Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[Chris Bump]

Jon,

I am not sure if this has already been addressed in the past or not.
It may be a logistical issue that is just too complicated to consider
or keep track of, but the location of armored troops within a
formation makes a difference so I will ask.

If a body of 8 elements that is 4 across by 2 deep and the front 4
elements are HI and the back 4 are MI is attacked in the rear the
formation counts as shieldless MI, for obvious reasons.

If that same body is 2 across by 4 deep with the front rank being HI,
does the owner have to proclaim where the other two elements of HI
are? Fair play would suggest that he must, does Warrior/ FHE have a
stance on this? If so would you mind pointing it out or citing the
appropriate paragraph number?

It leads to further questions, because if the owner proclaims the
first two ranks of the same 2x4 formation as HI and the back two as
MI and the unit becomes disordered in HTH, does the opponent get to
count the unit as MI or is it still HI because the second rank is
also HI?

Next, if the formation is in fact 2 front ranks of HI and two back
ranks of MI and it then expands to a 4 element frontage, shouldn't
two of those front elements now be MI or are the HI allowed to move
out of the second rank to create longer first rank with the MI
falling in behind? Seems an awkward maneuver, but again may just be
logistically too complicated to keep track of.

Chris

[joncleaves]

The troop type of an element is not a secret. the opponent must answer any
question about troop type at any time.

You only get to count worse ranks fighting for the one immediately behind.

In an expansion, the expanding elements must come from the rear rank.

jon

-----Original Message-----
From: cncbump <cncbump@...>
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 05:15:45 -0000
Subject: [WarriorRules] Mixed armor formations


Jon,

I am not sure if this has already been addressed in the past or not.
It may be a logistical issue that is just too complicated to consider
or keep track of, but the location of armored troops within a
formation makes a difference so I will ask.

If a body of 8 elements that is 4 across by 2 deep and the front 4
elements are HI and the back 4 are MI is attacked in the rear the
formation counts as shieldless MI, for obvious reasons.

If that same body is 2 across by 4 deep with the front rank being HI,
does the owner have to proclaim where the other two elements of HI
are? Fair play would suggest that he must, does Warrior/ FHE have a
stance on this? If so would you mind pointing it out or citing the
appropriate paragraph number?

It leads to further questions, because if the owner proclaims the
first two ranks of the same 2x4 formation as HI and the back two as
MI and the unit becomes disordered in HTH, does the opponent get to
count the unit as MI or is it still HI because the second rank is
also HI?

Next, if the formation is in fact 2 front ranks of HI and two back
ranks of MI and it then expands to a 4 element frontage, shouldn't
two of those front elements now be MI or are the HI allowed to move
out of the second rank to create longer first rank with the MI
falling in behind? Seems an awkward maneuver, but again may just be
logistically too complicated to keep track of.

Chris








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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Ed Forbes]

-- JonCleaves@... wrote:
You only get to count worse ranks fighting for the one immediately behind.
jon

--

The tactical implications have always went on past me on this. Always thought of
as worse, not as ranks, as one only sees the first rank as HI in mixed ranks.
Have to give some thought to this.

For example:
With the shieldless European pike, they can be run as 2 ranks HI and 2 ranks MI
and still count as HI frontally when disordered.

Ed

[Frank Gilson]

If your foot unit is 4 ranks deep, HI, HI, MI, MI, then only HI
would count as a target class for the enemy should you be disordered.

If that foot unit is only two ranks deep, HI, MI, then when
disordered would count as MI target class (note that, if shieldless,
then only the HI shieldless factor of +2, NOT the MI shieldless
factor applies.)

Frank

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "eforbes100@j..."
<eforbes100@j...> wrote:
>
> -- JonCleaves@a... wrote:
> You only get to count worse ranks fighting for the one immediately
behind.
> jon
>
> --
>
> The tactical implications have always went on past me on this.
Always thought of as worse, not as ranks, as one only sees the first
rank as HI in mixed ranks. Have to give some thought to this.
>
> For example:
> With the shieldless European pike, they can be run as 2 ranks HI
and 2 ranks MI and still count as HI frontally when disordered.
>
> Ed
>

Jon:

Is Frank's second comment correct? Specifically, his comment that enemy
fighting a shieldless unit with front rank HI and bank rank MI that is
disordered only gets the +2 for shieldless, not + 3 for fighting shieldless
MI. I always thought it was, but it was ruled against me me at Fall In.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Frank Gilson" <franktrevorgilson@...>
To: <WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2005 2:32 PM
Subject: [WarriorRules] Re: Mixed armor formations


> If your foot unit is 4 ranks deep, HI, HI, MI, MI, then only HI
> would count as a target class for the enemy should you be disordered.
>
> If that foot unit is only two ranks deep, HI, MI, then when
> disordered would count as MI target class (note that, if shieldless,
> then only the HI shieldless factor of +2, NOT the MI shieldless
> factor applies.)
>
> Frank
>
> --- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "eforbes100@j..."
> <eforbes100@j...> wrote:
>>
>> -- JonCleaves@a... wrote:
>> You only get to count worse ranks fighting for the one immediately
> behind.
>> jon
>>
>> --
>>
>> The tactical implications have always went on past me on this.
> Always thought of as worse, not as ranks, as one only sees the first
> rank as HI in mixed ranks. Have to give some thought to this.
>>
>> For example:
>> With the shieldless European pike, they can be run as 2 ranks HI
> and 2 ranks MI and still count as HI frontally when disordered.
>>
>> Ed
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[Chris Bump]

Very good sir. Is there a line, so to speak, that delineates what is
possible?

1. May a formation of 8 elements that is 4 accross by 2 deep and HI
in the front and MI in the back contract to 2 across by 4 deep and in
so doing have the HI make up the first two ranks and the MI the back
two?

2. Or is contraction the opposite of expansion and the contracting
elements must fall in to the rear?

3. If the latter is the case may the owning player declare that in
the process of contraction, the HI now form the first- obviously- and
the 4th rank and the MI the two interior ranks?

4. If this is possible then may the owning player when he re-expands
have the HI who made up the 4th rank have those troops reoccupy the
front rank of the new 4 across by 2 deep formation?

How much flexibility is allowed with the intermingling of ranks when
contracting and expanding? Are the ranks rigid or do you assign them
with some intrinsic flexibility that does not require an additional
maneuver?

Thanks,
Chris

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, JonCleaves@a... wrote:
>
> The troop type of an element is not a secret. the opponent must
answer any question about troop type at any time.
>
> You only get to count worse ranks fighting for the one immediately
behind.
>
> In an expansion, the expanding elements must come from the rear
rank.
>
> jon
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cncbump <cncbump@v...>
> To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 05:15:45 -0000
> Subject: [WarriorRules] Mixed armor formations
>
>
> Jon,
>
> I am not sure if this has already been addressed in the past or
not.
> It may be a logistical issue that is just too complicated to
consider
> or keep track of, but the location of armored troops within a
> formation makes a difference so I will ask.
>
> If a body of 8 elements that is 4 across by 2 deep and the front 4
> elements are HI and the back 4 are MI is attacked in the rear the
> formation counts as shieldless MI, for obvious reasons.
>
> If that same body is 2 across by 4 deep with the front rank being
HI,
> does the owner have to proclaim where the other two elements of HI
> are? Fair play would suggest that he must, does Warrior/ FHE have
a
> stance on this? If so would you mind pointing it out or citing the
> appropriate paragraph number?
>
> It leads to further questions, because if the owner proclaims the
> first two ranks of the same 2x4 formation as HI and the back two as
> MI and the unit becomes disordered in HTH, does the opponent get to
> count the unit as MI or is it still HI because the second rank is
> also HI?
>
> Next, if the formation is in fact 2 front ranks of HI and two back
> ranks of MI and it then expands to a 4 element frontage, shouldn't
> two of those front elements now be MI or are the HI allowed to move
> out of the second rank to create longer first rank with the MI
> falling in behind? Seems an awkward maneuver, but again may just
be
> logistically too complicated to keep track of.
>
> Chris
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

[joncleaves]

This from the clarifications:

9.41 (Pg 69) Add after second sentence: "If fighting a mixed body that is
counting shieldless, use the shieldless factor of the element in contact."

J


-----Original Message-----
From: David Markowitz <markowitzd@...>
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 20:17:44 -0500
Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] Re: Mixed armor formations


Jon:

Is Frank's second comment correct? Specifically, his comment that enemy
fighting a shieldless unit with front rank HI and bank rank MI that is
disordered only gets the +2 for shieldless, not + 3 for fighting shieldless
MI. I always thought it was, but it was ruled against me me at Fall In.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Frank Gilson" <franktrevorgilson@...>
To: <WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2005 2:32 PM
Subject: [WarriorRules] Re: Mixed armor formations


> If your foot unit is 4 ranks deep, HI, HI, MI, MI, then only HI
> would count as a target class for the enemy should you be disordered.
>
> If that foot unit is only two ranks deep, HI, MI, then when
> disordered would count as MI target class (note that, if shieldless,
> then only the HI shieldless factor of +2, NOT the MI shieldless
> factor applies.)
>
> Frank
>
> --- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "eforbes100@j..."
> <eforbes100@j...> wrote:
>>
>> -- JonCleaves@a... wrote:
>> You only get to count worse ranks fighting for the one immediately
> behind.
>> jon
>>
>> --
>>
>> The tactical implications have always went on past me on this.
> Always thought of as worse, not as ranks, as one only sees the first
> rank as HI in mixed ranks. Have to give some thought to this.
>>
>> For example:
>> With the shieldless European pike, they can be run as 2 ranks HI
> and 2 ranks MI and still count as HI frontally when disordered.
>>
>> Ed
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>






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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[joncleaves]

Yes, the rule is:

"6.123 Changes in Frontage. In an expansion, a body takes up to two elements
from the rear rank(s) and places them in the front rank. The body is then formed
into a block. In a contraction, the body is formed into a block that is up to
two elements less wide than it started. Front rank elements that are not part of
the expansion or contraction do not move in any way. As long as theserules are
followed, other elements may be organized as the player sees fit."

Jon

-----Original Message-----
From: cncbump <cncbump@...>
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 14:56:59 -0000
Subject: [WarriorRules] Re: Mixed armor formations


Very good sir. Is there a line, so to speak, that delineates what is
possible?

1. May a formation of 8 elements that is 4 accross by 2 deep and HI
in the front and MI in the back contract to 2 across by 4 deep and in
so doing have the HI make up the first two ranks and the MI the back
two?

2. Or is contraction the opposite of expansion and the contracting
elements must fall in to the rear?

3. If the latter is the case may the owning player declare that in
the process of contraction, the HI now form the first- obviously- and
the 4th rank and the MI the two interior ranks?

4. If this is possible then may the owning player when he re-expands
have the HI who made up the 4th rank have those troops reoccupy the
front rank of the new 4 across by 2 deep formation?

How much flexibility is allowed with the intermingling of ranks when
contracting and expanding? Are the ranks rigid or do you assign them
with some intrinsic flexibility that does not require an additional
maneuver?

Thanks,
Chris

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, JonCleaves@a... wrote:
>
> The troop type of an element is not a secret. the opponent must
answer any question about troop type at any time.
>
> You only get to count worse ranks fighting for the one immediately
behind.
>
> In an expansion, the expanding elements must come from the rear
rank.
>
> jon
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cncbump <cncbump@v...>
> To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 05:15:45 -0000
> Subject: [WarriorRules] Mixed armor formations
>
>
> Jon,
>
> I am not sure if this has already been addressed in the past or
not.
> It may be a logistical issue that is just too complicated to
consider
> or keep track of, but the location of armored troops within a
> formation makes a difference so I will ask.
>
> If a body of 8 elements that is 4 across by 2 deep and the front 4
> elements are HI and the back 4 are MI is attacked in the rear the
> formation counts as shieldless MI, for obvious reasons.
>
> If that same body is 2 across by 4 deep with the front rank being
HI,
> does the owner have to proclaim where the other two elements of HI
> are? Fair play would suggest that he must, does Warrior/ FHE have
a
> stance on this? If so would you mind pointing it out or citing the
> appropriate paragraph number?
>
> It leads to further questions, because if the owner proclaims the
> first two ranks of the same 2x4 formation as HI and the back two as
> MI and the unit becomes disordered in HTH, does the opponent get to
> count the unit as MI or is it still HI because the second rank is
> also HI?
>
> Next, if the formation is in fact 2 front ranks of HI and two back
> ranks of MI and it then expands to a 4 element frontage, shouldn't
> two of those front elements now be MI or are the HI allowed to move
> out of the second rank to create longer first rank with the MI
> falling in behind? Seems an awkward maneuver, but again may just
be
> logistically too complicated to keep track of.
>
> Chris
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>








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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]