Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

Okay some more questions ...

1) Under 8.3, eligible targets for shooting. The first bullet has elements in
hand-to-hand combat throughout the bound can't be shot at.

So if you have a formation of LC, B in two ranks, the back rank can be shot
at even if the front rank is in contact with an enemy unit?

Conversely, a second rank of LTS-armed foot would not be an eligible shooting
target since that rank counts as fighting?

2) I see no waver test for getting charged in the flank. Yes?

3) Troops contacted only to flank don't fight back? 9.2 refers to all armed
figures of an element with enemy "to its front."

4) Two 4E light cavalry units are fighting. On the last bound, the Red LC
gets pushed back in disorder. The Black LC follows up and expands one element
base. On this bound a Red LTS foot unit charges the flank of the Black LC. So
black now has a combat to front and, after pivot, 2E HI,LTS in contact with
its right flank. (Anoter 2E HI are hanging back 20 paces.)

After adjudicating casualites it comes out like this:

Red LC inflicts 6 casualties and takes 36.
Red HI inflicts 18 casualties. It takes none.

Black LC (rolls up 2) inflicts 36 casualties on Red LC. It takes a total of
24 casualties.

So, under 11.2,

Red LC breaks and routs.
Red HI stands, but must waver check for Red LC breaking.

Black LC disorders, but since it inflicted more than it took it does not
recoil. It cannot pursue Red LC.

Is this correct?



Sorry for all the questions. I am playing through a little Fast Warrior solo
game and want to know if I'm interpreting things correctly.

The evaders not getting to come back if they leave the table is what got the
Black LC in the example above in that 2-on-1 pickle.

I appreciate the help.

John Meunier


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[joncleaves]

<< 1) Under 8.3, eligible targets for shooting. The first bullet has elements in
hand-to-hand combat throughout the bound can't be shot at.

So if you have a formation of LC, B in two ranks, the back rank can be shot at
even if the front rank is in contact with an enemy unit?>>

It can be. If it meets 8.83 as well.

<< Conversely, a second rank of LTS-armed foot would not be an eligible shooting
target since that rank counts as fighting?>>

Correct.

<< 2) I see no waver test for getting charged in the flank. Yes? >>

There is not one 'just' for that, no. The one for surprise does have a flank
requirement.

<<> 3) Troops contacted only to flank don't fight back? 9.2 refers to all armed
figures of an element with enemy "to its front.">>

Generally true, but see 9.21, 3d and 4th sentences.

<< 4) Two 4E light cavalry units are fighting. On the last bound, the Red LC
gets pushed back in disorder. The Black LC follows up and expands one element
> base. On this bound a Red LTS foot unit charges the flank of the Black LC. So
black now has a combat to front and, after pivot, 2E HI,LTS in contact with
> its right flank. (Anoter 2E HI are hanging back 20 paces.)
>
> After adjudicating casualites it comes out like this:
>
> Red LC inflicts 6 casualties and takes 36.
> Red HI inflicts 18 casualties. It takes none.
>
> Black LC (rolls up 2) inflicts 36 casualties on Red LC. It takes a total of 24
casualties.
>
> So, under 11.2,
>
> Red LC breaks and routs.
> Red HI stands, but must waver check for Red LC breaking.
>
> Black LC disorders, but since it inflicted more than it took it does not
recoil. It cannot pursue Red LC.
>
> Is this correct?>>

That all looks good to me and I went over it three times.
"Black LC disorders" should be "Black LC becomes disordered due to receiving 3
CPF from combat" for clarity.

Jon

[Patrick Byrne]

On a side note to your question,
In the first bound, I can't see why one of the LC didn't break-off 11.224?
Did they really both do less than 8CPF in HTH? The fun part is the other LC
who catches the break-offer and Breaks him.

everything you mentioned appears to be correct, so I'll wait to see what Jon
says.
-PB




----- Original Message -----
From: <scribblerjohn@...>
To: <warriorrules@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 2:16 PM
Subject: [WarriorRules] more questions from playthrough


> Okay some more questions ...
>
> 1) Under 8.3, eligible targets for shooting. The first bullet has elements
in
> hand-to-hand combat throughout the bound can't be shot at.
>
> So if you have a formation of LC, B in two ranks, the back rank can be
shot
> at even if the front rank is in contact with an enemy unit?
>
> Conversely, a second rank of LTS-armed foot would not be an eligible
shooting
> target since that rank counts as fighting?
>
> 2) I see no waver test for getting charged in the flank. Yes?
>
> 3) Troops contacted only to flank don't fight back? 9.2 refers to all
armed
> figures of an element with enemy "to its front."
>
> 4) Two 4E light cavalry units are fighting. On the last bound, the Red LC
> gets pushed back in disorder. The Black LC follows up and expands one
element
> base. On this bound a Red LTS foot unit charges the flank of the Black LC.
So
> black now has a combat to front and, after pivot, 2E HI,LTS in contact
with
> its right flank. (Anoter 2E HI are hanging back 20 paces.)
>
> After adjudicating casualites it comes out like this:
>
> Red LC inflicts 6 casualties and takes 36.
> Red HI inflicts 18 casualties. It takes none.
>
> Black LC (rolls up 2) inflicts 36 casualties on Red LC. It takes a total
of
> 24 casualties.
>
> So, under 11.2,
>
> Red LC breaks and routs.
> Red HI stands, but must waver check for Red LC breaking.
>
> Black LC disorders, but since it inflicted more than it took it does not
> recoil. It cannot pursue Red LC.
>
> Is this correct?
>
>
>
> Sorry for all the questions. I am playing through a little Fast Warrior
solo
> game and want to know if I'm interpreting things correctly.
>
> The evaders not getting to come back if they leave the table is what got
the
> Black LC in the example above in that 2-on-1 pickle.
>
> I appreciate the help.
>
> John Meunier
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> WarriorRules-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

In a message dated 03/11/2002 2:00:58 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
jjendon@... writes:


> I must be reading/remembering incorrectly. I thought that in subsequent
> bounds of HTH any element not in contact with enemy would be a legal support
> shooting target. In that case the 2nd rank of LTS boys could be shot. Am I
> all wet here (rules not in front of me).
>
>

Rule 8.3 sez "elements in hand-to-hand contact" are not eligible targets.

Rule 8.83 sez third parties can shoot at a body in hand-to-hand "if the enemy
body has an element in arc and not in base to base contact with friendly
troops."

I asked the initial question because I wasn't sure if 8.3 refered to ranks
eligible to fight as being in "contact" or not. But rule 8.83 does appear to
say back rankers are eligible targets, even if eligible to fight.

John





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[joncleaves]

Oops.

See what happens when I hurry...

Don quotes me as saying 'correct' to the following question, but that is not
right -

<< Conversely, a second rank of LTS-armed foot would not be an eligible shooting
target since that rank counts as fighting?>>

Whether or not an element counts as fighting only matters if that element wants
to shoot in subsequent bounds. What matters as far as an element being an
eligible TARGET is that it is not in CONTACT.

The answer to the above question is, yes a second rank of foot armed with LTS
(or anything else) would be an eligible TARGET of shooting as long as it was not
in contact with an enemy element.

Thanks, Don.

J

[Chris Bump]

In a message dated Mon, 11 Mar 2002 2:30:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Holder,
Scott <FHWA>" <Scott.Holder@...> writes:

> Whether or not an element counts as fighting only matters if that
> element wants to shoot in subsequent bounds. What matters as far as an
> element being an eligible TARGET is that it is not in CONTACT.
>
> The answer to the above question is, yes a second rank of foot armed
> with LTS (or anything else) would be an eligible TARGET of shooting as
> long as it was not in contact with an enemy element.
>
> >Ah, this is another of those "important distinctions" from that "old"
> set of rules. Usta be if you had fought before, you weren't an eligible
> target. I screwed that up last week. Sorry Ed.
>
> Scott
> Out of Date Ho
>
Now I am confused. Suppose a body of LTS men are 2 ranks or even 3 ranks deep
and contacted to the front. In the subsequent bound the LTS formation is
charged in the flank by loose order archers, LMI B,Sh who are 2 ranks deep. In
subsequent bounds of combat (the LTS formation is quite resilient), the back
rank of archers could not shoot in support because the rear rank(s) of the LTS
formation is/are now in contact? I can't believe that was your intention.
Chris
>
>
>
>
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[joncleaves]

In a message dated 3/11/2002 16:18:36 Central Standard Time, cncbump@...
writes:

<< Now I am confused. Suppose a body of LTS men are 2 ranks or even 3 ranks
deep and contacted to the front. In the subsequent bound the LTS formation
is charged in the flank by loose order archers, LMI B,Sh who are 2 ranks
deep. In subsequent bounds of combat (the LTS formation is quite resilient),
the back rank of archers could not shoot in support because the rear rank(s)
of the LTS formation is/are now in contact? I can't believe that was your
intention.
>>

It isn't just my intention - it is the rule.

Jon

In a message dated 03/11/2002 5:25:04 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
JonCleaves@... writes:


> << Now I am confused. Suppose a body of LTS men are 2 ranks or even 3 ranks
> deep and contacted to the front. In the subsequent bound the LTS formation
> is charged in the flank by loose order archers, LMI B,Sh who are 2 ranks
> deep. In subsequent bounds of combat (the LTS formation is quite
> resilient),
> the back rank of archers could not shoot in support because the rear
> rank(s)
> of the LTS formation is/are now in contact? I can't believe that was your
> intention.
>
> >>
>
> It isn't just my intention - it is the rule.
>
> Jon
>
>

Now I thought a unit could always support shoot at a body it is currently
fighting in hand-to-hand combat. If the LMI, B, Sh are fighting the flank of
the LTS, then shouldn't they be able to support shoot at the same lessen.

8.83
"Bodies already in hand-to-hand contact from the previous bound can only
shoot at their opponents and then only with bow from a rank of figures not
eligible to fight. (9.2) Bodies already in hand-to-hand contact from the
previous bound can be shot at by bodies they are already in contact with, ..."

Unless I am misreading your question, I believe the rule says you can shoot.

John




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Don Coon]

> << Conversely, a second rank of LTS-armed foot would not be an eligible
shooting target since that rank counts as fighting?>>
>
> Correct.

I must be reading/remembering incorrectly. I thought that in subsequent
bounds of HTH any element not in contact with enemy would be a legal support
shooting target. In that case the 2nd rank of LTS boys could be shot. Am I
all wet here (rules not in front of me).

Don

[scott holder]

Whether or not an element counts as fighting only matters if that
element wants to shoot in subsequent bounds. What matters as far as an
element being an eligible TARGET is that it is not in CONTACT.

The answer to the above question is, yes a second rank of foot armed
with LTS (or anything else) would be an eligible TARGET of shooting as
long as it was not in contact with an enemy element.

>Ah, this is another of those "important distinctions" from that "old"
set of rules. Usta be if you had fought before, you weren't an eligible
target. I screwed that up last week. Sorry Ed.

Scott
Out of Date Ho

[Patrick Byrne]

I think what Chris was saying is that the 3 rank deep LTS can not be shot in
support.
When the rule is that the can (8.13, 8.3, 8.83). They just can't shoot if
the only element visible is in base to base contact with an opponent.
-PB

> From: JonCleaves@...
> Reply-To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 17:20:08 EST
> To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] more questions from playthrough
>
> In a message dated 3/11/2002 16:18:36 Central Standard Time, cncbump@...
> writes:
>
> << Now I am confused. Suppose a body of LTS men are 2 ranks or even 3 ranks
> deep and contacted to the front. In the subsequent bound the LTS formation
> is charged in the flank by loose order archers, LMI B,Sh who are 2 ranks
> deep. In subsequent bounds of combat (the LTS formation is quite resilient),
> the back rank of archers could not shoot in support because the rear rank(s)
> of the LTS formation is/are now in contact? I can't believe that was your
> intention.
>>>
>
> It isn't just my intention - it is the rule.
>
> Jon
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> WarriorRules-unsubscribe@egroups.com
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> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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>

[Chris Bump]

In a message dated Mon, 11 Mar 2002 6:49:04 PM Eastern Standard Time,
scribblerjohn@... writes:

> In a message dated 03/11/2002 5:25:04 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
> JonCleaves@... writes:
>
>
> > << Now I am confused. Suppose a body of LTS men are 2 ranks or even 3 ranks
> > deep and contacted to the front. In the subsequent bound the LTS formation
> > is charged in the flank by loose order archers, LMI B,Sh who are 2 ranks
> > deep. In subsequent bounds of combat (the LTS formation is quite
> > resilient),
> > the back rank of archers could not shoot in support because the rear
> > rank(s)
> > of the LTS formation is/are now in contact? I can't believe that was your
> > intention.
> >
> > >>
> >
> > It isn't just my intention - it is the rule.
> >
> > Jon
> >
> >
>
> Now I thought a unit could always support shoot at a body it is currently
> fighting in hand-to-hand combat. If the LMI, B, Sh are fighting the flank of
> the LTS, then shouldn't they be able to support shoot at the same lessen.
>
> 8.83
> "Bodies already in hand-to-hand contact from the previous bound can only
> shoot at their opponents and then only with bow from a rank of figures not
> eligible to fight. (9.2) Bodies already in hand-to-hand contact from the
> previous bound can be shot at by bodies they are already in contact with, ..."
>
> Unless I am misreading your question, I believe the rule says you can shoot.
>
> John

That was my understanding as well. IF it is not the case then the rather obtuse
situation like the following takes place: Archer unit, LMI B, Sh fights a LTS
unit to the front (face to face, both units 2 ranks deep). In this situation I
think all will agree that the rear rank of archers can shoot in support. The
archers will do moderate damage to the LTS unit. The contradicting situation,
if Jon's statement is as I interpreted it, is that that same archer unit is
fighting the same LTS unit but this time to the LTS units flank. According to
Jon's response the archer unit's rear rank could not shoot in support because
both elements of the LTS unit were in contact. The paradox here is that the
archer unit will actually do more damage to the LTS unit by fighting face to
face than it will attacking the LTS unit's flank. That is why I said that could
not be your intention. Is it still the correct interpretation of the rule?
Chris
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[joncleaves]

If you are a shooter and in contact with enemy, you still need an element in
the target body that is not in contact to be able to shoot. 8.3's first
bullet is the rule here.