---
- C
- C
- C

where the - are the evaders and the C is the column. Is this
correct?

Thanks
Cole

[joncleaves]

<<1. When a unit takes fatigue from a rout move that exhausts them do
they disappear off the board before they move or after they rout
back?>>
[
The moment they move 1p, so effectively the former.

<<2a. A unit of LI in a 3 wide by two deep block evades. Behind them
is a unit in column that they can legally interpenetrate that is
deeper than their 120 pace move. Do the elements that can pop
through the column, or does the unit have to drop back elements and
go around?>>
[
They interpenetrate - even if it means exceeding their tac move distance.

Jon


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Mark Stone]

--- On November 7 Jon Cleaves responded: ---

>> 1. When a unit takes fatigue from a rout move that exhausts them do
>> they disappear off the board before they move or after they rout
>> back?
>
> The moment they move 1p, so effectively the former.

Really? I'll note that this is a complete departure from the way we've played it
in California (and, actually, the way of seen people play it in Lancaster).

I've always assumed that if the 2 CPF from doing a rout move was what it took to
take you to exhaustion, then you need to actually do a full rout move (and be
removed at the end of rout moves).

Note that this is actually a _very_ big deal, as it affects who ends up being in
range to take a waver test for a routing unit. I'm happy to play it the way you
describe above, Jon, but I just want to double check that this is really your
intent. If so, some clarification in the rules is surely need, as (a) everyone
I know plays it the other way, and (b) no one I know ever even thought this was
open to interpretation.


-Mark Stone

[Bill Chriss]

> > The moment they move 1p, so effectively the former.
>
> Really? I'll note that this is a complete departure from the way we've
> played it
> in California (and, actually, the way of seen people play it in
> Lancaster).
>
> I've always assumed that if the 2 CPF from doing a rout move was what it
> took to
> take you to exhaustion, then you need to actually do a full rout move
> (and be
> removed at the end of rout moves).
>


I agree with Mark here. If that's the way it is, noproblem, but a
clarification or rewording would be helpful.

And just to give a delayed response to Greg's exchange with others
earlier, let me say that no one can talk smack as entertainingly as Greg
can. I think it's all that flag football. Good to see him back on the
listserve. I've learned lots of new expressions from him over the years;
now if i could only play well enough to be able to use them :-)


-Greek

Mobile plays it as move first then disperse.


----- Original Message -----
From: <hrisikos@...>
To: <WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, November 07, 2005 2:44 PM
Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] Re: Jon: A couple of rules questions


>> > The moment they move 1p, so effectively the former.
>>
>> Really? I'll note that this is a complete departure from the way we've
>> played it
>> in California (and, actually, the way of seen people play it in
>> Lancaster).
>>
>> I've always assumed that if the 2 CPF from doing a rout move was what it
>> took to
>> take you to exhaustion, then you need to actually do a full rout move
>> (and be
>> removed at the end of rout moves).
>>
>
>
> I agree with Mark here. If that's the way it is, noproblem, but a
> clarification or rewording would be helpful.
>
> And just to give a delayed response to Greg's exchange with others
> earlier, let me say that no one can talk smack as entertainingly as Greg
> can. I think it's all that flag football. Good to see him back on the
> listserve. I've learned lots of new expressions from him over the years;
> now if i could only play well enough to be able to use them
>
>
> -Greek
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[joncleaves]

5.24 - a body is destroyed whenever it is both broken and exhausted.

5.31 - a body gains two fatigue points when it is rout moved. Not at the
completion of the move, when it is rout moved.

If the two fp from 5.31 - which the body receives when it is rout moved - make
it exhausted, then since it is broken, it is destroyed (5.24).

The vernacular would be - 'it blows up' or 'it dies on the rout'.

I don't know what to tell you about play in CA. I have observed hundreds of
Warrior games, some with you in them, many with people you have played as
opponents. I have never seen anyone complete a full rout move and then pick the
body up. It has always been done - in my line of sight - as soon as the player
notes that 2 more fp will exhaust the routing body. And that is the intent -
the cohesion of the body has deteriorated to the point that there is nothing
left for a general to recover and it immediately dissolves as a recognizable
body of troops....

However, since you asked it does therefore need clarification.

Jon





-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Stone <mark@...>
To: warrior <WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 20:34:40 +0000
Subject: [WarriorRules] Re: Jon: A couple of rules questions


--- On November 7 Jon Cleaves responded: ---

>> 1. When a unit takes fatigue from a rout move that exhausts them do
>> they disappear off the board before they move or after they rout
>> back?
>
> The moment they move 1p, so effectively the former.

Really? I'll note that this is a complete departure from the way we've played it
in California (and, actually, the way of seen people play it in Lancaster).

I've always assumed that if the 2 CPF from doing a rout move was what it took to
take you to exhaustion, then you need to actually do a full rout move (and be
removed at the end of rout moves).

Note that this is actually a _very_ big deal, as it affects who ends up being in
range to take a waver test for a routing unit. I'm happy to play it the way you
describe above, Jon, but I just want to double check that this is really your
intent. If so, some clarification in the rules is surely need, as (a) everyone
I know plays it the other way, and (b) no one I know ever even thought this was
open to interpretation.


-Mark Stone





Yahoo! Groups Links






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[joncleaves]

Well, heck, tell ya what. You guys tell me which way you want it to be and I
will write it that way.

Seriously.

Jon

-----Original Message-----
From: Roger Walker <rwalker@...>
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 14:49:53 -0600
Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] Re: Jon: A couple of rules questions


Mobile plays it as move first then disperse.


----- Original Message -----
From: <hrisikos@...>
To: <WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, November 07, 2005 2:44 PM
Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] Re: Jon: A couple of rules questions


>> > The moment they move 1p, so effectively the former.
>>
>> Really? I'll note that this is a complete departure from the way we've
>> played it
>> in California (and, actually, the way of seen people play it in
>> Lancaster).
>>
>> I've always assumed that if the 2 CPF from doing a rout move was what it
>> took to
>> take you to exhaustion, then you need to actually do a full rout move
>> (and be
>> removed at the end of rout moves).
>>
>
>
> I agree with Mark here. If that's the way it is, noproblem, but a
> clarification or rewording would be helpful.
>
> And just to give a delayed response to Greg's exchange with others
> earlier, let me say that no one can talk smack as entertainingly as Greg
> can. I think it's all that flag football. Good to see him back on the
> listserve. I've learned lots of new expressions from him over the years;
> now if i could only play well enough to be able to use them
>
>
> -Greek
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>





Yahoo! Groups Links






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Ewan McNay]

JonCleaves@... wrote:

> 5.24 - a body is destroyed whenever it is both broken and exhausted.
>
> 5.31 - a body gains two fatigue points when it is rout moved. Not at
> the completion of the move, when it is rout moved.
>
> If the two fp from 5.31 - which the body receives when it is rout moved
> - make it exhausted, then since it is broken, it is destroyed (5.24).
>
> The vernacular would be - 'it blows up' or 'it dies on the rout'.
>
> I don't know what to tell you about play in CA. I have observed
> hundreds of Warrior games, some with you in them, many with people you
> have played as opponents. I have never seen anyone complete a full
> rout move and then pick the body up. It has always been done - in my
> line of sight - as soon as the player notes that 2 more fp will exhaust
> the routing body. And that is the intent - the cohesion of the body
> has deteriorated to the point that there is nothing left for a general
> to recover and it immediately dissolves as a recognizable body of
> troops....

It's not CA - it's been the case at Lancaster (and everywhere else I've
played) whenever this has arisen in a game I've been involved in. If the
body is only destroyed as a result of having made a rout move, it's always
made that move.

[note also that your two vernacular phrases are, for me and in my
experience, notations of the two *different* occurences]

[joncleaves]

Ok. Anyone opposed to me changing my answer and doing it the way you all have
been doing it?

Jon

-----Original Message-----
From: Ewan McNay <ewan.mcnay@...>
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, 07 Nov 2005 16:30:25 -0500
Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] Re: Jon: A couple of rules questions




JonCleaves@... wrote:

> 5.24 - a body is destroyed whenever it is both broken and exhausted.
>
> 5.31 - a body gains two fatigue points when it is rout moved. Not at
> the completion of the move, when it is rout moved.
>
> If the two fp from 5.31 - which the body receives when it is rout moved
> - make it exhausted, then since it is broken, it is destroyed (5.24).
>
> The vernacular would be - 'it blows up' or 'it dies on the rout'.
>
> I don't know what to tell you about play in CA. I have observed
> hundreds of Warrior games, some with you in them, many with people you
> have played as opponents. I have never seen anyone complete a full
> rout move and then pick the body up. It has always been done - in my
> line of sight - as soon as the player notes that 2 more fp will exhaust
> the routing body. And that is the intent - the cohesion of the body
> has deteriorated to the point that there is nothing left for a general
> to recover and it immediately dissolves as a recognizable body of
> troops....

It's not CA - it's been the case at Lancaster (and everywhere else I've
played) whenever this has arisen in a game I've been involved in. If the
body is only destroyed as a result of having made a rout move, it's always
made that move.

[note also that your two vernacular phrases are, for me and in my
experience, notations of the two *different* occurences]





Yahoo! Groups Links






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Greg Preston]

Jon,

Down here in Oz we have been doing it the same way as Ewan- so no
objection to a changed answer here

Greg P.


On 08/11/2005, at 8:48, JonCleaves@... wrote:

> Ok.  Anyone opposed to me changing my answer and doing it the way you
> all have been doing it?
>
> Jon
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ewan McNay <ewan.mcnay@...>
> To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Mon, 07 Nov 2005 16:30:25 -0500
> Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] Re: Jon: A couple of rules questions
>
>
>
>
> JonCleaves@... wrote:
>
> > 5.24 - a body is destroyed whenever it is both broken and exhausted.
> >
> > 5.31 - a body gains two fatigue points when it is rout moved.  Not
> at
> > the completion of the move, when it is rout moved.
> >
> > If the two fp from 5.31 - which the body receives when it is rout
> moved
> > - make it exhausted, then since it is broken, it is destroyed
> (5.24).
> >
> > The vernacular would be - 'it blows up' or 'it dies on the rout'.
> >
> > I don't know what to tell you about play in CA.  I have observed
> > hundreds of Warrior games, some with you in them, many with people
> you
> > have played as opponents.  I have never seen anyone complete a full
> > rout move and then pick the body up.  It has always been done - in
> my
> > line of sight - as soon as the player notes that 2 more fp will
> exhaust
> > the routing body.  And that is the intent - the cohesion of the body
> > has deteriorated to the point that there is nothing left for a
> general
> > to recover and it immediately dissolves as a recognizable body of
> > troops....
>
> It's not CA - it's been the case at Lancaster (and everywhere else
> I've
> played) whenever this has arisen in a game I've been involved in.  If
> the
> body is only destroyed as a result of having made a rout move, it's
> always
> made that move.
>
> [note also that your two vernacular phrases are, for me and in my
> experience, notations of the two *different* occurences]
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
>
> ▪  Visit your group "WarriorRules" on the web.
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> Service.
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>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Well, I'll be darned, and maybe hornswoggled as well.

I've always played that as you had to make the rout move to collect the
fatigue, and as there are no "partial" rout moves, the unit blows up at
the end of its FULL move. And I've "corrected" many, many players on
this issue--and never lost the arguement. So I apologise to all those
I've "corrected"--apparently, I was wrong!

On the other hand, it seems to me logical as the rules are written. If
you need a rationalzation, it's that units do not lose cohesion
instantly, and pursuers have a vested interest in making sure (really
sure) that the job is done--in other words, since the routers don't
actually vanish, that they "move" and the pursuers continue the nasty
work of pursuit that extra distance/time while the unit evaporates.

So if Jon is taking votes, mine is that the routing unit move full
distance before being scraped off...

(about 4 cents)

Christian

>
>

I would vote for this to.
Unit is removed after rout move completed. (more waver tests!)
You would only "blow-up" if you took enough fatigue from combat.

Noel.

>
> So if Jon is taking votes, mine is that the routing unit move full
> distance before being scraped off...
>
> (about 4 cents)
>
> Christian
>
> >
> >
>

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 11/7/2005 17:39:23 Central Standard Time,
cgc.sjw@... writes:

So if Jon is taking votes, mine is that the routing unit move full
distance before being scraped off...



So let it be written...

Jon


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Australia does and has always played the remove at the end of the
rout that takes them to or over 15 fatigues. It was certainly
ambiguous if your intent was otherwise

Adrian Williams

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, JonCleaves@a... wrote:
>
> 5.24 - a body is destroyed whenever it is both broken and
exhausted.
>
> 5.31 - a body gains two fatigue points when it is rout moved. Not
at the completion of the move, when it is rout moved.
>
> If the two fp from 5.31 - which the body receives when it is rout
moved - make it exhausted, then since it is broken, it is destroyed
(5.24).
>
> The vernacular would be - 'it blows up' or 'it dies on the rout'.
>
> I don't know what to tell you about play in CA. I have observed
hundreds of Warrior games, some with you in them, many with people
you have played as opponents. I have never seen anyone complete a
full rout move and then pick the body up. It has always been done -
in my line of sight - as soon as the player notes that 2 more fp
will exhaust the routing body. And that is the intent - the
cohesion of the body has deteriorated to the point that there is
nothing left for a general to recover and it immediately dissolves
as a recognizable body of troops....
>
> However, since you asked it does therefore need clarification.
>
> Jon
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark Stone <mark@d...>
> To: warrior <WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 20:34:40 +0000
> Subject: [WarriorRules] Re: Jon: A couple of rules questions
>
>
> --- On November 7 Jon Cleaves responded: ---
>
> >> 1. When a unit takes fatigue from a rout move that exhausts
them do
> >> they disappear off the board before they move or after they rout
> >> back?
> >
> > The moment they move 1p, so effectively the former.
>
> Really? I'll note that this is a complete departure from the way
we've played it
> in California (and, actually, the way of seen people play it in
Lancaster).
>
> I've always assumed that if the 2 CPF from doing a rout move was
what it took to
> take you to exhaustion, then you need to actually do a full rout
move (and be
> removed at the end of rout moves).
>
> Note that this is actually a _very_ big deal, as it affects who
ends up being in
> range to take a waver test for a routing unit. I'm happy to play
it the way you
> describe above, Jon, but I just want to double check that this is
really your
> intent. If so, some clarification in the rules is surely need, as
(a) everyone
> I know plays it the other way, and (b) no one I know ever even
thought this was
> open to interpretation.
>
>
> -Mark Stone
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

[John Murphy]

If the charger would otherwise catch LI elements which are not
interpenetrating (say the charger is not aligned with the unit in
column being interpenetrated) - what happens here? Does the entire
unit get the extra evade if this means LI is not caught?

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, JonCleaves@a... wrote:
> <<2a. A unit of LI in a 3 wide by two deep block evades. Behind
them
> is a unit in column that they can legally interpenetrate that is
> deeper than their 120 pace move. Do the elements that can pop
> through the column, or does the unit have to drop back elements and
> go around?>>
> [
> They interpenetrate - even if it means exceeding their tac move
distance.