Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[Kelly Wilkinson]

Maybe it would hit from any angle if Paris is the shooter. . .

hrisikos@... wrote:> Oh my goodness! Bill, I suggest that Achillies
is invincible to all
> but an up 3 average die roll from shooting/support shooting. What do
> you think about that?
>
>
> kelly
>


Much better. I should have thought that post through more. But only if
shot at short range from the rear (an overhead shot wouldn't hit his
heel).


Greek


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[John Murphy]

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, kelly wilkinson
<jwilkinson62@y...> wrote:
> It's all good. I may have a copy of the misplaced
> legion laying around if you like, I can bring it
> Monday to the shop? It's about a Caesarian legion that
> gets transported (magically) to an alternate world
> which is much like a Commenan Byzantine fantasy world.
> The Legionaires fight as mercs for the Empire of
> Videssos (Byzantium) against all enemies foreign and
> domestic (there are plenty of civil wars ala
> Byzantine!). And ofcourse you get magic in the mix
> too. Oh yeah, and the books are well written too.

The first series of 4 books (Videssos Cycle) began in 1987 and is
pretty much as Kelly states, and there is a bit of Italo-Normans and
various nomad tribes and stuff too.

Then he wrote another series of 3 books (Tale of Krispos) going back
in Videssan history to the equivalent of Basil the Great. This is in
many ways even better, although the first series was very good.

Then to top that off he wrote another series of 4 books (Time of
Troubles) where he went back in time again to the Videssos
equivalent of Heraclius and the Persians. The last one was published
in 1998 with nothing since so I think he is done as sadly his other
stuff, which I do not think is nearly as good (Byzantium being,
after all, his main interest), makes more sales.

All three periods are interesting in Byzantine history and in the
Videssos stories.

I accumulated all eleven books over time, plus the couple other
stories before it all like HT's Agent of Byzantium and L Sprague De
Camp's Lest Darkness Fall. All kind of in that same genre.

So I can warn you if you crack the first book you might be hooked.

[John Murphy]

According to G of T the Saxons invaded Italy in the 570's with the
Lombards. IV.42 - page 237 of the Penguin edition - it is in the
index under "Saxons". Also indicates they returned, through Gaul and
the Rhone valley, to their place of origin not in Italy at all (as
one might expect).

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, Al Ronnfeldt <number656@y...>
wrote:
> Question for History buffs: Once was vs. the "Italian
> Saxons". Did Gregory mean the Ostrogoths, or some
> other group, or were there Saxons in N. Italy?
> They're not Lombards, he talks about them elsewhere.

[Mark Mallard]

In a message dated 8/27/2004 9:14:21 PM GMT Daylight Time,
jwilkinson62@... writes:

Jon,

It seems that legionaires and for that matter, Argyraspids from the Seleucid
army, were able to deploy and move through broken terrain and effectively
fight in said terrain as the march on Beth Zacharia is described by Bar Kochva
in his book, The Seleucid Army. Why is it that we have to assume that highly
trained troops would be so inflexible as to not have a plan for operating in
rough terrain? Why not allow something like a formaiton change into the
necessary order when moving in and out of terrain for these typs of troops?

kelly



I too have this stated source, but i imagined they were not using their
pikes. They were merely used for this task as thay were the troops of the
highest
morale armour and greatest combat experience. If i remember correctly it was
more of a fight off the guerilla sort of action while passing through narrow
passes.

Kelly is right and others of course that close order troops could fight in
looser order. But on a "proper" battlefield they would be used in their usual
role.

Mark Mallard




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Kelly Wilkinson]

Thanks Mark. :)

I'm not sure, but I think the Argyraspids were armed in the "Roman Fashon." It
sure would be cool to have the "players option" to pay points for troops to
operate in a fashion where they could go to loose order when faced by difficult
going. If this were the case, then I daresay that Swiss could go back to being
close order with special movement and list rules. If nothing else, this would be
a neat X rule.

kelly

markmallard7@... wrote:

In a message dated 8/27/2004 9:14:21 PM GMT Daylight Time,
jwilkinson62@... writes:

Jon,

It seems that legionaires and for that matter, Argyraspids from the Seleucid
army, were able to deploy and move through broken terrain and effectively
fight in said terrain as the march on Beth Zacharia is described by Bar Kochva
in his book, The Seleucid Army. Why is it that we have to assume that highly
trained troops would be so inflexible as to not have a plan for operating in
rough terrain? Why not allow something like a formaiton change into the
necessary order when moving in and out of terrain for these typs of troops?

kelly



I too have this stated source, but i imagined they were not using their
pikes. They were merely used for this task as thay were the troops of the
highest
morale armour and greatest combat experience. If i remember correctly it was
more of a fight off the guerilla sort of action while passing through narrow
passes.

Kelly is right and others of course that close order troops could fight in
looser order. But on a "proper" battlefield they would be used in their usual
role.

Mark Mallard




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Mike Bard]

Based on my research for my 15mm Seleucid army, the Agryaspides were
originally armed as elite pike. After Antiochus III's defeat at Magnesia,
the Seleucids and Ptolemaics reformed there armies closer to a Roman model.
In roughly 167 Antiochus IV, who had been raised in Rome, reorganized the
Seleucid army around the Roman model. This included arming at least some of
the Agryaspides with Pila and sword. Unfortunately I don't have my bar
Khova (sp?) handy to check into numbers.

As to the difficult going, terrain, different troop classes (MI-LMI/HI-LHI),
a strong case (in my opinion) can be made that it was a special case in
special terrain. All ancient armies were adaptable. If they faced
something superior they (generally) adapted to it, by changing tactics, or
even by adopting the equipment/tactics. Such difficult terrain can exist in
Warrior, and campaign or special games (i.e. marching columns) could run
into the same need.

The problem with all miniature games, Warrior not being an exception, is
that a miniature is a monolithic unchangeable item. And, within Warrior and
DBM, the element in a monolithic non-subdividable item. This causes all
kinds of problems, particularly in adaption to special cases, and, for
elements, in resolving wierdo situations that invariably occur in games.
Virtually all of the rules for charages are devoting to dealing with the
fact that Warrior represents a flexible line of inidividual men with a big
monolithic block.

The only way to 'resolve' this close order in difficult terrain rule would
be to give an option for close order to 'dismount' (reform) into a different
order (the appropriate choice of LHI/LMI). The time and duration required
would be the same as required to dismount. Different figure representation
for irregulars, or modified bases for regulars, would have to be used.
Fortunately, or unfortunately, it would almost certainly have to be an X
rule. It would change the game as we currently know it, require the
rewriting of virtually every list in existance to cover special cases
(Agryaspides also changed weapons as I recall for that mountain assault) and
is likely undoable within the conditions of the Warrior rules (i.e. they
have printed the rules, and are not going to change them).

Warrior, to me, is not the best simulation of mass ancient combat currently
available. The 'other game about which we can't talk' is. However, I find
Warrior to be a far more interesting, intellectually challenging, and
enjoyable game. Even with its flaws.

We all have to remember that when everything is said and done, we are
playing with little toys. At times I find that this hobby takes itself WAY
too seriously, and the recent discussions about fairly minor things in
lists, long quotes of rules references, differences in table sizes, etc.,
certainly belong in this category.

If I ever build a Minoan/Mycenean army, it will absolutely have Amazons and
Centaurs in it!

Michael Bard
That Greek Hoplite Guy (who does own other armies)

[John Murphy]

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Bard" <mwbard@r...>
wrote:
> If I ever build a Minoan/Mycenean army, it will absolutely have
Amazons and
> Centaurs in it!

Then folks can debate about how centaurs should dismount! If the
Amazon is riding the centaur, do they get the Midianite machine-gun
camels effect?

Hey, Mike, how's my figures coming?