Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

<<What I really enjoy about battle reports like this, is the opportunity to
see other peoples lists and style of play.>>

I agree 100%. I've never been to any of the big tournaments and so we've
basically played in our own little world for a long time. In our circle we
tend to favor large units and largely infantry armies. Thats partly becuase
the favorite armies of the two most historically knowledgable people here
are infantry based and partly becuase we've never felt cavalry was too
effective in Warrior or TOG. (Feel free to attack away on that comment but
do it in a helpful manner please!)

Cavalry has a role but a largely cavalry army doesn't seem to have the
'staying power' to grind up an infantry army and even if it got a unit to
unit fair fight the cav tends to get butchered by missile armed foot (see
John's comments about the LIR vs Normans earlier). Its not too rare for us
to have games where the only horses present are pulling chariots!

Sorry for the long lead in, but my question is this: It seems like from all
the talk about big tournaments that 'Knight' armies tend to be way
over-represented and tend to dominate... Does anyone have a sample army
list? Are we talking 'knight heavy' lists or just lists that can and do
field 'some' mean knights like 100 YR War English for example?

Thanks,
James

[Ewan McNay]

"Hovey, James" wrote:
> Sorry for the long lead in, but my question is this: It seems like from all
> the talk about big tournaments that 'Knight' armies tend to be way
> over-represented and tend to dominate... Does anyone have a sample army
> list? Are we talking 'knight heavy' lists or just lists that can and do
> field 'some' mean knights like 100 YR War English for example?

I think it is true that both knight-based (very much) and elephant-based
(a little) tend to dominate. But the whole thing is somewhat cyclical:
in gross terms, knights beat infantry beat (sometimes) elephants beat
knights. However, knights probably offer the best overall punch/speed
combination.

And a lot of this of course is player-based. If a given very good
player uses knights a lot, then knights will win a lot of tourneys
without necessarily being over-represented.

Having said that, the knight lists that people run are: Sicilian
Hohenstaufen (NASAMW version!), Medieval Spanish (with the English
longbows), Teuts (usually with Reg Prussians, also a NASAMW quirk) and
Imperialists (only me, really..). The first three share the
characteristic of backing up the knights with Reg LMI and LC; the last
is, well, just me, but very knight-intensive.

HYW I have seen run in the UK (where it got run a *lot* before a lot of
Aztecs then started appearing) but not over here. Hell, I've even
fought a War of the Roses yorkist army; boy is that a lot of longbows!
:)

Ewan

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 6/25/2002 16:35:46 Central Daylight Time, gar@...
writes:


> I don't think I'm any better a player than anyont else, and I'm damn sure
> not as smart as most, but you have no idea how long I have been hearing how
> wrong everything I do is, from everyone around this area. Why should the
> WARRIOR board be any different.
>

Oh, you mistake me sir. I said nothing about you doing anything wrong. I
have KSJ in both scales... Just looking for insight into how you defeat
Rajputs and Khmer and Burmese, oh my...


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[joncleaves]

James

In open tourneys, where armies can play out of period, we tend to see two types
of armies predominate - elephants (missile armed elephants with good supporting
foot: muslim indian, SE asian, etc.) and knights with missile infantry (100YW,
Med. Spanish, etc.). Top end opens can be won with Macedonians or Yuan chinese,
but if you are looking for TRENDS, that is what must be accounted for when you
decide to play in an open.

Armies of mostly cav do not fair well against such armies due to table size and
terrain density as much as the 'ahistorical' nature of the matchups. If a 15mm
open tourney had clear 12x5 tables, I'd take mongols or avars or whatever...

What I would like to see is more and more 'theme' or 'in-period' tourneys.
Wouldn't want them all to be that way, because my Han don't have many historical
opponents...lol..but we need to do more historical stuff in and out of
tournaments.

Jon

[joncleaves]

Beware the asian indian army whose player carries four really large hoops of
string....

[Greg Regets]

I have been doing alright with Knights of St. John, running the following 1600
point list:

1x C-inC & 5 REG A SHK L Sh
1x 2-in-C & 5 REG A SHK L Sh
1x Sub & 5 IRR B SHK L Sh
1x 6 REG B HC L Sh
2x 16 REG C HI LTS Sh
1x 16 REG C LHI JLS Sh
4x 8 REG C LHI JLS Sh
1x 16 REG C LHI 1/2 CB 2HCT Sh, 1/2 CB
1x 16 REG D LMI CB 1/2 Sh
3x 8 REG D LI CB Sh
2x 8 IRR C LC JLS B Sh

The idea is to roll good terrain and control it with LHI. The LTS runs with the
knights. I have enough lights (buy the LI all shielded, so you can stretch out
four stands wide, not shoot, and make the enemy get rid of you) - and terrain
control, so I can usually get my body of LTS and knights on something like LMI,
who don't want to fight the LTS and don't dare skirmish against the knights/HC.
The little 8 figure LHI units are effective against foot if used properly, and
if cavalry comes after them, they will find knights waiting. Elephants are not
fun, but there are very few elephant armies that can play with me in terrain I
choose. I usually try to be patient and make him march forward of the terrain
that I control in order to get at something the elephants can kill. The same
holds true of armies with large units. Make him march forward of terrain he
can't kick me out of, and force his attack on my terms. This is the big reason I
buy so many 8's of the LHI.

My second list ditches the 2x HI LTS, cuts the LHI CB down to an 8-figure unit,
and ditches the LMI CB unit and one LI unit. I add two units of knights (one
REG, one IRR), both with generals, and another unit of REG B HC L Sh, bringing
me to five knights and two HC. I know buying five generals is a bit wasteful,
but I'm only going to use this list against armies where my knights have clear
kills, mounted or dismounted. When I attack, being A/B moral with generals turns
a -2 roll back to even. To me, its worth the points. If I can force a match
where even a -1 gets a kill, I have a sure kill with the regulars and a probable
kill with the Irregs. I have thought about using the HC as back rankers, but
dismounting is a problem, and I seem to get stuck using these to support the LC.
The four march segments is a big help in that role. At any rate, with the 1/2
command retirement rule, you don't need to kill as many guys to get the result
you want, and the flexibility of having these as HC is useful to me. All the
same rules apply as with the first list, you still want to and can control
terrain against almost anyone, and your LI, being all shielded may stretch out
long and not shoot, forcing the enemy to charge them to get rid of them.

I'm not saying this is the way to go, and six months from now will probably have
new lists, but so far, this has done alright by me.

Greg


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Ewan McNay]

JonCleaves@... wrote:
> Armies of mostly cav do not fair well against such armies due to table size
and terrain density as much as the 'ahistorical' nature of the matchups. If a
15mm > open tourney had clear 12x5 tables, I'd take mongols or avars or
whatever...

I strongly disagree with part of that. Terrain is not a problem; I've
won tournaments using 'book' terrain rules and Mongols. Table size *is*
a problem, and IMNSHO *the* problem, for the manouvre armies; the
combination of reasonably large armies on (in 25mm) small tables is a
killer. Try either playing fewer points, going to 15mm (where even on a
6x4 @ 1600 points, Mongols are viable), or enlarging tables.

I don't think that the historical nature of the matchups or otherwise
really has anything to do with it. Mongols can quite happily beat Teuts
if given space; in a cramped environment such as current 25mm in most
cases, no chance.

Ewan

[Ewan McNay]

"Greggory A. Regets" wrote:
>
> I have been doing alright with Knights of St. John, running the following 1600
point list:
>
> 1x C-inC & 5 REG A SHK L Sh
> 1x 2-in-C & 5 REG A SHK L Sh
> 1x Sub & 5 IRR B SHK L Sh
> 1x 6 REG B HC L Sh
> 2x 16 REG C HI LTS Sh
> 1x 16 REG C LHI JLS Sh
> 4x 8 REG C LHI JLS Sh
> 1x 16 REG C LHI 1/2 CB 2HCT Sh, 1/2 CB
> 1x 16 REG D LMI CB 1/2 Sh
> 3x 8 REG D LI CB Sh
> 2x 8 IRR C LC JLS B Sh
>
> The idea is to roll good terrain and control it with LHI. The LTS runs with
the knights. I have enough lights (buy the LI all shielded, so you can stretch
out four stands wide, not shoot, and make the enemy get rid of you) - and
terrain control, so I can usually get my body of LTS and knights on something
like LMI, who don't want to fight the LTS and don't dare skirmish against the
knights/HC. The little 8 figure LHI units are effective against foot if used
properly, and if cavalry comes after them, they will find knights waiting.
Elephants are not fun, but there are very few elephant armies that can play with
me in terrain I choose. I usually try to be patient and make him march forward
of the terrain that I control in order to get at something the elephants can
kill. The same holds true of armies with large units. Make him march forward of
terrain he can't kick me out of, and force his attack on my terms. This is the
big reason I buy so many 8's of the LHI.

My day to disagree with folk, I guess. I would have supported the
knights with CB (and taken a lot more CB guys) rather than LTS (who are
vulnerable to almost everything). I would take a lot more knights ala
your second list - with only 3 real units that you want to fight with
here, your hitting power is pretty small.

And I am very, very surprised on your statement about elephant armies.
Even my Seleucids, who are about the most terrain-averse force around,
have peltasts, thorakitoi, and [regular!] Thracians who will happily
play in terrain, and LI/LC to screen the rest. And that leaves me all
my pikes, four elephant units, and the cav to go hunting with; if you
get two max-size brush areas both in the central sector before I get one
open space, then I might have a small difficulty, but (i) that's rare
and (ii) you have to come kill me just as much as you would like me to
come to you .

Other elephant armies - Champa, Khmer, whatever - are going to be just
at home in the brush as you are, I would have thought. And you're
giving to your natural targets - Irr LMI - a playground; I don't
understand why you think that opposing LMI will face your knights in the
open rather than charging your guys impetuously in the brush..

...as ever, I could be missing something, and only resolution would be
on the table..

Oh, and I'd use HC as back ranks, too .

E

[joncleaves]

In a message dated Tue, 25 Jun 2002 1:25:52 PM Eastern Standard Time,
ewan.mcnay@... writes:

<<> I don't think that the historical nature of the matchups or otherwise really
has anything to do with it. Mongols can quite happily beat Teuts if given
space; in a cramped environment such as current 25mm in most cases, no chance.>>

As you so correctly pointed out in another post, Ewan, it is far more often the
general and not the lead. I am not disputing that mongols *can* or *cannot*
beat Teuts (or anyone else), I am discussing trends only. The trend is that
terrain and table size combine to make life hard for cav armies in open
tourneys. In addition, the ahistorical nature of things like knights v pila
DOES play a role in open tourney choices and results as a TREND.
Please don't confuse what I am saying with what you personally have done or
think you can do again... :)

J
>
> Ewan

[joncleaves]

In a message dated Tue, 25 Jun 2002 1:41:32 PM Eastern Standard Time,
ewan.mcnay@... writes:

<<... and only resolution would be on the table.>>

Amen to THAT.

[Ewan McNay]

JonCleaves@... wrote:
> In a message dated Tue, 25 Jun 2002 1:25:52 PM Eastern Standard Time,
ewan.mcnay@... writes:
> <<> I don't think that the historical nature of the matchups or otherwise
really has anything to do with it. Mongols can quite happily beat Teuts if
given space; in a cramped environment such as current 25mm in most cases, no
chance.>>
>
> As you so correctly pointed out in another post, Ewan, it is far more often
the general and not the lead. I am not disputing that mongols *can* or *cannot*
beat Teuts (or anyone else), I am discussing trends only. The trend is that
terrain and table size combine to make life hard for cav armies in open
tourneys.
Sure - we mostly agree; I disputed only the 'terrain' element of your
statements. If table size were not a factor, I don't think that terrain
would be either; nor do I honestly think that terrain plays more than a
very minor role in almost all current table-size games.

> Please don't confuse what I am saying with what you personally have done or
think you can do again... :)

:-P ;)

--- In WarriorRules@y..., JonCleaves@a... wrote:
>
> What I would like to see is more and more 'theme' or 'in-period'
tourneys. Wouldn't want them all to be that way, because my Han
don't have many historical opponents...lol..but we need to do more
historical stuff in and out of tournaments.
>
> Jon

Agreed. Amen. Yes.

Warrior suffers more than DBM from non-historical match ups since it
classes troops based on absolute rather than relative
characteristics. I know the intention is to make the best historical
rules set possible, so I hope the Hos don't read that above sentence
as a criticism. It isn't.

John Meunier

[joncleaves]

Ewan says

<< >>

Man, I am sooooo glad you took that in the spirit it was intended. It's about
time....

:)

[Greg Regets]

Ewan ...

This is great and just goes to show how different players see things
differently. I hope we see more of this on this board.

No way am I rolling for brush against an army with loose order LTS guys. Why
would I roll for something that they can fight in? Against a Seleucid, If the
Thracians want to come play in the terrain, they will have to go it alone. :)

Ok Ewan, you lost me with the IRR LMI comment. I think its my natural killing
zone, not his. I usually let this type of troop charge one unit, a 16 in column,
and he does one, perhaps two CPF and recoils me. Then he gets hit by a few 8's
JLS next bound who get charging and he is no longer impetuous. I recoil him and
the following bound when I get following up, he is history. Champa etc ... will
be close in the terrain, but my experience has been that elephants are so
expensive, most guys buys loose order as LMI. LHI will take LMI given enough
time.

There are times I run the CB with knights but don't like to take that many LMI
CB, as I do not want to tie my few units of knights to a strategy of defending
them. The HC back rankers are a puzzle. I have done it several times and wished
I hadn't.

The LTS guys are a mystery to me also. I know they suck, but whenever I don't
buy them, I wish I had. You are not alone in thinking I should not use them,
everyone around here thinks the same way. BUT, almost everything that kills the
LTS other than elephants, will be killed by the knights. Everybody comes after
them like they are my baggage camp or something, and I put them in column and
counter-attack with other stuff next bound. I sure wish they were pikes or the
Big Red 1, but its what I get that can do this job.

As for using so few knights on my base list, that came from post fight analysis.
I found that a rarely used more than three units, other than when I wanted to
use my other list, so I stopped buying the fourth I originally had on my base
list. This allowed me all that upgrading to LHI and buying them in small units,
which has really payed off against IRR LMI and elephants.... haha (I couldn't
resist!).

I will say this though, as I get more troops painted for this army in 25mm, I
will be playing better lists. Probably a list with four knights and less
infantry, and a second of artillery hell for elephant armies.

Lastly, Jon's comments about generalship is very good. There is a certain
benefit to be gained by doing what others don't do. This works well in sports
and can work well here too in my opinion.

----- Original Message -----
From: Ewan
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 1:41 PM
Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] Knight Lists/Battle reports


"Greggory A. Regets" wrote:
>
> I have been doing alright with Knights of St. John, running the following
1600 point list:
>
> 1x C-inC & 5 REG A SHK L Sh
> 1x 2-in-C & 5 REG A SHK L Sh
> 1x Sub & 5 IRR B SHK L Sh
> 1x 6 REG B HC L Sh
> 2x 16 REG C HI LTS Sh
> 1x 16 REG C LHI JLS Sh
> 4x 8 REG C LHI JLS Sh
> 1x 16 REG C LHI 1/2 CB 2HCT Sh, 1/2 CB
> 1x 16 REG D LMI CB 1/2 Sh
> 3x 8 REG D LI CB Sh
> 2x 8 IRR C LC JLS B Sh
>
> The idea is to roll good terrain and control it with LHI. The LTS runs with
the knights. I have enough lights (buy the LI all shielded, so you can stretch
out four stands wide, not shoot, and make the enemy get rid of you) - and
terrain control, so I can usually get my body of LTS and knights on something
like LMI, who don't want to fight the LTS and don't dare skirmish against the
knights/HC. The little 8 figure LHI units are effective against foot if used
properly, and if cavalry comes after them, they will find knights waiting.
Elephants are not fun, but there are very few elephant armies that can play with
me in terrain I choose. I usually try to be patient and make him march forward
of the terrain that I control in order to get at something the elephants can
kill. The same holds true of armies with large units. Make him march forward of
terrain he can't kick me out of, and force his attack on my terms. This is the
big reason I buy so many 8's of the LHI.

My day to disagree with folk, I guess. I would have supported the
knights with CB (and taken a lot more CB guys) rather than LTS (who are
vulnerable to almost everything). I would take a lot more knights ala
your second list - with only 3 real units that you want to fight with
here, your hitting power is pretty small.

And I am very, very surprised on your statement about elephant armies.
Even my Seleucids, who are about the most terrain-averse force around,
have peltasts, thorakitoi, and [regular!] Thracians who will happily
play in terrain, and LI/LC to screen the rest. And that leaves me all
my pikes, four elephant units, and the cav to go hunting with; if you
get two max-size brush areas both in the central sector before I get one
open space, then I might have a small difficulty, but (i) that's rare
and (ii) you have to come kill me just as much as you would like me to
come to you .

Other elephant armies - Champa, Khmer, whatever - are going to be just
at home in the brush as you are, I would have thought. And you're
giving to your natural targets - Irr LMI - a playground; I don't
understand why you think that opposing LMI will face your knights in the
open rather than charging your guys impetuously in the brush..

...as ever, I could be missing something, and only resolution would be
on the table..

Oh, and I'd use HC as back ranks, too .

E

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[Greg Regets]

PS ... Lets keep this stuff going! Nothing will help new players or get more
people fired up to spread this game more than discussions about tactics!

Greg
----- Original Message -----
From: Greggory A. Regets
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 3:21 PM
Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] Knight Lists/Battle reports


Ewan ...

This is great and just goes to show how different players see things
differently. I hope we see more of this on this board.

No way am I rolling for brush against an army with loose order LTS guys. Why
would I roll for something that they can fight in? Against a Seleucid, If the
Thracians want to come play in the terrain, they will have to go it alone. :)

Ok Ewan, you lost me with the IRR LMI comment. I think its my natural killing
zone, not his. I usually let this type of troop charge one unit, a 16 in column,
and he does one, perhaps two CPF and recoils me. Then he gets hit by a few 8's
JLS next bound who get charging and he is no longer impetuous. I recoil him and
the following bound when I get following up, he is history. Champa etc ... will
be close in the terrain, but my experience has been that elephants are so
expensive, most guys buys loose order as LMI. LHI will take LMI given enough
time.

There are times I run the CB with knights but don't like to take that many LMI
CB, as I do not want to tie my few units of knights to a strategy of defending
them. The HC back rankers are a puzzle. I have done it several times and wished
I hadn't.

The LTS guys are a mystery to me also. I know they suck, but whenever I don't
buy them, I wish I had. You are not alone in thinking I should not use them,
everyone around here thinks the same way. BUT, almost everything that kills the
LTS other than elephants, will be killed by the knights. Everybody comes after
them like they are my baggage camp or something, and I put them in column and
counter-attack with other stuff next bound. I sure wish they were pikes or the
Big Red 1, but its what I get that can do this job.

As for using so few knights on my base list, that came from post fight
analysis. I found that a rarely used more than three units, other than when I
wanted to use my other list, so I stopped buying the fourth I originally had on
my base list. This allowed me all that upgrading to LHI and buying them in small
units, which has really payed off against IRR LMI and elephants.... haha (I
couldn't resist!).

I will say this though, as I get more troops painted for this army in 25mm, I
will be playing better lists. Probably a list with four knights and less
infantry, and a second of artillery hell for elephant armies.

Lastly, Jon's comments about generalship is very good. There is a certain
benefit to be gained by doing what others don't do. This works well in sports
and can work well here too in my opinion.

----- Original Message -----
From: Ewan
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 1:41 PM
Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] Knight Lists/Battle reports


"Greggory A. Regets" wrote:
>
> I have been doing alright with Knights of St. John, running the following
1600 point list:
>
> 1x C-inC & 5 REG A SHK L Sh
> 1x 2-in-C & 5 REG A SHK L Sh
> 1x Sub & 5 IRR B SHK L Sh
> 1x 6 REG B HC L Sh
> 2x 16 REG C HI LTS Sh
> 1x 16 REG C LHI JLS Sh
> 4x 8 REG C LHI JLS Sh
> 1x 16 REG C LHI 1/2 CB 2HCT Sh, 1/2 CB
> 1x 16 REG D LMI CB 1/2 Sh
> 3x 8 REG D LI CB Sh
> 2x 8 IRR C LC JLS B Sh
>
> The idea is to roll good terrain and control it with LHI. The LTS runs
with the knights. I have enough lights (buy the LI all shielded, so you can
stretch out four stands wide, not shoot, and make the enemy get rid of you) -
and terrain control, so I can usually get my body of LTS and knights on
something like LMI, who don't want to fight the LTS and don't dare skirmish
against the knights/HC. The little 8 figure LHI units are effective against foot
if used properly, and if cavalry comes after them, they will find knights
waiting. Elephants are not fun, but there are very few elephant armies that can
play with me in terrain I choose. I usually try to be patient and make him march
forward of the terrain that I control in order to get at something the elephants
can kill. The same holds true of armies with large units. Make him march forward
of terrain he can't kick me out of, and force his attack on my terms. This is
the big reason I buy so many 8's of the LHI.

My day to disagree with folk, I guess. I would have supported the
knights with CB (and taken a lot more CB guys) rather than LTS (who are
vulnerable to almost everything). I would take a lot more knights ala
your second list - with only 3 real units that you want to fight with
here, your hitting power is pretty small.

And I am very, very surprised on your statement about elephant armies.
Even my Seleucids, who are about the most terrain-averse force around,
have peltasts, thorakitoi, and [regular!] Thracians who will happily
play in terrain, and LI/LC to screen the rest. And that leaves me all
my pikes, four elephant units, and the cav to go hunting with; if you
get two max-size brush areas both in the central sector before I get one
open space, then I might have a small difficulty, but (i) that's rare
and (ii) you have to come kill me just as much as you would like me to
come to you .

Other elephant armies - Champa, Khmer, whatever - are going to be just
at home in the brush as you are, I would have thought. And you're
giving to your natural targets - Irr LMI - a playground; I don't
understand why you think that opposing LMI will face your knights in the
open rather than charging your guys impetuously in the brush..

...as ever, I could be missing something, and only resolution would be
on the table..

Oh, and I'd use HC as back ranks, too .

E

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]