Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[Frank Gilson]

Later Polish has received some significant recent attention. Here's my take,
with explanation:
CinC w/PA in 2E Reg A/B SHK L,Sh
Sub w/P in 2E Reg A/B SHK L,Sh
4 units of 2E Irr B/C SHK/HK L,Sh
2E Irr C LC CB (sadly only 1/2 of these can be made Reg C)
7E Irr C HI(3E) 2HCT,Sh/MI(3E) JLS,Sh/LMI(1E) JLS,Sh
2 units of 6E Reg C LMI B,Sh/JLS,B,Sh
3 units of 2E Reg D LI B,Sh
2 units of 4E Irr B LC L,JLS,Sh
2 units of 2E Reg C LC JLS,B/B
2E Reg C LC B
1603 points, 2 commands, 18 units, 51 scouting points

I like the fact that I've got two regular high morale knight units, even if
expensive. I take a cost cut by using the cheaper back rank HK in the other
units. I have one solid line foot unit, similar to Brigans, although no
pavise, sadly. It counts as 26 figures for shooting and combat, given the
rear loose order element, which matters quite a bit.

Taking that foot unit, and all the archer elements, permits me to have the
two 24 man Reg C shooter units...which are excellent.

The Lithuanian mercenaries are all taken, with Lance in order to fight 1.5
ranks. Soak off some enemy LC/LI shooting with other LC or LI, and then send
in the Lithuanians.

Frank Gilson

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[Mark Stone]

Frank,

I'm convinced by this list that if you're going to play Later Polish, then the
Late period is the way to go. Getting some regular K is a good thing, and
getting regular loose order foot is _definitely_ a good thing.

I worry that this list doesn't have enough light infantry, but that's a general
problem with the Germanic/Slavic knight armies.

I also wonder if it wouldn't be better to put all the JLS,B,Sh foot in one unit,
just so you have one unit that's a strong anti-elephant unit instead of two
units that are mediocre anti-elephant units.

Otherwise, this looks impressive.


-Mark Stone

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 5/12/2004 1:07:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
franktrevorgilson@... writes:

> Here's my take,
> with explanation:
> CinC w/PA in 2E Reg A/B SHK L,Sh
> Sub w/P in 2E Reg A/B SHK L,Sh
> 4 units of 2E Irr B/C SHK/HK L,Sh
> 2E Irr C LC CB (sadly only 1/2 of these can be made Reg C)
> 7E Irr C HI(3E) 2HCT,Sh/MI(3E) JLS,Sh/LMI(1E) JLS,Sh
> 2 units of 6E Reg C LMI B,Sh/JLS,B,Sh
> 3 units of 2E Reg D LI B,Sh
> 2 units of 4E Irr B LC L,JLS,Sh
> 2 units of 2E Reg C LC JLS,B/B
> 2E Reg C LC B
> 1603 points, 2 commands, 18 units, 51 scouting points>>

Frank, I think this is a superb list. I have been working on a recommended list
for the two late pole players we have here and you and I are in agreement on
pretty much everything, fwiw. The only real difference is that I would take
somewhat less LC, but that's just a style thing.

J

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 5/14/2004 20:42:27 Central Daylight Time,
jjmurphy@... writes:
> CinC w/PA in 2E Reg A/B SHK L,Sh
> Sub w/P in 2E Reg A/B SHK L,Sh

Well, that is a bunch of points for a back-rank SHK you do not
_need_, and being the regs of the knight corps now if you drop em off
horses they can not fight well in two ranks. Only advantage I see is
staying SHK if you get disordered. I guess I am grown accustomed to
the point-efficient HYWE.>>

I'm with Frank - always good to have 1-2 all SHK blocks in a knight list.
People can *say* they will never let their K get disordered, but the enemy has a
vote - good to take it away on certain parts of the battlefield.



> 2 units of 6E Reg C LMI B,Sh/JLS,B,Sh

Alas this is a list problem here, only half your (L)HI/MI foot gets
to be Reg C. You took 7E of Irregs but that doesn't let you take 12E
of Regs. Suprised nobody else caught this one, but I have spent a lot
of time and energy on these guys. All those 0-1/2 for the various
Regs, and split into categories to boot, really put a crimp on these
guys.>>

Even I would go a long way before I'd second guess Frank on list writing.
Here he is technically correct. Half of his elements of Polish *foot* have been
made Reg C....the fact that it only allows HI/MI and LHI/LMI to be upgraded
does not change the fact that no more than half of his Polish foot elements are
Reg C. Now as to Scott's INTENT, we'll have to find out about that...lol

Jon


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[John Murphy]

Well, I wouldn't really know but I suspect this is a good list for
competition from someone who comes up with a lot of these. _But_
there are a couple things before everyone jumps on the bandwagon of
how great this particular list is.

> franktrevorgilson@h... writes:

> CinC w/PA in 2E Reg A/B SHK L,Sh
> Sub w/P in 2E Reg A/B SHK L,Sh

Well, that is a bunch of points for a back-rank SHK you do not
_need_, and being the regs of the knight corps now if you drop em off
horses they can not fight well in two ranks. Only advantage I see is
staying SHK if you get disordered. I guess I am grown accustomed to
the point-efficient HYWE.

> 4 units of 2E Irr B/C SHK/HK L,Sh

Now these I like (just too bad you need shields for the back ranks).
And the number is probably about right mixed with the generals and
for a competitive army as opposed to my horde o'SHK army list.

> 2E Irr C LC CB (sadly only 1/2 of these can be made Reg C)

Agreed, but taking these as a 2E unit makes a unit you can not really
get much out of. Kind of 41-points waste where I would be tempted
to "throw good points after bad" to paraphrase the saying. Being
shieldless irrefulars it is not a bad investment of points to bulk
them up into something at least usable. After all, if they can get
into skirmish they can do some damage - but they can certainly also
function as very mobile "shooters to front".

> 2 units of 4E Irr B LC L,JLS,Sh
> 2 units of 2E Reg C LC JLS,B/B
> 2E Reg C LC B

Yeah, Boyd nailed it on the Lithuanians. Unfortunately I am finding
that the JLS and rear Sh (32 points here) are almost a total waste in
HtH. But it does give them the possiblity of some normal missile
fire. I'd consider the Serbian Gusars instead of one of these in your
list, though, (unless you think you need the certain impetuosity but
really as pointed out for LC impetuosity-wise the B class may be a
waste also unless you need to counter or suck up missiles) and give
the 3rd Tarts unit front-rank goodies with the points saved.

Your Tartars are a in fact bit different from my approach, probably
to your credit. But they also leave you with no larger LC missile
units (of which the Poles can have some very well optimized), but you
have the foot below for that function so okay (works better with your
HYWE though). I go with front-rank JLS & Sh for all the Tartars, but
I would probably opt for the shields before the JLS for HtH
survivability with such small units. Or neither if I wa not planning
on permitting them to get into HtH - but I think you need to allow
for that as they can be handy with so few Liths/Serbs.

> 7E Irr C HI(3E) 2HCT,Sh/MI(3E) JLS,Sh/LMI(1E) JLS,Sh

After considering the Poles in light of your HYWE shock list and the
brief duh-John Brigans discussion I noticed these guys for exactly
the same reason, though I did not put the LMI in back - a quirky
thing I'd be inclined to spend points on somewhere else.

No S standard ad no Pa, so not invulnerable to shooting (though a
tough target) and might not break every foot unit on contact if they
get a cause of unease. Still...

> 2 units of 6E Reg C LMI B,Sh/JLS,B,Sh

Alas this is a list problem here, only half your (L)HI/MI foot gets
to be Reg C. You took 7E of Irregs but that doesn't let you take 12E
of Regs. Suprised nobody else caught this one, but I have spent a lot
of time and energy on these guys. All those 0-1/2 for the various
Regs, and split into categories to boot, really put a crimp on these
guys.

Can't be close order either so no 4/stand shooters without taking
some more Irreg foot somewhere. I'd grab another pseudo-Brigans and
find a way to keep these. LC JLS, Liths vs Serbs, rear-rank SHK are
all possible areas to find the points without making a major change.
Not sure that is enough though.

You can drop the back rank to D class. But see below.

Otherwise a good buy and understandable within the context of the
rest of the army which could use some concentrated firepower.

> 3 units of 2E Reg D LI B,Sh

Once again the 0-1/2 problem gets you, plus as the LI are "archers"
and LMI are "bowmen" as typical in most of the lists so I believe in
fact you can not upgrade _any_ LI to Reg (or give them 2HCW or JLS).
But if you could it would be same issues as above, to make a unit big
enough to warrant using as Irreg there are seldom enough points for
the extravagance of a few Reg units. And maybe the better use of this
would be getting the extra shooters of some Reg LMI.

Anyway, amazingly I follow your reasoning on this (and the HYWE shock
list which I think is better). I would even say I would be
comfortable playing your Polish list in competition were it not for
the Reg upgrade issues. Of course it lacks the same "fun factor" as
my version, at least to my taste, but that is something subject to
individual preferences.