Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

I'm sure this is not new information to many people. But I went to the
effort, so thought I would share.

Just some chart reading of a match up between Caesar's Romans and an equal
point value unit of Gallic warriors. (106 pts. each)

Hypothetical run through (assuming both units in open, level terrain and no
prep shooting fatigue to this point):

9 elements of Irr C LMI JLS,Sh
vs.
4 elements of Reg C HI HTW,Sh

Assume Gauls deployed 4x2 with 1 extra element in solitary third rank. (26
figs for CPF purposes.)

Gauls charge impetuously:

9 figs @ (2+1+2+1)= 45.

Romans fight back:

12 figs @ (5)= 48.

Gauls take 1 CPF and recoil.
Romans take 2 CPF and can stand or follow-up. (If they stand, the Gauls can
rally as steady troops and charge impetuously again if prompted to do so,
giving the Romans the advantage of the pila to use again.)

If Romans follow up, the next bound will be:

12 figs @ (3+1)=36

18 figs @ (2+1)=45

Romans take 2 CPF and recoil.
Gauls take 1 CPF, become tired and can follow up.

The follow up offsets the tired for the Gauls.

Without some dice luck, the Romans will eventually be overwhelmed by the
numerically superior Gauls.

Perhaps the better choice for the Romans is to not follow up the Gauls if
they get the initial recoil.

All this assumes the Romans let a single 4 element unit get attack by a 9
element Gallic unit. And it assumes even die rolls. If the Gauls roll up on
first contact, the Romans take 3 cpf disorder, which changes things a great
deal. If Romans roll up, then Gauls take 2 cpf first bound and are tired
right away.

When all is said and done, an interesting match up.

John Meunier


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Chris Bump]

In a message dated 05/29/2002 3:21:09 PM Central Daylight Time, gar@...
writes:

<< The Auxilia would be back at 120p in a gap the Gauls can't pass (less than
80p) so the Gaul could not declare on the Auxilia. The Auxilia would charge
and cancel the impetuous charge of the Gauls. At best the Gauls could counter
charge.
>>
Greg,
I think you mean 120 paces being as that is the two element gap required to
declare a charge through. But more to the point, I believe that as long as
the charging Auxilia were still in the Charge path of the gauls, the
impetuous charge would still go off., but the auxilia would also be charging
and so would be hitting with 6 @ 5 vs 5@7. If the auxilia were only a few
steps behind the legion, thus creating one of those beautiful "I can charge
you, but you can't charge me" situations, then the auxilia and gauls would
meet somewhere around 60 paces in front of the legion. I totally agree with
your premise because the recoiling auxilia would recoil 40 paces and thus
allow the legion to charge next bound and hit with 6@6 while the receiving
gauls would only hit back with 5@3 since they would get neither charging nor
follow up vs the legionairres. They would of course still get the follow up
vs the auxilia, but that would be something like 5@5 vs 6@3 because the
initial gaul hit was enough to disorder a 2 element auxilia unit.
So the gauls put out somewhere in the neighborhood of 33 hits while the
romans dispense 45. That will be enough when combined with the 24 handed out
by the auxilia last bound to tire those pesky irregulars. Now the regulars
really have the advantage and would probably not follow up so as to be able
to charge next bound with pila and no fear of impetuous override.
Least that is how I quickly add it up in my head.
Chris

[scott holder]

Gauls charge impetuously:
9 figs @ (2+1+2+1)= 45.
Romans fight back:
12 figs @ (5)= 48.
Gauls take 1 CPF and recoil.
Romans take 2 CPF and can stand or follow-up. (If they stand, the Gauls
can rally as steady troops and charge impetuously again if prompted to
do so, giving the Romans the advantage of the pila to use again.)

>Actually, the Gauls recoil 40p and when not followed up, recall back up
to 120p depending on die roll. The Gauls are then stuck there unless
they counter/retire.

Perhaps the better choice for the Romans is to not follow up the Gauls
if
they get the initial recoil.

>You betcha. Moreover, the Romans do not hafta rally so they can move
freely during the next bound's approaches. Assuming no other variables,
the Romans could move to 80p and theoretically charge the Gauls
themselves in the next bound if no impetuous charge is declared against
them. This is one of the joys of regular infantry. Not that I ever
play with any:):)

Scott
List Ho

In a message dated Wed, 29 May 2002  2:30:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, "Holder,
Scott <FHWA>" <Scott.Holder@...> writes:

>Gauls charge impetuously:
>9 figs @ (2+1+2+1)= 45.
>Romans fight back:
>12 figs @ (5)= 48.
>Gauls take 1 CPF and recoil.
>Romans take 2 CPF and can stand or follow-up. (If they stand, the Gauls
>can rally as steady troops and charge impetuously again if prompted to
>do so, giving the Romans the advantage of the pila to use again.)
>
>>Actually, the Gauls recoil 40p and when not followed up, recall back up
>to 120p depending on die roll.  The Gauls are then stuck there unless
>they counter/retire.
>

I don't think so. The Rules Ho and I were just exchanging e-mail on this very
point.

Under TOG, the Gauls would have "rallied back" if the Romans don't follow up.

But in WARRIOR, bodies who recoil without an opponent following-up rally (5.41).
They are neither required nor allowed to make a recall move (6.36). So the Gauls
rally at 40p from the Romans.

Looking at these two sections does raise another question, though.

Under 5.41, troops replaced in combat must rally. The requirements for rally
include (5.42) no moving in any way.

Under 6.36, troops replaced in combat must make a recall move. Under recall
move, the text says troops that recall must rally.

That means, I think, that the language in 5.41 "were replaced in hand-to-hand
combat" is unneeded.

Unless troops replaced in hand-to-hand rally in place. Then after rallying
recall. Then rally again. Which is not what I think the rules mean to say.

John Meunier

[Greg Regets]

Or better yet, on a larger scale, run those Romans in eight figure units with an
occasional 8 figure Auxilia unit in the mix. The Auxilia would be back at 120p
in a gap the Gauls can't pass (less than 80p) so the Gaul could not declare on
the Auxilia. The Auxilia would charge and cancel the impetuous charge of the
Gauls. At best the Gauls could counter charge.

Factor it that way. More fun for the Romans!

These matchups of one unit on one unit are worth nothing if you ask me. That
takes all the advantage away from the Roman player, so it is not apples vs.
apples.

Greg
----- Original Message -----
From: Holder, Scott <FHWA>
To: IPM Return requested (Receipt notification requested)
Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2002 1:25 PM
Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] Legions v. Gauls


Gauls charge impetuously:
9 figs @ (2+1+2+1)= 45.
Romans fight back:
12 figs @ (5)= 48.
Gauls take 1 CPF and recoil.
Romans take 2 CPF and can stand or follow-up. (If they stand, the Gauls
can rally as steady troops and charge impetuously again if prompted to
do so, giving the Romans the advantage of the pila to use again.)

>Actually, the Gauls recoil 40p and when not followed up, recall back up
to 120p depending on die roll. The Gauls are then stuck there unless
they counter/retire.

Perhaps the better choice for the Romans is to not follow up the Gauls
if
they get the initial recoil.

>You betcha. Moreover, the Romans do not hafta rally so they can move
freely during the next bound's approaches. Assuming no other variables,
the Romans could move to 80p and theoretically charge the Gauls
themselves in the next bound if no impetuous charge is declared against
them. This is one of the joys of regular infantry. Not that I ever
play with any:):)

Scott
List Ho















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[Greg Regets]

Chris ...

Fortunately, you read what I wrote much better than I wrote it. :-)

The point is still the same though. If you line up in a straight line and fight
the Gaul, you probably deserve to lose (Scott's point about generalship).

Perhaps that is why we never see John Green play those Early Germans anymore ...
;-)

Greg


----- Original Message -----
From: cncbump@...
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2002 3:57 PM
Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] Legions v. Gauls


In a message dated 05/29/2002 3:21:09 PM Central Daylight Time, gar@...
writes:

<< The Auxilia would be back at 120p in a gap the Gauls can't pass (less than
80p) so the Gaul could not declare on the Auxilia. The Auxilia would charge
and cancel the impetuous charge of the Gauls. At best the Gauls could counter
charge.
>>
Greg,
I think you mean 120 paces being as that is the two element gap required to
declare a charge through. But more to the point, I believe that as long as
the charging Auxilia were still in the Charge path of the gauls, the
impetuous charge would still go off., but the auxilia would also be charging
and so would be hitting with 6 @ 5 vs 5@7. If the auxilia were only a few
steps behind the legion, thus creating one of those beautiful "I can charge
you, but you can't charge me" situations, then the auxilia and gauls would
meet somewhere around 60 paces in front of the legion. I totally agree with
your premise because the recoiling auxilia would recoil 40 paces and thus
allow the legion to charge next bound and hit with 6@6 while the receiving
gauls would only hit back with 5@3 since they would get neither charging nor
follow up vs the legionairres. They would of course still get the follow up
vs the auxilia, but that would be something like 5@5 vs 6@3 because the
initial gaul hit was enough to disorder a 2 element auxilia unit.
So the gauls put out somewhere in the neighborhood of 33 hits while the
romans dispense 45. That will be enough when combined with the 24 handed out
by the auxilia last bound to tire those pesky irregulars. Now the regulars
really have the advantage and would probably not follow up so as to be able
to charge next bound with pila and no fear of impetuous override.
Least that is how I quickly add it up in my head.
Chris

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[Patrick Byrne]

The Gaul player is still available to echelon forward to hit the legionaries
that they declared against, (situation dependant). Sure they may still meet
the auxilia at 60p, but they can echelon another 60p (hitting both Aux and
Leg disordered).
-PB


> From: cncbump@...
> Reply-To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 16:57:33 EDT
> To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] Legions v. Gauls
>
> In a message dated 05/29/2002 3:21:09 PM Central Daylight Time, gar@...
> writes:
>
> << The Auxilia would be back at 120p in a gap the Gauls can't pass (less than
> 80p) so the Gaul could not declare on the Auxilia. The Auxilia would charge
> and cancel the impetuous charge of the Gauls. At best the Gauls could counter
> charge.
>>>
> Greg,
> I think you mean 120 paces being as that is the two element gap required to
> declare a charge through. But more to the point, I believe that as long as
> the charging Auxilia were still in the Charge path of the gauls, the
> impetuous charge would still go off., but the auxilia would also be charging
> and so would be hitting with 6 @ 5 vs 5@7.
> Chris
>

[scott holder]

Slightly incorrect. This is a classic "in the path" issue and since the Gauls
have a legal charge target and can go impetuous, and said charge and the charge
by the Auxilia would presumably be "in their path", then the charge is not
cancelled.

I await corrections from the Rules Ho. Gotta go work on Khwarizmians. I think
this is an army Damour has played in the past, hmmmmm, how can I screw
it?:)

>>> gar@... 05/29/02 15:19 PM >>>
Or better yet, on a larger scale, run those Romans in eight figure units with an
occasional 8 figure Auxilia unit in the mix. The Auxilia would be back at 120p
in a gap the Gauls can't pass (less than 80p) so the Gaul could not declare on
the Auxilia. The Auxilia would charge and cancel the impetuous charge of the
Gauls. At best the Gauls could counter charge.

Factor it that way. More fun for the Romans!

These matchups of one unit on one unit are worth nothing if you ask me. That
takes all the advantage away from the Roman player, so it is not apples vs.
apples.

Greg
----- Original Message -----
From: Holder, Scott <FHWA>
To: IPM Return requested (Receipt notification requested)
Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2002 1:25 PM
Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] Legions v. Gauls


Gauls charge impetuously:
9 figs @ (2+1+2+1)= 45.
Romans fight back:
12 figs @ (5)= 48.
Gauls take 1 CPF and recoil.
Romans take 2 CPF and can stand or follow-up. (If they stand, the Gauls
can rally as steady troops and charge impetuously again if prompted to
do so, giving the Romans the advantage of the pila to use again.)

>Actually, the Gauls recoil 40p and when not followed up, recall back up
to 120p depending on die roll. The Gauls are then stuck there unless
they counter/retire.

Perhaps the btter choice for the Romans is to not follow up the Gauls
if
they get the initial recoil.

>You betcha. Moreover, the Romans do not hafta rally so they can move
freely during the next bound's approaches. Assuming no other variables,
the Romans could move to 80p and theoretically charge the Gauls
themselves in the next bound if no impetuous charge is declared against
them. This is one of the joys of regular infantry. Not that I ever
play with any:):)

Scott
List Ho















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[Greg Regets]

My thought was actually written very poorly Scott. I think Chris interp'ed it
properly for me. I had two thoughts going on at once, and quite frankly, one is
normally far too many. :-)

Greg
----- Original Message -----
From: Scott Holder
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2002 6:16 PM
Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] Legions v. Gauls


Slightly incorrect. This is a classic "in the path" issue and since the Gauls
have a legal charge target and can go impetuous, and said charge and the charge
by the Auxilia would presumably be "in their path", then the charge is not
cancelled.

I await corrections from the Rules Ho. Gotta go work on Khwarizmians. I
think this is an army Damour has played in the past, hmmmmm, how can I screw
it?:)

>>> gar@... 05/29/02 15:19 PM >>>
Or better yet, on a larger scale, run those Romans in eight figure units with
an occasional 8 figure Auxilia unit in the mix. The Auxilia would be back at
120p in a gap the Gauls can't pass (less than 80p) so the Gaul could not declare
on the Auxilia. The Auxilia would charge and cancel the impetuous charge of the
Gauls. At best the Gauls could counter charge.

Factor it that way. More fun for the Romans!

These matchups of one unit on one unit are worth nothing if you ask me. That
takes all the advantage away from the Roman player, so it is not apples vs.
apples.

Greg
----- Original Message -----
From: Holder, Scott <FHWA>
To: IPM Return requested (Receipt notification requested)
Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2002 1:25 PM
Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] Legions v. Gauls


Gauls charge impetuously:
9 figs @ (2+1+2+1)= 45.
Romans fight back:
12 figs @ (5)= 48.
Gauls take 1 CPF and recoil.
Romans take 2 CPF and can stand or follow-up. (If they stand, the Gauls
can rally as steady troops and charge impetuously again if prompted to
do so, giving the Romans the advantage of the pila to use again.)

>Actually, the Gauls recoil 40p and when not followed up, recall back up
to 120p depending on die roll. The Gauls are then stuck there unless
they counter/retire.

Perhaps the btter choice for the Romans is to not follow up the Gauls
if
they get the initial recoil.

>You betcha. Moreover, the Romans do not hafta rally so they can move
freely during the next bound's approaches. Assuming no other variables,
the Romans could move to 80p and theoretically charge the Gauls
themselves in the next bound if no impetuous charge is declared against
them. This is one of the joys of regular infantry. Not that I ever
play with any:):)

Scott
List Ho















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