Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

Suddenly thanks to Chariot, Essex and Outpost there is a terrific
variety of mailed legionaries in 15mm to chose among. So I'd like to
get going organizing, painting on an army for "Warrior."
Unfortunately I see there is currently a wait of approximately 11
months while the pertinent army list is being prepared.

In the meantime could anyone please share any LIR lists they've
compiled? The only thing I'd like to have is NO artillery, if
possible, as I'm not convinced field army units contained ballistae or
any other similar weapons.

thanks

Jim McDaniel

[Greg Regets]

This is a take-off on a LIR list I have used in the past in 15mm. I always used
the artillery, but modified the list as if it didn't exist.

1x C-in-C & 5 REG B HC JLS Sh @155
1x 2-in-C & 5 REG B HC JLS Sh @105
2x 6 Catafractarii REG B HC L Sh @76ea

4x 8 Legionarii REG B MI HTW JLS D Sh @66ea

2x 16 Auxilia REG B LMI JLS D Sh @106ea
2x 8 Auxilia REG B LHI JLS D Sh @74ea

1x 24 Auxilia Archers REG D LMI B Sh @52
1x 12 Fundatores REG D LI S Sh @46

1x 4 Dromedarii REG D LC JLS Sh @46
2x 4 Eq. Illyricani REG B LC JLS Sh @46ea
3x 8 Hunnic Mercs IRR C LC JLS B Sh @81ea
1x 8 Arab Foederati IRR C LC L Sh @73

Reasonably simple list really. The idea is to at least break even in terrain,
kill all the enemy skirmishers with your superior skirmishers and foot archers,
and get you limited number of Legionarii and lancer cavalry well set up for a
few very good kills. This will usually pile up several hundred points, and give
you big enough wins to advance.

What I like about a list like this, is that it is much more safe than the list
with large numbers of Legionarii and Auxilia. Having ridden over a bunch of LIR
armies organized in that way using my KN.ofSt.J, I feel this is a more
reasonable alternative. You certainly could consider a list like that as your
second list at a tourney.

Greg
gar@...


----- Original Message -----
From: leg6victrix
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 8:43 PM
Subject: [WarriorRules] Late Imperial Roman Help


Suddenly thanks to Chariot, Essex and Outpost there is a terrific
variety of mailed legionaries in 15mm to chose among. So I'd like to
get going organizing, painting on an army for "Warrior."
Unfortunately I see there is currently a wait of approximately 11
months while the pertinent army list is being prepared.

In the meantime could anyone please share any LIR lists they've
compiled? The only thing I'd like to have is NO artillery, if
possible, as I'm not convinced field army units contained ballistae or
any other similar weapons.

thanks

Jim McDaniel


Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT



To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
WarriorRules-unsubscribe@egroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Do you find smaller units of infantry better thn the old large 12 stands?
v


>From: "Greggory A. Regets" <gar@...>
>Reply-To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
>To: <WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com>
>Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] Late Imperial Roman Help
>Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 08:10:49 -0500
>
>This is a take-off on a LIR list I have used in the past in 15mm. I always
>used the artillery, but modified the list as if it didn't exist.
>
>1x C-in-C & 5 REG B HC JLS Sh @155
>1x 2-in-C & 5 REG B HC JLS Sh @105
>2x 6 Catafractarii REG B HC L Sh @76ea
>
>4x 8 Legionarii REG B MI HTW JLS D Sh @66ea
>
>2x 16 Auxilia REG B LMI JLS D Sh @106ea
>2x 8 Auxilia REG B LHI JLS D Sh @74ea
>
>1x 24 Auxilia Archers REG D LMI B Sh @52
>1x 12 Fundatores REG D LI S Sh @46
>
>1x 4 Dromedarii REG D LC JLS Sh @46
>2x 4 Eq. Illyricani REG B LC JLS Sh @46ea
>3x 8 Hunnic Mercs IRR C LC JLS B Sh @81ea
>1x 8 Arab Foederati IRR C LC L Sh @73
>
>Reasonably simple list really. The idea is to at least break even in
>terrain, kill all the enemy skirmishers with your superior skirmishers and
>foot archers, and get you limited number of Legionarii and lancer cavalry
>well set up for a few very good kills. This will usually pile up several
>hundred points, and give you big enough wins to advance.
>
>What I like about a list like this, is that it is much more safe than the
>list with large numbers of Legionarii and Auxilia. Having ridden over a
>bunch of LIR armies organized in that way using my KN.ofSt.J, I feel this
>is a more reasonable alternative. You certainly could consider a list like
>that as your second list at a tourney.
>
>Greg
>gar@...
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: leg6victrix
> To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 8:43 PM
> Subject: [WarriorRules] Late Imperial Roman Help
>
>
> Suddenly thanks to Chariot, Essex and Outpost there is a terrific
> variety of mailed legionaries in 15mm to chose among. So I'd like to
> get going organizing, painting on an army for "Warrior."
> Unfortunately I see there is currently a wait of approximately 11
> months while the pertinent army list is being prepared.
>
> In the meantime could anyone please share any LIR lists they've
> compiled? The only thing I'd like to have is NO artillery, if
> possible, as I'm not convinced field army units contained ballistae or
> any other similar weapons.
>
> thanks
>
> Jim McDaniel
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> WarriorRules-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>




Regards,
Vaughn McCurry


“A nation that draws too broad a difference between its scholars and its
warriors will have its thinking being done by cowards and its fighting by
fools.”—Thucydides, c. 460-400 B.C.

Irish Blessing:

"May those that loves us, love us, And those that don't love us, May God
turn their hearts;

And if He doesn't turn their hearts, may He turn their ankles so we'll know
them by their limping."

- Anonymous


_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx

[Todd Kaeser]

In my humble opinion:

One of the problems w/ Late Roman is that it really
needs 3 lists, 1 for each:

knights/EHC and up
elephants/barbarians
pike

With only 2 lists the roman player is forced to play
knights and elephants/barbarians and has to outplay
the pike army w/ the elephant list.

In 15mm there is so much space on the table that a lot
of players will be cav heavy vs. the knights/EHC.
Lots of 4 and 8 man Reg LC and I've even seen an 18
man Reg D LC B unit be effective. Auxilia are also
common w/ the 24 Reg D LMI B,Sh and lots of 16's of
Reg B Jls,S,Sh Aux. Some Clibinari add some punch,
but this mix while it stays alive better vs. the
knights doesn't have the teeth to kill the tougher
units. In 25's artillery is a must - not enough space
to dance and even then it doesn't usually help.

Elephants and barbarians will die vs. triple armed
legions and the reg Aux can easily hold the rough. I
like the legions in 24's (w/o bows) - move them in
column and expand out when approaching close. They're
much more flexible this way.

Just my 2 cents,

Todd Kaeser

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

[Greg Regets]

Hello Vaughn ...

To me, the tactical flexibility afforded by having some smaller units is worth
the cost in points and the fragile nature of these units. I'm not saying this is
right, just that to me, it is worth it. It is true that quite often I end up
pushing two or three one element frontage infantry units together to fight, and
in that instance I have thrown away points and increased raw waver test numbers
in the event that waver becomes an issue, but it is also true that many times
the infantry will combine with the small cavalry units, making skirmishing in
front of my close order foot, problematic at best.

In general Vaughn, if you ask this question to ten players, you will probably
get ten different answers. John Green in Baton Rouge, is a past National
Champion in NASAMW, and is a strong proponent of very large units. I have played
him several times lately when he has had only ten or eleven units on the table,
and yet was successful enough to reach our finals game. I suppose it has to do
with temperment and how a player is planning on gaining his victory. That is a
bit of an obvious statement, but also a true one.

Greg

P.S. We will be playing some weekend soon. Come down and push some lead if you
like. You can flop on my sofa.


----- Original Message -----
From: vaughn mccurry
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, August 05, 2002 10:20 AM
Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] Late Imperial Roman Help


Do you find smaller units of infantry better thn the old large 12 stands?
v


>From: "Greggory A. Regets" <gar@...>
>Reply-To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
>To: <WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com>
>Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] Late Imperial Roman Help
>Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 08:10:49 -0500
>
>This is a take-off on a LIR list I have used in the past in 15mm. I always
>used the artillery, but modified the list as if it didn't exist.
>
>1x C-in-C & 5 REG B HC JLS Sh @155
>1x 2-in-C & 5 REG B HC JLS Sh @105
>2x 6 Catafractarii REG B HC L Sh @76ea
>
>4x 8 Legionarii REG B MI HTW JLS D Sh @66ea
>
>2x 16 Auxilia REG B LMI JLS D Sh @106ea
>2x 8 Auxilia REG B LHI JLS D Sh @74ea
>
>1x 24 Auxilia Archers REG D LMI B Sh @52
>1x 12 Fundatores REG D LI S Sh @46
>
>1x 4 Dromedarii REG D LC JLS Sh @46
>2x 4 Eq. Illyricani REG B LC JLS Sh @46ea
>3x 8 Hunnic Mercs IRR C LC JLS B Sh @81ea
>1x 8 Arab Foederati IRR C LC L Sh @73
>
>Reasonably simple list really. The idea is to at least break even in
>terrain, kill all the enemy skirmishers with your superior skirmishers and
>foot archers, and get you limited number of Legionarii and lancer cavalry
>well set up for a few very good kills. This will usually pile up several
>hundred points, and give you big enough wins to advance.
>
>What I like about a list like this, is that it is much more safe than the
>list with large numbers of Legionarii and Auxilia. Having ridden over a
>bunch of LIR armies organized in that way using my KN.ofSt.J, I feel this
>is a more reasonable alternative. You certainly could consider a list like
>that as your second list at a tourney.
>
>Greg
>gar@...
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: leg6victrix
> To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 8:43 PM
> Subject: [WarriorRules] Late Imperial Roman Help
>
>
> Suddenly thanks to Chariot, Essex and Outpost there is a terrific
> variety of mailed legionaries in 15mm to chose among. So I'd like to
> get going organizing, painting on an army for "Warrior."
> Unfortunately I see there is currently a wait of approximately 11
> months while the pertinent army list is being prepared.
>
> In the meantime could anyone please share any LIR lists they've
> compiled? The only thing I'd like to have is NO artillery, if
> possible, as I'm not convinced field army units contained ballistae or
> any other similar weapons.
>
> thanks
>
> Jim McDaniel
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> WarriorRules-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>




Regards,
Vaughn McCurry


"A nation that draws too broad a difference between its scholars and its
warriors will have its thinking being done by cowards and its fighting by
fools."-Thucydides, c. 460-400 B.C.

Irish Blessing:

"May those that loves us, love us, And those that don't love us, May God
turn their hearts;

And if He doesn't turn their hearts, may He turn their ankles so we'll know
them by their limping."

- Anonymous


_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
WarriorRules-unsubscribe@egroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Ewan McNay]

On Mon, 5 Aug 2002, Todd Kaeser wrote:
> Elephants and barbarians will die vs. triple armed
> legions and the reg Aux can easily hold the rough. I
> like the legions in 24's (w/o bows) - move them in
> column and expand out when approaching close. They're
> much more flexible this way.

I agree with this usage; I used (when I actually played Romans) to run
both legions and auxilia in 36-man units (12 archers/24 normal) but it got
just too unwieldy; it's stil a strong way to play if your spatial
abilities are very good.

I actually don't think that it's a problem only having two lists, though;
essentially I would take a legion-strong and a legion-poor (i.e. absent)
list. In 15mm, however, getting legions to fight is an art; at least they
can shoot, unlike pikemen, but are usually not sufficiently numerous to
push across the whole table as pike sometimes can. Making them Reg D can
help with this problem, and I do that; if you're taking wavers with the
legions then you're in trouble anyway...

And I have never, I think, used artillery of any kind. Not that it's bad
- I just don't know.

Echoing Todd again, the LIR have realy only two ways to kill things: hit
infantry with legions, or shoot them to death. Your list(s) should be
aimed at one of these two approaches.

Congrats to Chris D., who must have played magnificently to get Patricians
through what I am sure was a knight-infested tournament. And thanks to
Jon for the AAR - I hope that it is only the first of several (hint,
hint).

Ewan

[joncleaves]

Ewan

The NICT was far from K-infested. I could hardly believe the armies in it.
You'll cry for not being there:
2xHsiung Nu
Sung
Han
Patricians
Viganagarya
LIR
Carthaginians
Midianites
don't remember the rest, but it wasn't a lot of K

Jon

[Ewan McNay]

Wow.

Yeah, that's pretty non-knightly alright. But I didn't even get an invite
this year .

E

On Mon, 5 Aug 2002 JonCleaves@... wrote:

> Ewan
>
> The NICT was far from K-infested. I could hardly believe the armies in it.
You'll cry for not being there:
> 2xHsiung Nu
> Sung
> Han
> Patricians
> Viganagarya
> LIR
> Carthaginians
> Midianites
> don't remember the rest, but it wasn't a lot of K
>
> Jon
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> WarriorRules-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Its been a long time since I played LIR in WRG 7th ED / Warrior, but
my thoughts on playing the LIR was to organize my army along what
I "felt" were historical lines (no laughing....). My collection
repersents one of the field armies normally stationed in the
Balkans. What I thought "felt" historical was 3-4 4-fig units of
light horse and 3-4 6-fig units of heavy cav, all high morale. A
couple of units of 8 fig light inf, 4 units of Auxilia and 3 Legions
organized into 2 commands. The Auxilia and Legions are organized
into 24 fig (each 1/3 B, SH in the third rank) units plus the Legions
all have 4 fig light inf detachments. This list forces you to fight
with the foot and delay with the mounted which "felt" right to me.
Obviously terrain is important. I was pretty successful against most
non-knight armies with this list and the third rank of bow in the
foot units along with detachments of Legionary slingers allowed you
to deal with some knights. However, against full-scale knight
armies, I would normally chicken out and go to list 2.......(you know
the one with all the light horse).... :)

P.S. In DBM, this list worked pretty good for me also. My LIR mantra
in DBM was always "fight with the foot, not the mounted". :)


--- In WarriorRules@y..., ewan.mcnay@y... wrote:
> Wow.
>
> Yeah, that's pretty non-knightly alright. But I didn't even get an
invite
> this year .
>
> E
>
> On Mon, 5 Aug 2002 JonCleaves@a... wrote:
>
> > Ewan
> >
> > The NICT was far from K-infested. I could hardly believe the
armies in it. You'll cry for not being there:
> > 2xHsiung Nu
> > Sung
> > Han
> > Patricians
> > Viganagarya
> > LIR
> > Carthaginians
> > Midianites
> > don't remember the rest, but it wasn't a lot of K
> >
> > Jon
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > WarriorRules-unsubscribe@e...
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >

[Chris Bump]

In a message dated 08/06/2002 2:39:35 PM Central Daylight Time,
jpwhite@... writes:

<< For 25 mm, I had a lot of success with the light bolt shooters positioned
between the legionary units. The dart armed legionaires were very effective
in clearing off light infantry from the artillery shooting arc and allowing
the artillery to hammer small high value targets. The light bolt shooters
are slow but usually could keep up with legions by marching once in a while.

Cart mounted bolt shooters are too expensive to achieve the needed fire
power in my experience. I never cared for stone throwing engines because of
the extra turn of delay before shooting. I never had an army with heavy
bolt shooters but they should be as effective as light bolt shooters, less
fire density but faster movement.

Jamie White >>

Would tend to agree in part but definintely support the mounting of bolt
shooters on carts. Out here Don prefers the "grand battery" approach
putting 4 bolt shooters in a single unit. I prefer to keep 2 seperate
batteries and interspace them between legion units, particulary when facing
knights. The shear fact that mounting the bolt shooters on carts gives them
360 arch of fire makes them cost effective. In 25mm there is no way to skirt
this kind of arch of fire. They are one of the great equalizers for the Late
Romans against Knights. With the much more defined gap rules it is possible
to shield them from assault while they pick off targets of opportunity.
Chris

For 25 mm, I had a lot of success with the light bolt shooters positioned
between the legionary units. The dart armed legionaires were very effective
in clearing off light infantry from the artillery shooting arc and allowing
the artillery to hammer small high value targets. The light bolt shooters
are slow but usually could keep up with legions by marching once in a while.

Cart mounted bolt shooters are too expensive to achieve the needed fire
power in my experience. I never cared for stone throwing engines because of
the extra turn of delay before shooting. I never had an army with heavy
bolt shooters but they should be as effective as light bolt shooters, less
fire density but faster movement.

Jamie White

----- Original Message -----
From: <ewan.mcnay@...>
To: <WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, August 05, 2002 12:33 PM
Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] Late Imperial Roman Help


> On Mon, 5 Aug 2002, Todd Kaeser wrote:
> > Elephants and barbarians will die vs. triple armed
> > legions and the reg Aux can easily hold the rough. I
> > like the legions in 24's (w/o bows) - move them in
> > column and expand out when approaching close. They're
> > much more flexible this way.
>
> I agree with this usage; I used (when I actually played Romans) to run
> both legions and auxilia in 36-man units (12 archers/24 normal) but it got
> just too unwieldy; it's stil a strong way to play if your spatial
> abilities are very good.
>
> I actually don't think that it's a problem only having two lists, though;
> essentially I would take a legion-strong and a legion-poor (i.e. absent)
> list. In 15mm, however, getting legions to fight is an art; at least they
> can shoot, unlike pikemen, but are usually not sufficiently numerous to
> push across the whole table as pike sometimes can. Making them Reg D can
> help with this problem, and I do that; if you're taking wavers with the
> legions then you're in trouble anyway...
>
> And I have never, I think, used artillery of any kind. Not that it's bad
> - I just don't know.
>
> Echoing Todd again, the LIR have realy only two ways to kill things: hit
> infantry with legions, or shoot them to death. Your list(s) should be
> aimed at one of these two approaches.
>
> Congrats to Chris D., who must have played magnificently to get Patricians
> through what I am sure was a knight-infested tournament. And thanks to
> Jon for the AAR - I hope that it is only the first of several (hint,
> hint).
>
> Ewan
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> WarriorRules-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

[Jake Kovel]

In a message dated 8/5/02 12:35:22 PM, ewan.mcnay@... writes:

>Congrats to Chris D., who must have played magnificently to get Patricians
>through what I am sure was a knight-infested tournament. And thanks to
>Jon for the AAR - I hope that it is only the first of several (hint,
>hint).
>

Actually, the tournament was Chinese infested with Han, Sung, Yuan and 2
Hsiung Nu. There was only 1 true knight army, Communal Italian. There were
also 2 Seluecid, a Mithridatic, an Indian, a Midianite, an Aztec, an Anglo
Irish, a Nikephorian Byzantine, an Ayyubid, a Japanese and a Late imperial
Roman, plus of course, the Patricians.

As the umpire for the event I can say that everybody was well behaved and
there were very few problems. I only had to make one "because I said so"
decision, and both players agreed it was the right choice. However, you
gentlemen certainly can position yourselves into very unusual circumstances.

Jacob Kovel

[Greg Regets]

Remember, the request for info was related to the 15mm LIR army. I'm sure very
few question the effectiveness of artillery in 25mm, but in 15mm I'm of the
opinion that you are better off purchasing something that can threaten the
flanks. For all that has been stated here, that is the real power of the 15mm
LIR army in my opinion. It is an army that does not allow an opponent to thin
out the middle to support the flanks, because of the LIR's strong shock element,
and what you have on the wings, Huns, high moral LC and good loose/open foot, is
very good.

Bottom line ... it is clear that every post represents a different opinion. Buy
lots of figures, plan on having about 3,000 points of LIR, and do what works for
you!

Greg

----- Original Message -----
From: cncbump@...
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 3:02 PM
Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] Late Imperial Roman Help


In a message dated 08/06/2002 2:39:35 PM Central Daylight Time,
jpwhite@... writes:

<< For 25 mm, I had a lot of success with the light bolt shooters positioned
between the legionary units. The dart armed legionaires were very effective
in clearing off light infantry from the artillery shooting arc and allowing
the artillery to hammer small high value targets. The light bolt shooters
are slow but usually could keep up with legions by marching once in a while.

Cart mounted bolt shooters are too expensive to achieve the needed fire
power in my experience. I never cared for stone throwing engines because of
the extra turn of delay before shooting. I never had an army with heavy
bolt shooters but they should be as effective as light bolt shooters, less
fire density but faster movement.

Jamie White >>

Would tend to agree in part but definintely support the mounting of bolt
shooters on carts. Out here Don prefers the "grand battery" approach
putting 4 bolt shooters in a single unit. I prefer to keep 2 seperate
batteries and interspace them between legion units, particulary when facing
knights. The shear fact that mounting the bolt shooters on carts gives them
360 arch of fire makes them cost effective. In 25mm there is no way to skirt
this kind of arch of fire. They are one of the great equalizers for the Late
Romans against Knights. With the much more defined gap rules it is possible
to shield them from assault while they pick off targets of opportunity.
Chris

Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT



To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
WarriorRules-unsubscribe@egroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks greatly for all the advice and now I'll start working on it.

best regards and good luck

Jim McDaniel