Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[Greg Regets]

I decided to watch this a bit before contributing. Those that know me, know that
marketing and advertising campaigns, is my profession and on some level we may
apply advertising absolutes to this discussion. Some of my thoughts are not
pretty, but are presented in an effort to look the enemy in the eye, and know
him for what he is.

The best opportunity to market this game has already passed. That opportunity
was lost when the game was done as a remake of 7th Edition, rather than a
substantial upgrade of 7th. Face facts, the game looks the same, plays the same,
and is the same. Many could argue that point, but to the average person, thats
what is seen. Even myself, an avid supporter of WARRIOR, find myself very
frustrated by a lack of desire to fix things within the rules that were silly in
7th, and equally silly in WARRIOR. This is very much like a vehicle line that
puts out a new look with flashy new fenders and colors, then brands that vehicle
as the NEW AND IMPROVED "supertruck". It gets a boost for a while, but that
boost has no staying power as consumers find they are just buying the same
thing, in a new wrapper.

The point is, you can HOPE that Warrior will be seen as a new game, and you can
brand it that way, but this will only work for a short time and is the cyanide
pill that will get rid of your headache by killing you.

So, the best opportunity is lost, but fortunately, all is not lost.

1. Tournaments - So, WARRIOR is seen as a tournament set. So what? Is there
something wrong with tournaments? The answer is not to run from a tournament
label, but to make the tournaments something that people want to attend. In that
way, you use what is seen as your weakness, as your strength. That, my
co-gamers, is what advertising is all about! Encourage the tournament
environment, and watch it grow, and watch your sales grow with it. Make a
ranking system, and include any game anyone wants to send you. Something simple
like three points for a big tournament win, two for a smaller win and one for a
friendly might do the trick. After all, what is the goal here, to be ranked, or
to get more people to play the game? Shouldn't "Joe Competitive Gamer" be
encouraged to find more people to play, so he can win more games and increase
his ranking? Some may not like that thinking, but again, the goal is to sell
more games, right?

Do not worry about being seen as a tournament set ... just make sure you are
seen as THE tournament set!

2. Painted Armies and Terrain - The people that posted about having the best
painted armies and terrain are 100% correct in my opinion. Nothing drawn people
more than pagentry. Games Workshop is a perfect example of this thinking. Every
tournament should have a player winner, a best painted army winner and a best
terrain winner, and these other awards should be considered important. In our SW
Region, we always have a best painted army award and it is considered important.
Nothing makes the game look more serious, than beautiful armies and terrain.
Take pictures and post them on the website.

3. Complexity - This is another area that is given as a weakness that can be
turned into a strength. Much effort has been spent on Fast WARRIOR, and many
players enjoy it, but what does it accomplish from a sales point of view? A
simple way of getting into WARRIOR, also implies that WARRIOR is needlessly
complex. This may actually be true, but is still bad spin. The ONLY branding
that should be done for Fast WARRIOR is from the point of view of getting into
the game with less figures, and the ability to try out an army on a limited
scale.

WARRIOR should be branded as an alternative to alternate movement miniatures,
since that is where the greatest difference in rules lie. DBM has factor charts
and so does WARRIOR. Might of Arms has casualty calculation and so does WARRIOR.
What those games don't have is real time movement. This should be played up as a
HUGE game strength. We have recruited two DBM players in this area, and our big
recruiting tool was the ability to differentiate between watching someone do
unto you, and interacting in a combat to find the result. In this manner, all
rules complexity may be spun as needed to effect a MORE REALISTIC result.

Complexity is only an issue if there is no reason for it. If there is good
reason, lets assume that players will decide the complexity is worth the end
product.

4. POP Material - WARRIOR needs to have some. I know you are financially
limited, but having point of purchase items will get you into stores, and cause
activity once in the store. My wife's family runs a hobby shop here in San
Antonio, and I know this to be true. Posters, WARRIOR dice, WARRIOR rulers, etc
... are all good ideas. How about a fancy WARRIOR sign up sheet to be displayed
in hobby shops, where players can write a name and phone number for pick up
games. People will actually walk in stores and seeing they can find an opponent,
will then buy a game. This is a sales group that is not reachable in any other
way. POP is the most overlooked media for marketing niche items, and yet
statistics have shown them to be the most effective. The reason is, they give
top of mind awareness, in places where your niche buyer, buys.


I hope this helps, and forgive me if some of my tone is aggressive. Welcome to
the advertising world!

Greg


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Although not intended as such, this was a very helpful description of
what Warrior is and is not. A few more detailed answers like this and I
may have reached a decision to buy or not buy the rules.

Gracias,
Glenn/Dwarf_Warrior@...
This is my Fantasy and 6/10mm Alter Ego e-mail account
Historical Miniatures and bead jewelry: Warbeads@...
Science Fiction: Triphibious@...

On Wed, 14 Aug 2002 12:57:50 -0500 "Greggory A. Regets" <gar@...>
writes:
>I decided to watch this a bit before contributing. Those that know me,
>know that marketing and advertising campaigns, is my profession and on
>some level we may apply advertising absolutes to this discussion. Some
>of my thoughts are not pretty, but are presented in an effort to look
>the enemy in the eye, and know him for what he is.
>
>The best opportunity to market this game has already passed. That
>opportunity was lost when the game was done as a remake of 7th
>Edition, rather than a substantial upgrade of 7th. Face facts, the
>game looks the same, plays the same, and is the same. Many could argue
>that point, but to the average person, thats what is seen. Even
>myself, an avid supporter of WARRIOR, find myself very frustrated by a
>lack of desire to fix things within the rules that were silly in 7th,
>and equally silly in WARRIOR. This is very much like a vehicle line
>that puts out a new look with flashy new fenders and colors, then
>brands that vehicle as the NEW AND IMPROVED "supertruck". It gets a
>boost for a while, but that boost has no staying power as consumers
>find they are just buying the same thing, in a new wrapper.
>
>The point is, you can HOPE that Warrior will be seen as a new game,
>and you can brand it that way, but this will only work for a short
>time and is the cyanide pill that will get rid of your headache by
>killing you.
>
>So, the best opportunity is lost, but fortunately, all is not lost.
>
>1. Tournaments - So, WARRIOR is seen as a tournament set. So what? Is
>there something wrong with tournaments? The answer is not to run from
>a tournament label, but to make the tournaments something that people
>want to attend. In that way, you use what is seen as your weakness, as
>your strength. That, my co-gamers, is what advertising is all about!
>Encourage the tournament environment, and watch it grow, and watch
>your sales grow with it. Make a ranking system, and include any game
>anyone wants to send you. Something simple like three points for a big
>tournament win, two for a smaller win and one for a friendly might do
>the trick. After all, what is the goal here, to be ranked, or to get
>more people to play the game? Shouldn't "Joe Competitive Gamer" be
>encouraged to find more people to play, so he can win more games and
>increase his ranking? Some may not like that thinking, but again, the
>goal is to sell more games, right?
>
>Do not worry about being seen as a tournament set ... just make sure
>you are seen as THE tournament set!
>
>2. Painted Armies and Terrain - The people that posted about having
>the best painted armies and terrain are 100% correct in my opinion.
>Nothing drawn people more than pagentry. Games Workshop is a perfect
>example of this thinking. Every tournament should have a player
>winner, a best painted army winner and a best terrain winner, and
>these other awards should be considered important. In our SW Region,
>we always have a best painted army award and it is considered
>important. Nothing makes the game look more serious, than beautiful
>armies and terrain. Take pictures and post them on the website.
>
>3. Complexity - This is another area that is given as a weakness that
>can be turned into a strength. Much effort has been spent on Fast
>WARRIOR, and many players enjoy it, but what does it accomplish from a
>sales point of view? A simple way of getting into WARRIOR, also
>implies that WARRIOR is needlessly complex. This may actually be true,
>but is still bad spin. The ONLY branding that should be done for Fast
>WARRIOR is from the point of view of getting into the game with less
>figures, and the ability to try out an army on a limited scale.
>
>WARRIOR should be branded as an alternative to alternate movement
>miniatures, since that is where the greatest difference in rules lie.
>DBM has factor charts and so does WARRIOR. Might of Arms has casualty
>calculation and so does WARRIOR. What those games don't have is real
>time movement. This should be played up as a HUGE game strength. We
>have recruited two DBM players in this area, and our big recruiting
>tool was the ability to differentiate between watching someone do unto
>you, and interacting in a combat to find the result. In this manner,
>all rules complexity may be spun as needed to effect a MORE REALISTIC
>result.
>
>Complexity is only an issue if there is no reason for it. If there is
>good reason, lets assume that players will decide the complexity is
>worth the end product.
>
>4. POP Material - WARRIOR needs to have some. I know you are
>financially limited, but having point of purchase items will get you
>into stores, and cause activity once in the store. My wife's family
>runs a hobby shop here in San Antonio, and I know this to be true.
>Posters, WARRIOR dice, WARRIOR rulers, etc ... are all good ideas. How
>about a fancy WARRIOR sign up sheet to be displayed in hobby shops,
>where players can write a name and phone number for pick up games.
>People will actually walk in stores and seeing they can find an
>opponent, will then buy a game. This is a sales group that is not
>reachable in any other way. POP is the most overlooked media for
>marketing niche items, and yet statistics have shown them to be the
>most effective. The reason is, they give top of mind awareness, in
>places where your niche buyer, buys.
>
>
>I hope this helps, and forgive me if some of my tone is aggressive.
>Welcome to the advertising world!
>
>Greg
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>WarriorRules-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>


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On Thu, 15 Aug 2002 12:15:58 -0500 "Greggory A. Regets" <gar@...>
writes:
>Respectfully, my opinions about marketing and advertising are not a
>valid basis on which to judge this rules set. They are only opinions
>on the topic of marketing and advertising, towards the goal of
>postitioning the game to sell rules sets.
>

Understood but a lot of the post answered questions I had not asked yet,
so... Thanks.

>Again ... being the best rules set for a tournament (in my opinion)
>DOES NOT mean that they are a better suited for a tournament than
>historical gaming. To use another Ad Agency catch phrase;
>
>Pizza makes a great dinner, but not all great dinners are pizza!
>

Agreed and agreed. My kids won't eat most peoples' spaghetti sauce after
growing up on mine (amazing what 'from scratch' does fore a dish... or a
game.)

>As far as playing like 7th, I am now and always will be of the opinion
>that the majority of the people that hated the way 7th played, were
>not playing it correctly in the first place. I also differ with new
>players that are not willing to listen to the advice of more
>experienced players, then trash the game because they can't win.
>

I watched and the "7th Speak" was pretty arcane, the rules 'discussions'
were too anal (IMO) in most cases, and the two war gamers who played who
I respected the most quit playing the rules before I could learn them. I
have one of the WRG ancients set (I forget which version) and it makes
the agency's attempt to teach me Chinese seem easier then understanding
these rules.

I am a very non-tournament player (I prefer 'scenario-driven' but...) and
the rules for terrain placement and 47 levels of 'stuff' (weather,
commanders relationship with his wife and/or girl friend, direction of
the wind, color of the butterflies on the field) that seemed required
just to run a game are my memories of 7th.

Went to the basement - I have War Games Rules 3000 BC to 1485 AD "Fully
revised AUGUST 1992" and the introduction page (pg 3) refers to them as
"...7th EDITION AS REVISED..." so these is the rules we are talking about
as the predecessor basis that Warrior grew from.

Okay, somebody tell me. Give me 10 ways that Warrior differs from 7th,
please.


Based on what I read on the web site and so far on the list:

Seems to have kept the armor/weapons drive effectiveness approach,
definitely has kept the "secret Language" of Training and Morale class
(which I like,) Troop type (Which can be somewhat confusing to a newbie
in the sheer number of categories,) still has the same weapon categories
with "specialization" for lack a better term for Close combat situations
(P, LTS, IPW, etc.,) still has the element strength per stand it seems,
Still has a point system that tallies points for having more available
weapons class on a figure/stand ("...increase for each extra weapons
class used by mounted figure...",) and maybe more that I have missed or
misread on past threads (which I have not been able to read in depth due
to time constraints.)

>Again, this is just my opinion, based on players from my area.
>
>Thanks for your thoughts, and I would advise you to please buy the
>rules and give them a try. You will probably like them and I find them
>very well written.
>
>Greg
>

The only time I buy rules unplayed any more is in the clearance bins at a
local shop or with a detailed recommendation from a person I have played
with for years and who has a good understanding of what I am looking for
in a set of rules. I bought V&B on a very close friend's recommendation
and GOL based on another friend's detailed experience he relayed to me
about how the rules I was looking varied in play (BTW he did not like GOL
but he sold me on them by his analysis of them as rules.) Let me see it
in action and then I can make a decision. So far this policy has worked
well so zI will stick with it.

You should see how much I go through before I buy miniatures that I have
never bought before (in hand is great, decent pictures are good, fair
pictures are worthless and sight unseen is almost unheard of...)

Gracias,
Glenn/WarBeads@...
This is my historical War Games and Beaded Jewelry E-mail Alter Ego.
Science Fiction alter ego is Triphibious@...
Fantasy alter ego and 6mm lists found at Dwarf_warrior@...


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[joncleaves]

In a message dated Thu, 15 Aug 2002 11:44:04 AM Eastern Standard Time,
warbeads@... writes:

> Although not intended as such, this was a very helpful description of
> what Warrior is and is not. A few more detailed answers
> like this and I
> may have reached a decision to buy or not buy the rules.

That was an opinion of what Warrior is and is not from a player, not the guys
who make it. As an opinion, it is automatically valid, but that does not mean
we all agree with it.

If you have questions about what Warrior is and is not from its authors, please
feel free to ask.

Not trying to devalue anyone's opinion - all good. Just clarifying.

[Greg Regets]

Respectfully, my opinions about marketing and advertising are not a valid basis
on which to judge this rules set. They are only opinions on the topic of
marketing and advertising, towards the goal of postitioning the game to sell
rules sets.

Again ... being the best rules set for a tournament (in my opinion) DOES NOT
mean that they are a better suited for a tournament than historical gaming. To
use another Ad Agency catch phrase;

Pizza makes a great dinner, but not all great dinners are pizza!

As far as playing like 7th, I am now and always will be of the opinion that the
majority of the people that hated the way 7th played, were not playing it
correctly in the first place. I also differ with new players that are not
willing to listen to the advice of more experienced players, then trash the game
because they can't win.

Again, this is just my opinion, based on players from my area.

Thanks for your thoughts, and I would advise you to please buy the rules and
give them a try. You will probably like them and I find them very well written.
:-)

Greg

----- Original Message -----
From: JonCleaves@...
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 11:48 AM
Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] Marketing and Advertising


In a message dated Thu, 15 Aug 2002 11:44:04 AM Eastern Standard Time,
warbeads@... writes:

> Although not intended as such, this was a very helpful description of
> what Warrior is and is not. A few more detailed answers
> like this and I
> may have reached a decision to buy or not buy the rules.

That was an opinion of what Warrior is and is not from a player, not the guys
who make it. As an opinion, it is automatically valid, but that does not mean
we all agree with it.

If you have questions about what Warrior is and is not from its authors,
please feel free to ask.

Not trying to devalue anyone's opinion - all good. Just clarifying.

Yahoo! Groups Sponsor


To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
WarriorRules-unsubscribe@egroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 8/15/2002 15:16:46 Central Daylight Time,
warbeads@... writes:


> Okay, somebody tell me. Give me 10 ways that Warrior differs from 7th,
> please.
>

1. It is easier to read and find things. It has case numbers and
crossreferences.
2. The entire method of deployment and game set up is left to the players as
optional and removed from the core of the rules.
3. A differentiation is made between recall (withdrawing in the face of the
enemy from an untenable position) and rally (gathering the unit back into
formation after a combat or pursuit) - they are not codependent.
4. The way a unit moves into contact with an enemy unit is covered in more
detail and covers more situations than 7th ever did. This is also true for:
5. evading bodies and
6. routing bodies. and yes, I list 4, 5, 6 as separate things since i
completely rewrote those sections.
7. shooting arcs are exactly that - not random overlaps based on how many
elements in a unit
8. Warrior has a rule for all types of transport units. 7th essentially had
none
9. Warrior has a rule for all types of expendables. 7th had a confusing
paragraph.
10. Warrior includes a complete mini-game and 276 complete army lists for
that game. 7th had none of this.
11. Warrior has summary sections for terrain effects on movement, terrain
effects on combat and all the rules for elephants and chariots in one place.
7th had none of this.
12. Warrior has a section for how to read an army list and how to purchase a
unit. 7th did not.
13. Warrior has an intro that defines key terms and points out the most
important aspects of the game to learn.
14. Warrior has a crapload of intext diagrams. 7th had a couple unannotated
on the inside cover.
15. Warrior is a component of a fully integrated gaming system that will
eventually include: Fast Warrior, Campaign Warrior, Siege Warrior, Fleet
Warrior, Intro Warrior, Warrior Skirmish and Fantasy Warrior.
16. Warrior will have ONE set of fully compatible army lists, two of the
seven books available now.
17. Warrior has a game company that fully supports its players with play
aids, internet access, surveys, rules clarifications and me answering
questions like these at ten o'clock in the evening when I could be doing
something else, but I just love this shit too much. :)

Other than that, its exactly the same as 7th....

Jon


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

LOL! Three more and you would have got double crdit!

On Thu, 15 Aug 2002 23:20:29 EDT JonCleaves@... writes:
>In a message dated 8/15/2002 15:16:46 Central Daylight Time,
>warbeads@... writes:
>
>
>> Okay, somebody tell me. Give me 10 ways that Warrior differs from
>7th,
>> please.
>>
>
>1. It is easier to read and find things. It has case numbers and
>crossreferences.
>2. The entire method of deployment and game set up is left to the
>players as
>optional and removed from the core of the rules.
>3. A differentiation is made between recall (withdrawing in the face
>of the
>enemy from an untenable position) and rally (gathering the unit back
>into
>formation after a combat or pursuit) - they are not codependent.
>4. The way a unit moves into contact with an enemy unit is covered in
>more
>detail and covers more situations than 7th ever did. This is also
>true for:
>5. evading bodies and
>6. routing bodies. and yes, I list 4, 5, 6 as separate things since
>i
>completely rewrote those sections.
>7. shooting arcs are exactly that - not random overlaps based on how
>many
>elements in a unit
>8. Warrior has a rule for all types of transport units. 7th
>essentially had
>none
>9. Warrior has a rule for all types of expendables. 7th had a
>confusing
>paragraph.
>10. Warrior includes a complete mini-game and 276 complete army lists
>for
>that game. 7th had none of this.
>11. Warrior has summary sections for terrain effects on movement,
>terrain
>effects on combat and all the rules for elephants and chariots in one
>place.
>7th had none of this.
>12. Warrior has a section for how to read an army list and how to
>purchase a
>unit. 7th did not.
>13. Warrior has an intro that defines key terms and points out the
>most
>important aspects of the game to learn.
>14. Warrior has a crapload of intext diagrams. 7th had a couple
>unannotated
>on the inside cover.
>15. Warrior is a component of a fully integrated gaming system that
>will
>eventually include: Fast Warrior, Campaign Warrior, Siege Warrior,
>Fleet
>Warrior, Intro Warrior, Warrior Skirmish and Fantasy Warrior.
>16. Warrior will have ONE set of fully compatible army lists, two of
>the
>seven books available now.
>17. Warrior has a game company that fully supports its players with
>play
>aids, internet access, surveys, rules clarifications and me answering
>questions like these at ten o'clock in the evening when I could be
>doing
>something else, but I just love this shit too much.
>
>Other than that, its exactly the same as 7th....
>
>Jon
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>


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Jon, you're doing a marvellous job.

I would have thought that point 1 alone was worth double credit!
Yet alone point 10,
and point 11,
and 13, 14, 15, 16, 17
(just my personal preferences)


--- In WarriorRules@y..., Glenn M Wilson <warbeads@j...> wrote:
> LOL! Three more and you would have got double crdit!
>
> On Thu, 15 Aug 2002 23:20:29 EDT JonCleaves@a... writes:
> >In a message dated 8/15/2002 15:16:46 Central Daylight Time,
> >warbeads@j... writes:
> >
> >
> >> Okay, somebody tell me. Give me 10 ways that Warrior differs
from
> >7th,
> >> please.
> >>
> >
> >1. It is easier to read and find things. It has case numbers and
> >crossreferences.
> >2. The entire method of deployment and game set up is left to the
> >players as
> >optional and removed from the core of the rules.
> >3. A differentiation is made between recall (withdrawing in the
face
> >of the
> >enemy from an untenable position) and rally (gathering the unit
back
> >into
> >formation after a combat or pursuit) - they are not codependent.
> >4. The way a unit moves into contact with an enemy unit is
covered
in
> >more
> >detail and covers more situations than 7th ever did. This is also
> >true for:
> >5. evading bodies and
> >6. routing bodies. and yes, I list 4, 5, 6 as separate things
since
> >i
> >completely rewrote those sections.
> >7. shooting arcs are exactly that - not random overlaps based on
how
> >many
> >elements in a unit
> >8. Warrior has a rule for all types of transport units. 7th
> >essentially had
> >none
> >9. Warrior has a rule for all types of expendables. 7th had a
> >confusing
> >paragraph.
> >10. Warrior includes a complete mini-game and 276 complete army
lists
> >for
> >that game. 7th had none of this.
> >11. Warrior has summary sections for terrain effects on movement,
> >terrain
> >effects on combat and all the rules for elephants and chariots in
one
> >place.
> >7th had none of this.
> >12. Warrior has a section for how to read an army list and how to
> >purchase a
> >unit. 7th did not.
> >13. Warrior has an intro that defines key terms and points out
the
> >most
> >important aspects of the game to learn.
> >14. Warrior has a crapload of intext diagrams. 7th had a couple
> >unannotated
> >on the inside cover.
> >15. Warrior is a component of a fully integrated gaming system
that
> >will
> >eventually include: Fast Warrior, Campaign Warrior, Siege Warrior,
> >Fleet
> >Warrior, Intro Warrior, Warrior Skirmish and Fantasy Warrior.
> >16. Warrior will have ONE set of fully compatible army lists, two
of
> >the
> >seven books available now.
> >17. Warrior has a game company that fully supports its players
with
> >play
> >aids, internet access, surveys, rules clarifications and me
answering
> >questions like these at ten o'clock in the evening when I could be
> >doing
> >something else, but I just love this shit too much.
> >
> >Other than that, its exactly the same as 7th....
> >
> >Jon
> >
> >
> >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> >
> >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> >WarriorRules-unsubscribe@e...
> >
> >
> >
> >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> >http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________
> GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
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