Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[Ewan McNay]

From: "Frank Gilson" <franktrevorgilson@...>
Subject: Re: Digest Number 976, Kingdom of Vijayanagara

Yes, it does have access to some regular EHC lancers. However, to get
them
charging impetuously, you'd have to have an EHC general...generally
(really
hard to get a general on an elephant, in line of command, charging, next
to
your regular EHC, who can't charge the same target, rules 6.163 and
6.164)...but I have a question for Jon Cleaves: Can I declare a charge
on
the same body by cavalry AND Elephants, only to have the Elephants
charge be
cancelled? ...but to permit the regular cavalry to be impetuous because
the
Elephants were their general? I would think no...

**I like this thought . The general permits impetuosity, but then
reins in Jumbo and waves to the haring off EHC "fooled you!"**

...phew...

Anyway...the list has elephants. Irr B w/ 2 crew JLS,B...but that type
of
elephant doesn't throw out much shooting, nor do they have pike to cause
a
-1 to enemy combat factor...after an initial bound of combat, they also
don't have additional crew figures to fight with. I consider them to be
3rd
in line of the type of elephant I want to run.

**BUT there is an option to arm the driver with JLS also - and I agree,
the extra man in the 2nd round is a good thing. The 2nd round is the
reason why I considered running Burmese allies - the 11 figures per
element fighting bound 2 was very tempting.**

The list has no particularly useable light cavalry. None of its foot
archers
can have any shields.

**The LC issue I agree may be problematic; I think it has to be
considered in light of likely terrain, however. One of the problems of
this (and other similar lists) is that half of it wants to fight in the
open, while the other half wants to be in terrain; that can be tough to
coordinate. My guess is that you're likely to be picking a couple of
open spaces and a couple of woods (better than brush; harms opposing cav
just as much as your El, makes your LHI JLS superior to e.g. opposing
peltasts, slows down opposing cav much more). Those woods are likely to
be protecting your refused flank, in which case LI can hold them better
than LC and the LC might end up getting in the way.

** On the third hand, LC also give you scouting points; unless you're
planning to buy a *lot* of LI (a la Frank here) you may well be
outscouted. Not generally a good thing.**

Finally, you must buy "guys waiting to die", 24 Irr D LMI JLS,Sh and 24
Irr
D LMI B. The archers, at least, serve some residual purpose and are
cheap...but those JLS,Sh guys suck about as bad as anything can.

**Yes; they, too, get to sit in ambush deep in a wood somewhere, or get
traded in for boats and rocks **

Let me point out a 1600 pt. list and see what we end up with:
CinC JLS,B w/ PA on elephant with Irr B JLS,B crew and another similar
elephant for 166pts
Sub in a similar 2 elephant unit for 106pts
6 Reg C EHC L,Sh elephant proof for 88pts
6 Reg B EHC L,B,Sh elephant proof for 106pts (as much as the elephant
sub
general!!!)

**So far, so good. The EHC are compulsory; putting the El into 2 vs. 3
model units we have covered previously.**

2 units of 4 Reg C LI JLS,Sh at 52pts for both
2 units of 12 Reg C LI B at 92pts for both

**Now we begin to diverge. The 2-element JLS, Sh units I like, and
would buy more of, perhaps 4 units. On the other hand, I would run the
LI B in 8-man units if I ran them, which I probably wouldn't here - I'd
take them as LMI instead. I'll put all these changes together at the
bottom with comments a la Frank again.**

16 Reg C LMI JLS,Sh for 74pts (I hate these guys, by the way, my
prejudice though)

**I like them, mostly because I expect to see a lot of e.g. Aztecs, LMI
B, etc. and want something to deal with those opponents. I'd upgrade to
half LHI, which I can do because I'm taking more LMI than Frank is so
far (the LHI is up to 1/4 of all LMI, so by taking LMI B rather than LI
B I am permitted more LHI if desired).**

24 Irr D LMI JLS,Sh for 73pts
24 Irr D LMI B for 49pts

**Nothing to do about these guys.

**OK, so I deleted Frank's LI B and added 2 16-man LMI B units @ 116 for
the two; I'm 24 points over his spending so far.**

...that's our reasonable minimums...at a total so far of 806
points...half
the army.
This is an elephant army, and you want to run it that way, so we add:
2 units of 3 of our type of Elephants at 315pts for both, now we are up
to
1121 total.

** We agree again, and that's all the elephants that we're sensibly
permitted. We could get one more 2-El unit by taking an Ally-general,
but he comes with more compulsory IrrD LMI guys, a price that I (and
apparently Frank) think to be too high. I'm at 1145.**

We're trying to use the regular javelin armed loose order guys...already
having 16 lets us get:
16 Reg C LHI/LMI JLS,Sh (1/4 can be LHI) for 90pts, 1211 total.

**Agreement may be getting boring, but I buy these also, making 1235.
There are a total of 36 available, and we've bought 32, so there are 4
more if we have spare points at the end. Just keep that at the back of
your mind as you're working through whatever list you're doing: what odd
troops have I not yet bought the max of?**

Note that we now have only 4 regular command factors left...so we've got
to
be a little careful.

**Something that too few folk pay attention to, is my guess.**

In order to give myself another unit of lancers, AND provide them all a
way
to be impetuous, I'm buying an EHC sub-general...
Sub w/P and 5 Reg A EHC L,Sh elephant proof (technically might be able
to
put him in the Reg C unit, but that would suck...) for 135pts, a new
total
of 1346. I've got 254 left to buy with, and currently have 15 units in 3
commands with 14 scouting points...only 32 LI, which is a little less of
a
line of 'lights' than I'd like, so some of the remaining points will be
LI.

** My priority order is different here. The EHC I consider to be in
some ways a cost of taking this army - they have uses, but probably not
where I want to put my focus, and so an EHC sub would not be next on my
list. He might make it in at the end, but we'll see what else is
available first.

** With those 4 remaining regular command factors, I want some more LI
JLS, Sh - take 2 more 4-man units, at 52 total, and make another mental
note that I might want to expand some of these to 8-man, perhaps. Then
take the rest of the available LMI B, as a 16 and a 24, total cost of
140. That's another 192 points, making 1427. Getting close to our
1600-point limit, and we're out of regular units (note that the Sub with
EHC is still an option, being a body rather than a unit).**

I want an LI unit that can actually chase off most enemy LI...that'd be
JLS,Sh...so I'll get a 12 man unit.
12 Reg C LI JLS,Sh for 58pts (note that they could be Irr C, but that's
only
of benefit if I feel I need impetuous charges. I think the regular
maneuver
capability is more important).

More LI archers will be good...I really like 12 man regular light archer
units, so I'll get two more.
2 units of 12 Reg C LI B at 92pts for both, our total is now 1496...104
points remaining.

**I am confident that even a 4-man LI JLS, Sh unit can run off any
non-JLS LI, so I'll stick with 4 (or maybe man units. My general
plan would be for 2 or 3 of these to skirmish and delay on one flank
(maybe in woods) while the other 1 or 2 go forward force-marched to
seize some ground, expecting them to fall back through my lines
afterward. Once they've done that, they make great rear support for my
El, keeping them eager cheaply, or can be redeployed - perhaps to help
delay on the refused flank. I'm still not enamoured of shieldless LI
B. Frank has a *lot* of LI, though (68, I think, which are also 17
scouting points), and he's going to have a good screen of lights to keep
his strike forces behind - he may be right here.

**I'm still at 1427 points. What else is there in the list that I would
want to buy?

**Well, I could buy some of the cheap (IrrD) LC. I have fewer scouts
than Frank would thus far, and that choice would help me to avoid being
outscouted (I might even outscout some of the opponents, such as Aztec
or even Khmer). 12 LC would only cost me 61 points, and they could go
play again on the delayed flank. That would probably free up a LI unit
to force march on my attacking flank, too. These guys will rarely/never
kill anything, but they can evade just fine .

**I could buy an EHC Sub. He'd be 135 points, most of my remaining
allotment.

**I could buy some IrrC LI or LMI JLS, Sh; I could even buy IrrD LMI,
but am unlikely to do so; it just makes too good a target for the
opponent, and my decent troops will take wavers when they rout.

**I could get exotic, and buy bombards or rocket launchers.
Unfortunately, I'm not Eric and have no idea how to use artillery, so
this is not for me.

** I can expand some of my current units. Taking the last 8 LHI/LMI
JLs, Sh guys would be 40 points (they'd have to make a 16-man unit into
a 24, because there are no more command factors even if I wanted an
8-man unit). Making 4-man LI JLS, Sh units into 8-man would be 16
each. I think that I'm talking myself into this route plus the junk
LC. So, LC @ 61, LH/MI @ 40, 2 expanded LI units @ 32 total is 133 (and
I've now maxed out the available LI, having bought every single Hindu
foot figure in the list). That's 1560 points. OH! Wait. I forgot to
upgrade my elephant drivers to be armed with JLS - my bad. I have ten
elephants including generals, so that's going to cost me 60 points. I'm
now 20 over my 1600-point limit. I can actually spend 1603 - the
cheapest element in the army is IrrD LMI B @ 3 - so I need to lose 17
somewhere. One of those 8-man LI units goes right back to being 4-man
(-16) and the CinC loses his armed driver - if I am relying on my CinC
having a third armed El crewman, I'm probably in trouble anyway! That's
now a 1598-point list. I only have two commands, which is not great; on
the other hand, the units that will need prompting most often are the
El, probably, and with 2 bodies in each command it should work out just
about OK. Again, this is a personal choice - Frank and I have ended up
with very different lists, but it's certainly not the case that I'm
right and he's wrong .**

There's something I haven't done, of course...Hindu foot can be in mixed
units...I just don't see much profit to mixing them, unless you want to
put
Reg C LMI B as a third rank for the JLS units?

**Naah. I don't see the added value here either, although jon's point
is valid.**

**Next batter?**

E

[Greg Regets]

Ewan ...

I will be very curious to hear how you do with these guys. It looks
like a very good army, but I think if you run into a moogy/knight
army, with sufficient skirmishers, run by a skilled player; you will
probably have to drastically outplay him.

Then again, it is said you do that now and then. :-)

I have never run elephants to any great extent, because I always
thought TOG over-rated them greatly, but when reading your thoughts
about the cycle of army choices, I feel the days of the elephant army
are somewhat numbered. Well more than half the army lists you look at
these days, have some good anti-elephant troops and get them in large
numbers. The supporting cast for elephants looks great, when looked
at in the context of the elephants having a positive effect, but
barring that, most of it looks like knight bait. I'm sure it will
take players a few years to get good armies together, but in my
opinion, the elephants should be seeing the writing on the wall.

Perhaps I am totally wrong about this. It wouldn't be the first time
to be sure, but I think for now, I do not see painting elephants in
my future. :-)

G

[Kelly Wilkinson]

Greg,
You of all people know that this is a rock, paper, and scissors game! Ewan
will support his Noseboys with elephant proof EHC lancers who will make the
nasty Moogs shake and then he will gut them, thus allowing his elephants to go
beat up on the knights! I've played Ewan and he is IMHO one of the top 4(you are
one of these!) players on this side of the Atlantic that come to mind. He will
find a way to use his METT-T and exploit his opponents weaknesses as he makes
few if any mistakes! I believe he has that distinctly "British Mistique for
Victory" that has made people from those tiny islands the largest empire the
world has ever known!
Kelly
PS "No, Ewan didn't pay me to say that! Really!!" ;)

Greg Regets <gar@...> wrote:
Ewan ...

I will be very curious to hear how you do with these guys. It looks
like a very good army, but I think if you run into a moogy/knight
army, with sufficient skirmishers, run by a skilled player; you will
probably have to drastically outplay him.

Then again, it is said you do that now and then. :-)

I have never run elephants to any great extent, because I always
thought TOG over-rated them greatly, but when reading your thoughts
about the cycle of army choices, I feel the days of the elephant army
are somewhat numbered. Well more than half the army lists you look at
these days, have some good anti-elephant troops and get them in large
numbers. The supporting cast for elephants looks great, when looked
at in the context of the elephants having a positive effect, but
barring that, most of it looks like knight bait. I'm sure it will
take players a few years to get good armies together, but in my
opinion, the elephants should be seeing the writing on the wall.

Perhaps I am totally wrong about this. It wouldn't be the first time
to be sure, but I think for now, I do not see painting elephants in
my future. :-)

G


Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
WarriorRules-unsubscribe@egroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Greg Regets]

I agree Kelly, it has always been r/p/s ... but in the instance of
elephant/LO armies vs. moogy/knights with lots of skirmishers
(emphasis on lots), I still feel the elephant only has one of the
three pieces, and the enemy has the other two.

I don't know about British mystique as it applies to Warrior, but I
know British girls with that sexy accent are sure to give most Texans
some major wood!

Greg

P.S. I got those pictures back from the last tournament. As soon as I
get them scanned, I will post them on the site.



--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, kelly wilkinson
<jwilkinson62@y...> wrote:
> Greg,
> You of all people know that this is a rock, paper, and
scissors game! Ewan will support his Noseboys with elephant proof EHC
lancers who will make the nasty Moogs shake and then he will gut
them, thus allowing his elephants to go beat up on the knights! I've
played Ewan and he is IMHO one of the top 4(you are one of these!)
players on this side of the Atlantic that come to mind. He will find
a way to use his METT-T and exploit his opponents weaknesses as he
makes few if any mistakes! I believe he has that distinctly "British
Mistique for Victory" that has made people from those tiny islands
the largest empire the world has ever known!
> Kelly
> PS "No, Ewan didn't pay me to say that! Really!!"
>
> Greg Regets <gar@t...> wrote:
> Ewan ...
>
> I will be very curious to hear how you do with these guys. It looks
> like a very good army, but I think if you run into a moogy/knight
> army, with sufficient skirmishers, run by a skilled player; you
will
> probably have to drastically outplay him.
>
> Then again, it is said you do that now and then.
>
> I have never run elephants to any great extent, because I always
> thought TOG over-rated them greatly, but when reading your thoughts
> about the cycle of army choices, I feel the days of the elephant
army
> are somewhat numbered. Well more than half the army lists you look
at
> these days, have some good anti-elephant troops and get them in
large
> numbers. The supporting cast for elephants looks great, when looked
> at in the context of the elephants having a positive effect, but
> barring that, most of it looks like knight bait. I'm sure it will
> take players a few years to get good armies together, but in my
> opinion, the elephants should be seeing the writing on the wall.
>
> Perhaps I am totally wrong about this. It wouldn't be the first
time
> to be sure, but I think for now, I do not see painting elephants in
> my future.
>
> G
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> WarriorRules-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Kelly Wilkinson]

LOL! Especially that chick from Farscape(you know the dark headed one!
Ooooooooeeeee! By the way, as Monty Python says, "There's no Buggery in the
British Army,(Ooooo scratch your eyes out)!"

Kelly
PS: Can't wait to see'em! heehee!

Greg Regets <gar@...> wrote:
I agree Kelly, it has always been r/p/s ... but in the instance of
elephant/LO armies vs. moogy/knights with lots of skirmishers
(emphasis on lots), I still feel the elephant only has one of the
three pieces, and the enemy has the other two.

I don't know about British mystique as it applies to Warrior, but I
know British girls with that sexy accent are sure to give most Texans
some major wood!

Greg

P.S. I got those pictures back from the last tournament. As soon as I
get them scanned, I will post them on the site.



--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, kelly wilkinson
<jwilkinson62@y...> wrote:
> Greg,
> You of all people know that this is a rock, paper, and
scissors game! Ewan will support his Noseboys with elephant proof EHC
lancers who will make the nasty Moogs shake and then he will gut
them, thus allowing his elephants to go beat up on the knights! I've
played Ewan and he is IMHO one of the top 4(you are one of these!)
players on this side of the Atlantic that come to mind. He will find
a way to use his METT-T and exploit his opponents weaknesses as he
makes few if any mistakes! I believe he has that distinctly "British
Mistique for Victory" that has made people from those tiny islands
the largest empire the world has ever known!
> Kelly
> PS "No, Ewan didn't pay me to say that! Really!!"
>
> Greg Regets <gar@t...> wrote:
> Ewan ...
>
> I will be very curious to hear how you do with these guys. It looks
> like a very good army, but I think if you run into a moogy/knight
> army, with sufficient skirmishers, run by a skilled player; you
will
> probably have to drastically outplay him.
>
> Then again, it is said you do that now and then.
>
> I have never run elephants to any great extent, because I always
> thought TOG over-rated them greatly, but when reading your thoughts
> about the cycle of army choices, I feel the days of the elephant
army
> are somewhat numbered. Well more than half the army lists you look
at
> these days, have some good anti-elephant troops and get them in
large
> numbers. The supporting cast for elephants looks great, when looked
> at in the context of the elephants having a positive effect, but
> barring that, most of it looks like knight bait. I'm sure it will
> take players a few years to get good armies together, but in my
> opinion, the elephants should be seeing the writing on the wall.
>
> Perhaps I am totally wrong about this. It wouldn't be the first
time
> to be sure, but I think for now, I do not see painting elephants in
> my future.
>
> G
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> WarriorRules-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
WarriorRules-unsubscribe@egroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]