Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[Mark Stone]

I have several questions about the Later Carthaginians.

(1) I note that Carthaginians subgenerals can be Reg B LC JLS,Sh. It appears
that the only reg LC the Carthaginians can get is 2nd Punic War, in Italy, when
the Numidians can be upgraded to regular. Does this mean that a Reg B LC sub
placed with a unit of Reg Numidian LC can make use of the Numidian list rule?

(2) I also note that in the 2nd Punic War in Italy that the Numidian ally can be
downgraded to a sub (as Maharbal), but there is no provision to then upgrade him
to regular. Is this an oversight, or can he indeed only be Irr?

(3) It isn't clear to me whether or not the Celtiberians can have both JLS and
HTW. One interpretation would be that Celtiberians are a subset of Scutarii, in
which case anything applicable to Scutarii (such as adding JLS) is applicable to
Celtiberians. Another interpretation might be that Celtiberians are a distinct
type from Scutarii, and when you upgrade Scutarii to Celtiberians they are no
longer Scutarii, and hence no longer eligible to receive JLS in addition to
HTW. Which is it?

(4) Though I'm loath to open this can of worms, I just have to ask: is it really
the assessment of FHE that of all the generals in our period only Hannibal and
Alexander are special enough to deserve list rules, or is there some thought
that as previous other list books are reviewed some other generals might get
similar treatment (Julius Caesar, Richard the Lionheart, and Edward the Black
Prince all come to mind as candidates)?


-Mark Stone

[Kelly Wilkinson]

Mark,

Have you looked at the Tartessian sublist in the Spanish list? It allows
you to Make your Spanish Cinc into a Carthaginian CinC. Additionally, you can
get Carthaginian Subs and yes, Regular Spanish LC. The list gets better morale
Scutarii, Irg A Celts, Elephants, everything your heart desires. Check it out.
It's easy to miss unless your really looking.

kw

Mark Stone <mark@...> wrote:
I have several questions about the Later Carthaginians.

(1) I note that Carthaginians subgenerals can be Reg B LC JLS,Sh. It appears
that the only reg LC the Carthaginians can get is 2nd Punic War, in Italy, when
the Numidians can be upgraded to regular. Does this mean that a Reg B LC sub
placed with a unit of Reg Numidian LC can make use of the Numidian list rule?

(2) I also note that in the 2nd Punic War in Italy that the Numidian ally can be
downgraded to a sub (as Maharbal), but there is no provision to then upgrade him
to regular. Is this an oversight, or can he indeed only be Irr?

(3) It isn't clear to me whether or not the Celtiberians can have both JLS and
HTW. One interpretation would be that Celtiberians are a subset of Scutarii, in
which case anything applicable to Scutarii (such as adding JLS) is applicable to
Celtiberians. Another interpretation might be that Celtiberians are a distinct
type from Scutarii, and when you upgrade Scutarii to Celtiberians they are no
longer Scutarii, and hence no longer eligible to receive JLS in addition to
HTW. Which is it?

(4) Though I'm loath to open this can of worms, I just have to ask: is it really
the assessment of FHE that of all the generals in our period only Hannibal and
Alexander are special enough to deserve list rules, or is there some thought
that as previous other list books are reviewed some other generals might get
similar treatment (Julius Caesar, Richard the Lionheart, and Edward the Black
Prince all come to mind as candidates)?


-Mark Stone




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[joncleaves]

I'll let Scott do 1-3. as for 4, yes. We had long talks about this. There are
a lot of candidates just below the alex and hannibal level - i even agree with
the ones you mention.
I think that we should look into x-rules for some of those guys at some later
date (and will always take suggestions from players).

J

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Stone <mark@...>
To: warrior <WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 15:24:13 +0000
Subject: [WarriorRules] List Questions - Classical Warrior



I have several questions about the Later Carthaginians.

(1) I note that Carthaginians subgenerals can be Reg B LC JLS,Sh. It appears
that the only reg LC the Carthaginians can get is 2nd Punic War, in Italy, when
the Numidians can be upgraded to regular. Does this mean that a Reg B LC sub
placed with a unit of Reg Numidian LC can make use of the Numidian list rule?

(2) I also note that in the 2nd Punic War in Italy that the Numidian ally can be
downgraded to a sub (as Maharbal), but there is no provision to then upgrade him
to regular. Is this an oversight, or can he indeed only be Irr?

(3) It isn't clear to me whether or not the Celtiberians can have both JLS and
HTW. One interpretation would be that Celtiberians are a subset of Scutarii, in
which case anything applicable to Scutarii (such as adding JLS) is applicable to
Celtiberians. Another interpretation might be that Celtiberians are a distinct
type from Scutarii, and when you upgrade Scutarii to Celtiberians they are no
longer Scutarii, and hence no longer eligible to receive JLS in addition to
HTW. Which is it?

(4) Though I'm loath to open this can of worms, I just have to ask: is it really
the assessment of FHE that of all the generals in our period only Hannibal and
Alexander are special enough to deserve list rules, or is there some thought
that as previous other list books are reviewed some other generals might get
similar treatment (Julius Caesar, Richard the Lionheart, and Edward the Black
Prince all come to mind as candidates)?


-Mark Stone





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[scott holder]

> I'll let Scott do 1-3. as for 4, yes. We had long talks about
this. There are a lot of candidates just below the alex and
hannibal level - i even agree with the ones you mention. I think
that we should look into x-rules for some of those guys at some
later date (and will always take suggestions from players).

I'm working on 1-3.

Lots of energy was expended on anticipating Mark's question. In
fact, we used the phrase "can o' worms" quite a bit. And we
understood why the usual eyebrows would be raised by the usual
parties about "well if Alexander why not >insert favorite godlike
general of antiquity here<". It was our feeling that Alex and
Hannibal, in the context of their lists as well as their respective
historical eras, deserved some special treatment. I've looked at
significant generals in all the books and nobody, in my opinion,
rises to the level of reputation as Alex and Hannibal. Hence, we
made a very concious decision to do something with these two guys
and not others.

As Jon mentioned, X-rules for other generals, particularly in a
thematic context, are certainly worth developing.

scott

[scott holder]

>(1) I note that Carthaginians subgenerals can be Reg B LC JLS,Sh.
It appears that the only reg LC the Carthaginians can get is 2nd
Punic War, in Italy, when the Numidians can be upgraded to regular.
Does this mean that a Reg B LC sub placed with a unit of Reg
Numidian LC can make use of the Numidian list rule?

Yes. The list as it literally should be read allows for this.

> (2) I also note that in the 2nd Punic War in Italy that the
Numidian ally can be downgraded to a sub (as Maharbal), but there is
no provision to then upgrade him to regular. Is this an oversight,
or can he indeed only be Irr?

It isn't an oversight per se. During the 2nd Punic War, you could
simply just purchase a Reg B LC Carthaginian Sub and team him up
with the Reg Numidian LC should you desire. I'll grant you that
this doesn't cover the situation when you're forced to purchase the
Numidian AG (buy having 24+ elements of stated troop types) so I
should probably add to the existing "upgrade Numidian LC to Reg"
something about the general's element. I'll put it in the errata
pile.

> (3) It isn't clear to me whether or not the Celtiberians can have
both JLS and HTW. One interpretation would be that Celtiberians are
a subset of Scutarii, in which case anything applicable to Scutarii
(such as adding JLS) is applicable to Celtiberians. Another
interpretation might be that Celtiberians are a distinct type from
Scutarii, and when you upgrade Scutarii to Celtiberians they are no
longer Scutarii, and hence no longer eligible to receive JLS in
addition to HTW. Which is it?

They can be double-armed. They can in other lists where this pops
up so hopefully that'll fend off the near term questions. Another
item for the errata pile.

scott

[Kelly Wilkinson]

irobot00 <Scott.Holder@...> wrote:
It was our feeling that Alex and
Hannibal, in the context of their lists as well as their respective
historical eras, deserved some special treatment. I've looked at
significant generals in all the books and nobody, in my opinion,
rises to the level of reputation as Alex and Hannibal. Hence, we
made a very concious decision to do something with these two guys
and not others.

ummm. . . How about Ghengis Khan? It seems that Conquering 90% of Asia is no
mean feat. Or for that matter, anyone with the moniker "The Great." I suppose
that they got those for being better than "The Average." <Grin>

Has anyone given any thought about the fact that many of these "Great"
historical figures often faced complete incompetents when they went into battle?
"Let's march thru Lake Trebia in the early morning hours when it will be foggy
and while we're at it, who needs scouts or skirmishers?!" It almost seems that
armies could get a points benefit from taking "Bad" generals. I think, that
would truly be hilarious.

kelly wilkinson






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Greetings Kelly,
So how many points are you going to give me for taking Varus? ;-)

> Has anyone given any thought about the fact that many of these "Great"
historical figures often faced complete incompetents when they went into battle?
"Let's march thru Lake Trebia in the early morning hours when it will be foggy
and while we're at it, who needs scouts or skirmishers?!" It almost seems that
armies could get a points benefit from taking "Bad" generals. I think, that
would truly be hilarious.
>
> kelly wilkinson
>
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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[Kelly Wilkinson]

LOL! well, that may depend. . . Perhaps Varus causes troops within 160 paces
to "go up" 1 order (ie: from attack to rush!). Perhaps 25 points. whereas his
opposite may cause troops to go down one order. Or perhaps it one takes any of
the poor fools like the guy at lake trebia, one's scouting point total may be
halved or some such with a point benefit of say 30 or so. . . It would
certainly make for a juicey gaming experience.

kelly

Terry Dix <notalent@...> wrote:

Greetings Kelly,
So how many points are you going to give me for taking Varus? ;-)

> Has anyone given any thought about the fact that many of these "Great"
historical figures often faced complete incompetents when they went into battle?
"Let's march thru Lake Trebia in the early morning hours when it will be foggy
and while we're at it, who needs scouts or skirmishers?!" It almost seems that
armies could get a points benefit from taking "Bad" generals. I think, that
would truly be hilarious.
>
> kelly wilkinson
>
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
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> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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