Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[Mark Stone]

--- On August 1 Mike Turner said: ---

>
> Well Mark, now that we have all told you how to get your fig's, 2000
> points of Mongols?? Plan on also painting dismounts for your cavalry
> I imagine? This will solve the long discussion on Terrain, you can
> simply pick up the piece of offending enemy terrain and discard it!
>

Well, the tournament gamer in me wouldn't pick Mongols as a first choice,
especially on 2000 points. Timurids would be a better choice. But Alex doesn't
care about tournament optimization; he cares about historical interest. He did
a big report for school this past year on the Mongols, and has developed great
admiration for Genghis Khan as a leader, and Subotai as a general. So Mongols
it is.

Now, don't get me wrong; Mongols is a fine list. At 1200 points it may be the
best list out there, particularly when the norm is to allow only one version of
a list. The dismount rule gives the Mongols effectively two versions of the list
out of a single version, which makes a huge difference.

At 1600 points I think it's still a strong list, and can work well in either
15mm or 25mm. But at 2000 points, I think it's just too cumbersome to work in
25mm. Hence the switch to 15mm....

And since I already have a Post Mongol Russian army in 15mm, I have most of the
figures I need.

Yes, I'll be painting up dismounts for a bunch of cav, as the dismount rule is
one of the big reasons to play the list. And yes, terrain will certainly be
easy to pack (4 loops of string). And on 2000 points I think there are some
other gimmicks one can afford that make the list more interesting....


-Mark Stone

[Kelly Wilkinson]

Mark Stone Wrote:

At 1600 points I think it's still a strong list, and can work well in either
15mm or 25mm. But at 2000 points, I think it's just too cumbersome to work in
25mm. Hence the switch to 15mm....


Kelly writes:

Mark, why do you think Mongols are better in 15mm? Jon and many others believe
that the 25mm game is the same as that of the 15mm game. What is your reasoning
in this?









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[Mark Stone]

Kelly writes:

> Mark, why do you think Mongols are better in 15mm? Jon and many others believe
> that the 25mm game is the same as that of the 15mm game. What is your
reasoning
> in this?

Well, I'm of the school of thought that the 15mm game and the 25mm game are
essentially the same. Essentially, but not exactly. When you push some extreme
cases, differences start to matter.

There are three main differences between the two scales:
- the 25mm table is 40 elements wide, while 15mm is 45;
- the 25mm table is 37 segments of 40p in depth, while 15mm is 48;
- terrain is proportionately somewhat larger in 25mm.

I find that in practice the difference in depth really doesn't matter. I play a
lot of cav armies, and I play against a lot of guys who play close order foot
armies. I know some close order foot players who have the notion that they will
eventually push evading cav off the table through continued, relentless advance.
In fact, I've _never_ seen this happen, and never had it done to me. In 25mm, it
takes 8 bounds for a force-marched close order foot unit to advance to the point
where an evading foe _must_ be driven off table. Generally, I can get something
else decisive to happen in 8 bounds.

The frontage matters. 5 elements is 5 elements; it is that much more space that
has to be covered. Note, however, that few armies cover even 40 elements'
frontage, and armies that cover less are already looking for some way to cut
down the table width using terrain. Cutting it down by an extra 5 elements
really isn't that hard.

The problem with the Mongols, and it is specific to 2000 points and 25mm, is
that you have a lot of light troops, who are not very dense, and thus you cover
a _lot_ of frontage. My current 2000 point incarnation has 6 reserve units, and
then a front line of 15 units occupying 31 elements' frontage. If I have one of
those 15 units right up against one flank, and another right up against the
other flank, and put only 1 element of space between units, that's 31+14=45
elements; exactly the width of a 15mm table. Now, actual deployment is more
complex: some units will be adjacent to each other with no gap between, and
some will want a larger gap. But I get the strong sense that Alex and I are
going to need all 45 elements to properly space out the army, as well as a bit
of luck with terrain picks (which, fortunately, the Mongols have the list rules
to facilitate). Going down to 40 elements would really cramp things up to the
point where I suspect we'd end up with unmanagable traffic control problems.

So overall there isn't a huge difference between 15mm and 25mm, but in some
"edge" cases, like Mongols, scale does matter. So Alex and I will stick to 15mm
for next year's Cold Wars.

We'll probably reprise the Shang in 25mm in 2007, though with a somewhat
different approach to the list.


-Mark Stone

[Mike Turner]

Kelly,
I know for a fact Jon does not appreciate you misquoting him.

Jon has said the game at 15mm and 25mm is the same because it is.
The same numbers are used to compute missile fire, combat, etc. The
same rules hold for counters, retirements, wavers, etc.

The only difference is the size of the playing field to the army.

Your misquoting him (was there really a need to use his name other
than to poke him? or start something?)is one of the reasons he blocks
your e-mails,

Mike

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, kelly wilkinson
<jwilkinson62@y...> wrote:
>
> Mark Stone Wrote:
>
> At 1600 points I think it's still a strong list, and can work well
in either
> 15mm or 25mm. But at 2000 points, I think it's just too cumbersome
to work in
> 25mm. Hence the switch to 15mm....
>
>
> Kelly writes:
>
> Mark, why do you think Mongols are better in 15mm? Jon and many
others believe that the 25mm game is the same as that of the 15mm
game. What is your reasoning in this?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> SPONSORED LINKS
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> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mike

I normally just lurk on this list but I must say something this time
I do not see anything wrong with what or how Kelly stated his
understanding of Jon's position. It would appear to me that you are
the antagonist in this case!

1) Kelly is not misquoting Jon because I heard Jon tell a
player at Historicon 2005 that he (Jon) felt they were the same game.
2) You are claiming you know Kelly's motives.
3) There is no need to tell the list that Jon blocks his or
anyone elses' emails. That is Jon's business and not the list.

That's all I have to say about that because this list is not the
forum to discuss this topic but I could not hold my piece any longer.



--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "turner1118" <Turnerm@l...>
wrote:
> Kelly,
> I know for a fact Jon does not appreciate you misquoting him.
>
> Jon has said the game at 15mm and 25mm is the same because it is.
> The same numbers are used to compute missile fire, combat, etc.
The
> same rules hold for counters, retirements, wavers, etc.
>
> The only difference is the size of the playing field to the army.
>
> Your misquoting him (was there really a need to use his name other
> than to poke him? or start something?)is one of the reasons he
blocks
> your e-mails,
>
> Mike
>
> --- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, kelly wilkinson
> <jwilkinson62@y...> wrote:
> >
> > Mark Stone Wrote:
> >
> > At 1600 points I think it's still a strong list, and can work
well
> in either
> > 15mm or 25mm. But at 2000 points, I think it's just too
cumbersome
> to work in
> > 25mm. Hence the switch to 15mm....
> >
> >
> > Kelly writes:
> >
> > Mark, why do you think Mongols are better in 15mm? Jon and many
> others believe that the 25mm game is the same as that of the 15mm
> game. What is your reasoning in this?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > SPONSORED LINKS
> > Miniature wargaming Wargaming Four horsemen Warrior
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> >
> >
> > Visit your group "WarriorRules" on the web.
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > WarriorRules-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service.
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Todd Kaeser]

Mark,

Old Glory 15's also have Mongols - I bought some of the dismounted figures and
they look good. Cheaper and a little bigger than essex - I looked at the cav
and it also was nice.

Todd K

Mark Stone <mark@...> wrote:
--- On August 1 Mike Turner said: ---

>
> Well Mark, now that we have all told you how to get your fig's, 2000
> points of Mongols?? Plan on also painting dismounts for your cavalry
> I imagine? This will solve the long discussion on Terrain, you can
> simply pick up the piece of offending enemy terrain and discard it!
>

Well, the tournament gamer in me wouldn't pick Mongols as a first choice,
especially on 2000 points. Timurids would be a better choice. But Alex doesn't
care about tournament optimization; he cares about historical interest. He did
a big report for school this past year on the Mongols, and has developed great
admiration for Genghis Khan as a leader, and Subotai as a general. So Mongols
it is.

Now, don't get me wrong; Mongols is a fine list. At 1200 points it may be the
best list out there, particularly when the norm is to allow only one version of
a list. The dismount rule gives the Mongols effectively two versions of the list
out of a single version, which makes a huge difference.

At 1600 points I think it's still a strong list, and can work well in either
15mm or 25mm. But at 2000 points, I think it's just too cumbersome to work in
25mm. Hence the switch to 15mm....

And since I already have a Post Mongol Russian army in 15mm, I have most of the
figures I need.

Yes, I'll be painting up dismounts for a bunch of cav, as the dismount rule is
one of the big reasons to play the list. And yes, terrain will certainly be
easy to pack (4 loops of string). And on 2000 points I think there are some
other gimmicks one can afford that make the list more interesting....


-Mark Stone


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[joncleaves]

Actually Mike is right. Kelly did indeed act counter to my wishes as I have
asked him 1000 times not to use my name in any way whatsoever. He did indeed
misquote me as well.

If Kelly can continue to do what he does here, I can hardly fault Mike T for
calling him out on it. Kelly did not technically break any rules of the forum
and neither did Mike - who can hardly be called the antagonist here. Noting
that I block his mail is hardly any sort of offense and not at all in a category
with deliberately ignoring my request not to have anything to do with me or, as
an example, berating someone because they did not think of Wargames when Essex
figs were mentioned.

I do indeed block Kelly's mail because I have given up expecting him to observe
other's wishes. Mike T does indeed know Kelly's motives because he has to deal
with him being in our playing area as do I.

I would rather just not have anything like this at all here - so, letting this
all die would be the best course of action.

Jon

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael <stuntz@...>
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 19:28:16 -0000
Subject: [WarriorRules] Re: Mongols (was: Essex in North America)


Mike

I normally just lurk on this list but I must say something this time
I do not see anything wrong with what or how Kelly stated his
understanding of Jon's position. It would appear to me that you are
the antagonist in this case!

1) Kelly is not misquoting Jon because I heard Jon tell a
player at Historicon 2005 that he (Jon) felt they were the same game.
2) You are claiming you know Kelly's motives.
3) There is no need to tell the list that Jon blocks his or
anyone elses' emails. That is Jon's business and not the list.

That's all I have to say about that because this list is not the
forum to discuss this topic but I could not hold my piece any longer.



--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "turner1118" <Turnerm@l...>
wrote:
> Kelly,
> I know for a fact Jon does not appreciate you misquoting him.
>
> Jon has said the game at 15mm and 25mm is the same because it is.
> The same numbers are used to compute missile fire, combat, etc.
The
> same rules hold for counters, retirements, wavers, etc.
>
> The only difference is the size of the playing field to the army.
>
> Your misquoting him (was there really a need to use his name other
> than to poke him? or start something?)is one of the reasons he
blocks
> your e-mails,
>
> Mike
>
> --- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, kelly wilkinson
> <jwilkinson62@y...> wrote:
> >
> > Mark Stone Wrote:
> >
> > At 1600 points I think it's still a strong list, and can work
well
> in either
> > 15mm or 25mm. But at 2000 points, I think it's just too
cumbersome
> to work in
> > 25mm. Hence the switch to 15mm....
> >
> >
> > Kelly writes:
> >
> > Mark, why do you think Mongols are better in 15mm? Jon and many
> others believe that the 25mm game is the same as that of the 15mm
> game. What is your reasoning in this?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > SPONSORED LINKS
> > Miniature wargaming Wargaming Four horsemen Warrior
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> >
> >
> > Visit your group "WarriorRules" on the web.
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > WarriorRules-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service.
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





Yahoo! Groups Links






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Kelly Wilkinson]

Todd,

Do you have a website with pictures?

kelly

Todd Kaeser <hailkaeser@...> wrote:
Mark,

Old Glory 15's also have Mongols - I bought some of the dismounted figures and
they look good. Cheaper and a little bigger than essex - I looked at the cav
and it also was nice.

Todd K

Mark Stone <mark@...> wrote:
--- On August 1 Mike Turner said: ---

>
> Well Mark, now that we have all told you how to get your fig's, 2000
> points of Mongols?? Plan on also painting dismounts for your cavalry
> I imagine? This will solve the long discussion on Terrain, you can
> simply pick up the piece of offending enemy terrain and discard it!
>

Well, the tournament gamer in me wouldn't pick Mongols as a first choice,
especially on 2000 points. Timurids would be a better choice. But Alex doesn't
care about tournament optimization; he cares about historical interest. He did
a big report for school this past year on the Mongols, and has developed great
admiration for Genghis Khan as a leader, and Subotai as a general. So Mongols
it is.

Now, don't get me wrong; Mongols is a fine list. At 1200 points it may be the
best list out there, particularly when the norm is to allow only one version of
a list. The dismount rule gives the Mongols effectively two versions of the list
out of a single version, which makes a huge difference.

At 1600 points I think it's still a strong list, and can work well in either
15mm or 25mm. But at 2000 points, I think it's just too cumbersome to work in
25mm. Hence the switch to 15mm....

And since I already have a Post Mongol Russian army in 15mm, I have most of the
figures I need.

Yes, I'll be painting up dismounts for a bunch of cav, as the dismount rule is
one of the big reasons to play the list. And yes, terrain will certainly be
easy to pack (4 loops of string). And on 2000 points I think there are some
other gimmicks one can afford that make the list more interesting....


-Mark Stone


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[Kelly Wilkinson]

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "turner1118" <Turnerm@l...>
wrote:
> Kelly,
> I know for a fact Jon does not appreciate you misquoting him.
>
> Jon has said the game at 15mm and 25mm is the same because it is.

***Kelly***
Mike just said the same thing I said in his mail rebuking me! But
I'm blamed for misquoting someone. How can I be misquoting anyone
here when the antagonist states that this is a fact? This whole
thing is insane. I was referring to Marks 2,000 point Mongol army
when I asked for his opinion. That was the gist of the post. It's
old news how some feel about the 25mm game verses the 15mm game. I
like both the way they are. I never took any position. Never
misquoted anyone. For those that didn't read the above comment. look
read, then read what I read. I just wanted to know what Mark's
reasoning was. That was ALL. Unless your a bunch of mind readers,
which by the way, your not, because if you were, you would never
have started this silliness, take it for what it is. . . A question
about Mark's reason for playing 2,000 points of Mongols in 15mm over
25mm. That's all it was. No reason to get mad or ruffled.

kelly wilkinson






> The same numbers are used to compute missile fire, combat, etc.
The
> same rules hold for counters, retirements, wavers, etc.
>
> The only difference is the size of the playing field to the army.
>
> Your misquoting him (was there really a need to use his name other
> than to poke him? or start something?)is one of the reasons he
blocks
> your e-mails,
>
> Mike
>
> --- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, kelly wilkinson
> <jwilkinson62@y...> wrote:
> >
> > Mark Stone Wrote:
> >
> > At 1600 points I think it's still a strong list, and can work
well
> in either
> > 15mm or 25mm. But at 2000 points, I think it's just too
cumbersome
> to work in
> > 25mm. Hence the switch to 15mm....
> >
> >
> > Kelly writes:
> >
> > Mark, why do you think Mongols are better in 15mm? Jon and many
> others believe that the 25mm game is the same as that of the 15mm
> game. What is your reasoning in this?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > SPONSORED LINKS
> > Miniature wargaming Wargaming Four horsemen Warrior
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> >
> >
> > Visit your group "WarriorRules" on the web.
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > WarriorRules-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service.
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Todd Kaeser]

Unfortunately I do not, but here is the old glory 15's site

http://www.oldglory15s.com/

Todd K

kelly wilkinson <jwilkinson62@...> wrote:
Todd,

Do you have a website with pictures?

kelly

Todd Kaeser <hailkaeser@...> wrote:
Mark,

Old Glory 15's also have Mongols - I bought some of the dismounted figures and
they look good. Cheaper and a little bigger than essex - I looked at the cav
and it also was nice.

Todd K

Mark Stone <mark@...> wrote:
--- On August 1 Mike Turner said: ---

>
> Well Mark, now that we have all told you how to get your fig's, 2000
> points of Mongols?? Plan on also painting dismounts for your cavalry
> I imagine? This will solve the long discussion on Terrain, you can
> simply pick up the piece of offending enemy terrain and discard it!
>

Well, the tournament gamer in me wouldn't pick Mongols as a first choice,
especially on 2000 points. Timurids would be a better choice. But Alex doesn't
care about tournament optimization; he cares about historical interest. He did
a big report for school this past year on the Mongols, and has developed great
admiration for Genghis Khan as a leader, and Subotai as a general. So Mongols
it is.

Now, don't get me wrong; Mongols is a fine list. At 1200 points it may be the
best list out there, particularly when the norm is to allow only one version of
a list. The dismount rule gives the Mongols effectively two versions of the list
out of a single version, which makes a huge difference.

At 1600 points I think it's still a strong list, and can work well in either
15mm or 25mm. But at 2000 points, I think it's just too cumbersome to work in
25mm. Hence the switch to 15mm....

And since I already have a Post Mongol Russian army in 15mm, I have most of the
figures I need.

Yes, I'll be painting up dismounts for a bunch of cav, as the dismount rule is
one of the big reasons to play the list. And yes, terrain will certainly be
easy to pack (4 loops of string). And on 2000 points I think there are some
other gimmicks one can afford that make the list more interesting....


-Mark Stone


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