Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[joncleaves]

Most here understand FHE's list design philosophy. But with the large influx of
new folks, I thought it might be good to reiterate so everyone is on the same
sheet.

When we are faced with multiple choices as to how a troop type might look -
meaning there is evidence of more than one weapon/armor/training/order/morale
combination that could be applied, we opt to give the player all the options we
have any evidence for.

Why? Well, if you fancy yourself an historian and you believe you have hit on
the only correct view - it is there for you. If you think the evidence that
almughavars had some shields is sketchy or non-existent, there is no requirement
to take them on your troops. If you think that thing that Late Roman
legionaires carried was just another JLS and not a D - no need to take them.

Let's take the oft-maligned Late Roman chariot as an example - something Scott
and I debated at length. Yes, we do have evidence of its existence - in some
ways more evidence than we have of a lot of biblical troop types...lol - but not
a lot on its employment. But, it's out there, people have them and the record
is murky. Given our interpretation of them and their cost and the army they are
in, we feel we have given the player the best options. I would not, for
example, permit it in a theme tourney I ran, as I do not believe the thing was
ever used in real combat.
Do I mind seeing it in an open tourney? You know - the kind where Assyrians
fight Ottoman Turks... Not in the least. I am not afraid of an LIR army that
contains one and, much more importantly, I would never, ever make some sort of
history-based argument that in any way made use of an open tourney game as an
example. None of our list writing or playtesting uses anything but historical
opponents. If you play in opens and are worried about their 'history' you are
on your own...lol We very early on made the decision that trying to get
'Romans' balanced with 'knights' was pointless from a great many standpoints.
We are looking for armies that perform in period the way we believe they
performed. You take Sea Peoples into an open, you are a hero, but we aren't
going to 'do things' to the Sea Peoples list to make them more resistant to 15th
century knights....

You guys are the players - you decide which of more than one historical
interpretations you believe from your own homework. Don't let us - or anyone
else - tell you what to think.

J

JonCleaves@... wrote:

> Let's take the oft-maligned Late Roman chariot as an example -
> something Scott and I debated at length. Yes, we do have evidence of
> its existence - in some ways more evidence than we have of a lot of
> biblical troop types...lol - but not a lot on its employment.

Is there ANY evidence about its employment? And what evidence for its
existence? I'm only aware of the _suggestion_ that it be used.

When Renaissance Warrior comes out, will we see da Vinci's wonder weapons?

> We are looking for armies that perform in period the way we believe
> they performed. You take Sea Peoples into an open, you are a hero,
> but we aren't going to 'do things' to the Sea Peoples list to make
> them more resistant to 15th century knights....

I agree. There's no reason to gerrymander a list to make it viable in
an open environment.

Bob

--
- Enaa mqatreg naa l-Ruumaayey.

[Larry Essick]

> > Let's take the oft-maligned Late Roman chariot as an example -
> > something Scott and I debated at length. Yes, we do have evidence of
> > its existence - in some ways more evidence than we have of a lot of
> > biblical troop types...lol - but not a lot on its employment.
>
> Is there ANY evidence about its employment? And what evidence for its
> existence? I'm only aware of the _suggestion_ that it be used.
>
> When Renaissance Warrior comes out, will we see da Vinci's wonder weapons?

:-) or lol, take your pick.

> > We are looking for armies that perform in period the way we believe
> > they performed. You take Sea Peoples into an open, you are a hero,
> > but we aren't going to 'do things' to the Sea Peoples list to make
> > them more resistant to 15th century knights....
>
> I agree. There's no reason to gerrymander a list to make it viable in
> an open environment.

Nor is anyone, at least not I, suggesting this. I'll restate the almugavar
case. Historically they stood up to Turks, Genoese, Byzantines and French
(Frankish) crusader states. Make them work against their historical enemy w/o
introducing equipment that they did not use.

I'll ask again, what contemporary evidence is there that they ever had shields?

Yes, Catalan Company warriors had shields, but not almugavars -- the Aragonese
portions of the company used shields as well as the marines. Lawrence Mott, who
is the latest modern authority, states this categorically.

Instead, how about list notes that tell players how to properly use the troops
-- ie, do what the Aroganese did with them, use them from towns, woods or other
ambush so that they can spring on the unsuspecting Genoese and Byzantines before
they can form skirmish and avoid the fight, make proper use of your own Cb, etc.

Artificially introducing equipment in order to create historical effects is a
poor approach to list design. One that I intend to exploit, but still a poor
approach.

Larry

[Todd Schneider]

>Instead, how about list notes that tell players how
>to properly use the troops -- ie, do what the
>Aroganese did with them, use them from towns, woods
>or other ambush so that they can spring on the
>unsuspecting Genoese and Byzantines before they can
>form skirmish and avoid the fight, make proper use of
>your own Cb, etc

A List note would be fine and well, but doesn't the
above assume you getting the terrain picks you need to
make them effective? And your opponent somehow
allowing you to use them the way you want them to?

"In Period" I think the above might work, but theres
no reason for a 6E Unit of Moogs to hide from a 6E
Unit of LIR Legionaries, is there?

Todd

[Ewan McNay]

Todd Schneider wrote:

>>Instead, how about list notes that tell players how
>>to properly use the troops -- ie, do what the
>>Aroganese did with them, use them from towns, woods
>>or other ambush so that they can spring on the
>>unsuspecting Genoese and Byzantines before they can
>>form skirmish and avoid the fight, make proper use of
>>your own Cb, etc
>
>
> A List note would be fine and well, but doesn't the
> above assume you getting the terrain picks you need to
> make them effective? And your opponent somehow
> allowing you to use them the way you want them to?
>
> "In Period" I think the above might work, but theres
> no reason for a 6E Unit of Moogs to hide from a 6E
> Unit of LIR Legionaries, is there?

I'm not sure what the 'in period' comment means. But, the answer to
your question is of course 'yes' - there is almost noone that the
Moogs should be avoiding more. I'm tempted to assume that you
actually know this and were somehow attempting humour, but in case
someone was going to take it seriously:

(1) if the Moogs lose the initiative and the legion can get to 80p
moving second, the darts from the legion will do 2cpf on even dice,
forcing a waver before any combat, and putting the Moogs at a fatigue
disadvantage already.

(2) even assuming everything favourable for the Moog unit - i.e. an
impetuous charge at halted legion - the Moogs take 1 cpf in support
shoooting, so come in with 14 figures at 5 (HTW) +1 (JLS) +1 (charge)
+2 (impetuous) -1 (shot) = 8 = 105, 4 cpf to legion. The legion
fights back with 18 at 5 (HTW) +1 (JLS) = 6 = 90 = a total of 108 in
combat, or 6 cpf doubled to 12 fatigues. The Moogs win and are now
following up on 13 fatigues.

Next bound the Moogs do 14 @ 3 (other foot) +1 (following up) -1
(tired) -1 (disordered) = 2 = 28, 1 cpf to legion. The legion does 18
@ 3 (other foot) -2 (disordered) = 1 = 24, 1 cpf to Moogs. The Moogs
win but force no waver on the legion while taking 2 fatigue and
becoming exhausted - hence shaken - themselves, and unable to follow
up again because shaken.

The whole raison d'etre of almughavars is to hit pike/lts guys, taking
advantage of the avoidance of the 'facing' minus for htw-armed troops.
As I say, you must in fact know this, no?

[Larry Essick]

> "In Period" I think the above might work, but theres
> no reason for a 6E Unit of Moogs to hide from a 6E
> Unit of LIR Legionaries, is there?

Yes, there is absolutely!

But, if Jon is correct (and I think that he is) that lists should not be
designed for these fantasy events, then the question really misses the entire
point.

Larry

[Bill Chriss]

> Most here understand FHE's list design philosophy. But with the large
> influx of new folks, I thought it might be good to reiterate so
> everyone is on the same sheet.
>
> When we are faced with multiple choices as to how a troop type might look
> - meaning there is evidence of more than one
> weapon/armor/training/order/morale combination that could be applied, we
> opt to give the player all the options we have any evidence for.
>
> Why? Well, if you fancy yourself an historian and you believe you have
> hit on the only correct view - it is there for you.

I, for one, am satisfied with this approach, and hence wait with eager
anticipation for my Greek hoplite army list and all its options that I
have documented with primary source material.


Greek

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 8/26/2004 23:24:37 Central Daylight Time,
mailtomikek@... writes:

Perhaps in the FanWar list for "Legendary Early Greek" or some such.





there is a Mythic Greek list in FanWar, with all the trimmin's...lol

J


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Doug]

>When Renaissance Warrior comes out, will we see da Vinci's wonder weapons?

Hmmm... are there any general criteria for the dividing line between
FanWar and Warrior?

[Doug]

>Nor is anyone, at least not I, suggesting this. I'll restate the
>almugavar case. Historically they stood up to Turks, Genoese,
>Byzantines and French (Frankish) crusader states. Make them work
>against their historical enemy w/o introducing equipment that they
>did not use.
>
>I'll ask again, what contemporary evidence is there that they ever
>had shields?

Do you think that the factors "come out wrong" in the Warrior game?

If they had their own lines on the combat table --"Moog Hand/Missile
Weapons" -- then what should the factors be against the various troop
types?

I'm actually a theoretical proponent of such customized lines for the
purpose of doing historical pairings. I just don't know enough about
the game to come up with the "perfect" numbers to use.

>Instead, how about list notes that tell players how to properly use
>the troops -- ie, do what the Aroganese did with them, use them from
>towns, woods or other ambush so that they can spring on the
>unsuspecting Genoese and Byzantines before they can form skirmish
>and avoid the fight, make proper use of your own Cb, etc.

Well, how do you expect four guys to do it in detail for 100+ lists?
While I agree it would be nice, this is really the province of
articles in gaming magazines. Why don't you write such an article?

>Artificially introducing equipment in order to create historical
>effects is a poor approach to list design. One that I intend to
>exploit, but still a poor approach.
>Larry

Yeah, it would be better if the list said "count as if shielded +1
point" but OTOH the word style of the lists is a thing unto itself
which people are used to, and being able to "scan" the lists rapidly
is useful.
--

Doug
The price of freedom is infernal vigilantes

"We will never disarm any American who seeks to protect his or her
family from fear and harm."
--President Ronald W. Reagan

"That the People have a right to keep and bear Arms; that a well
regulated Militia, composed of the Body of the People, trained to
arms, is the proper, natural, and safe Defence of a free state." --
Within Mason's declaration of "the essential and unalienable Rights
of the People," -- later adopted by the Virginia ratification
convention, 1788

This communication is for use by the intended recipient and contains
information that may be privileged, confidential or copyrighted under
applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby
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or an acceptance of a contract offer. This e-mail does not constitute
a consent to the use of sender's contact information for direct marketing
purposes or for transfers of data to third parties.

[Doug]

> > Why? Well, if you fancy yourself an historian and you believe you have
>> hit on the only correct view - it is there for you.
>
>I, for one, am satisfied with this approach, and hence wait with eager
>anticipation for my Greek hoplite army list and all its options that I
>have documented with primary source material.
>Greek

BTW, will there be an option to bring the Gorgons' Head in a leather
bag? After all, we don't know when it was lost, exactly...

effect something like "turn all elements within 120 paces who are
facing towards it (within 90 degrees) into Obstacles..."
--

Doug
The price of freedom is infernal vigilantes

"We will never disarm any American who seeks to protect his or her
family from fear and harm."
--President Ronald W. Reagan

"That the People have a right to keep and bear Arms; that a well
regulated Militia, composed of the Body of the People, trained to
arms, is the proper, natural, and safe Defence of a free state." --
Within Mason's declaration of "the essential and unalienable Rights
of the People," -- later adopted by the Virginia ratification
convention, 1788

This communication is for use by the intended recipient and contains
information that may be privileged, confidential or copyrighted under
applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby
formally notified that any use, copying or distribution of this e-mail,
in whole or in part, is strictly prohibited. Please notify the sender
by return e-mail and delete this e-mail from your system. Unless
explicitly and conspicuously designated as "E-Contract Intended",
this e-mail does not constitute a contract offer, a contract amendment,
or an acceptance of a contract offer. This e-mail does not constitute
a consent to the use of sender's contact information for direct marketing
purposes or for transfers of data to third parties.

> BTW, will there be an option to bring the Gorgons' Head in a
leather
> bag? After all, we don't know when it was lost, exactly...
>
> effect something like "turn all elements within 120 paces who are
> facing towards it (within 90 degrees) into Obstacles..."
> --
>
> Doug

Perhaps in the FanWar list for "Legendary Early Greek" or some such.

Mike

[Bill Chriss]

> > > Why? Well, if you fancy yourself an historian and you believe
> you have
> >> hit on the only correct view - it is there for you.
> >
> >I, for one, am satisfied with this approach, and hence wait with eager
> >anticipation for my Greek hoplite army list and all its options that I
> >have documented with primary source material.
> >Greek
>
> BTW, will there be an option to bring the Gorgons' Head in a leather
> bag? After all, we don't know when it was lost, exactly...
>
> effect something like "turn all elements within 120 paces who are
> facing towards it (within 90 degrees) into Obstacles..."
> --


Actually, that would be a feature:

1. Too early for any hoplite list;

2. Better suited to fantasy warrior...We Hellenes know the difference
between myth and legend :)

But hey, i like the way you think. For example, shouldn't Achilles'
element be invulnerable to casualties except when struck from the rear?



Greek


Greek

[Chris Bump]

And yet the FHE LIR list has no Cataphracts? Bit of an exaggeration to suggest
that all historical options are offered.

Even though much historical data suggests considerable spacing between
Legionairres in the Marian and Polybian eras, and Logistically the only way to
replace such troops in combat would be through such open ordered formations,
Scott proclaimed that the reason that Marians and most likely Polybians would
not be allowed the option of being open order was that it encouraged their use
as other than open terrain troops. Huh? This suggests blatant ignoring of
historical data to support a game mechanism desired by FHE. The game is what
it is, and I don't think that anyone will argue that FHE does extensive research
in support of their prodigy, but I also disagree with the notion that anywhere
near all historically supported options are offered to the gamer.
Chris
----- Original Message -----
From: JonCleaves@...
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2004 11:25 AM
Subject: [WarriorRules] List Design Philosophy


Most here understand FHE's list design philosophy. But with the large influx
of new folks, I thought it might be good to reiterate so everyone is on the same
sheet.

When we are faced with multiple choices as to how a troop type might look -
meaning there is evidence of more than one weapon/armor/training/order/morale
combination that could be applied, we opt to give the player all the options we
have any evidence for.

Why? Well, if you fancy yourself an historian and you believe you have hit on
the only correct view - it is there for you. If you think the evidence that
almughavars had some shields is sketchy or non-existent, there is no requirement
to take them on your troops. If you think that thing that Late Roman
legionaires carried was just another JLS and not a D - no need to take them.

Let's take the oft-maligned Late Roman chariot as an example - something Scott
and I debated at length. Yes, we do have evidence of its existence - in some
ways more evidence than we have of a lot of biblical troop types...lol - but not
a lot on its employment. But, it's out there, people have them and the record
is murky. Given our interpretation of them and their cost and the army they are
in, we feel we have given the player the best options. I would not, for
example, permit it in a theme tourney I ran, as I do not believe the thing was
ever used in real combat.
Do I mind seeing it in an open tourney? You know - the kind where Assyrians
fight Ottoman Turks... Not in the least. I am not afraid of an LIR army that
contains one and, much more importantly, I would never, ever make some sort of
history-based argument that in any way made use of an open tourney game as an
example. None of our list writing or playtesting uses anything but historical
opponents. If you play in opens and are worried about their 'history' you are
on your own...lol We very early on made the decision that trying to get
'Romans' balanced with 'knights' was pointless from a great many standpoints.
We are looking for armies that perform in period the way we believe they
performed. You take Sea Peoples into an open, you are a hero, but we aren't
going to 'do things' to the Sea Peoples list to make them more resistant to 15th
century knights....

You guys are the players - you decide which of more than one historical
interpretations you believe from your own homework. Don't let us - or anyone
else - tell you what to think.

J


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Chris Bump]

But the rationale for shields comes from FHE's position that they did not suffer
from dramatic shooting losses. A list rule that states that they count as
shielded for shooting purposes would account for this. That shield also counts
for HtH purposes. Thus the uber-hero status. Their morale, weapons and
shielded status allows them to act with virtual impunity on the battlefield,
something that history does not suggest of them.

Many lists have troops that do not receive shields, Sarmations high on my mind.
This is, from what I can garner, historically accurate. I have not found any
data suggesting that they suffered heavily to missle fire. Not saying that it
does not exist, mind you, I just have not yet found such data. If no such data
does exist then the question begs to be asked, why are they not allowed shields
as well? I'm not saying that they should be, historically they did not carry
them, yet neither did the moogs. Seems abit off kilter.
Chris
----- Original Message -----
From: Doug
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2004 10:59 PM
Subject: Re: Re: [WarriorRules] List Design Philosophy


>Nor is anyone, at least not I, suggesting this. I'll restate the
>almugavar case. Historically they stood up to Turks, Genoese,
>Byzantines and French (Frankish) crusader states. Make them work
>against their historical enemy w/o introducing equipment that they
>did not use.
>
>I'll ask again, what contemporary evidence is there that they ever
>had shields?

Do you think that the factors "come out wrong" in the Warrior game?

If they had their own lines on the combat table --"Moog Hand/Missile
Weapons" -- then what should the factors be against the various troop
types?

I'm actually a theoretical proponent of such customized lines for the
purpose of doing historical pairings. I just don't know enough about
the game to come up with the "perfect" numbers to use.

>Instead, how about list notes that tell players how to properly use
>the troops -- ie, do what the Aroganese did with them, use them from
>towns, woods or other ambush so that they can spring on the
>unsuspecting Genoese and Byzantines before they can form skirmish
>and avoid the fight, make proper use of your own Cb, etc.

Well, how do you expect four guys to do it in detail for 100+ lists?
While I agree it would be nice, this is really the province of
articles in gaming magazines. Why don't you write such an article?

>Artificially introducing equipment in order to create historical
>effects is a poor approach to list design. One that I intend to
>exploit, but still a poor approach.
>Larry

Yeah, it would be better if the list said "count as if shielded +1
point" but OTOH the word style of the lists is a thing unto itself
which people are used to, and being able to "scan" the lists rapidly
is useful.
--

Doug
The price of freedom is infernal vigilantes

"We will never disarm any American who seeks to protect his or her
family from fear and harm."
--President Ronald W. Reagan

"That the People have a right to keep and bear Arms; that a well
regulated Militia, composed of the Body of the People, trained to
arms, is the proper, natural, and safe Defence of a free state." --
Within Mason's declaration of "the essential and unalienable Rights
of the People," -- later adopted by the Virginia ratification
convention, 1788

This communication is for use by the intended recipient and contains
information that may be privileged, confidential or copyrighted under
applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby
formally notified that any use, copying or distribution of this e-mail,
in whole or in part, is strictly prohibited. Please notify the sender
by return e-mail and delete this e-mail from your system. Unless
explicitly and conspicuously designated as "E-Contract Intended",
this e-mail does not constitute a contract offer, a contract amendment,
or an acceptance of a contract offer. This e-mail does not constitute
a consent to the use of sender's contact information for direct marketing
purposes or for transfers of data to third parties.

Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT





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