Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[Mark Stone]

In the 7th/Warrior period, Dave Stier and Derek Downs are the only multiple
champions I'm aware of. I think Derek has won four times, with (not necesarily
in order, and not necessarily correct): Bactrians, Seleucids, Neo-Babylonians,
and cheesy -- err, I mean Silla -- Koreans.

Dave's record I know quite a bit better. He and I (and Frank Gilson, Sean Scott,
Jevon Garrett, Chris Cameron, Chris Schulitz, Greg Hauser, Bill Chamis) learned
7th together back in the 80s, and won Cold Wars together in 15mm playing
Tibetans. Lately Frank Gilson has been Dave's team partner, and I believe
they've won Cold Wars four times in a row now but Frank can pipe up and speak
to that.

In the Nationals, Dave won three times under 7th edition, and I'm pretty sure he
was playing Sicilian Hohenstaufen all three times. Dave did dabble with
Teutonic Knights back in the day, but my recollection is that after losing a
Nationals matchup to Derek, Dave concluded that the Teuts just didn't quite
have the balance he needed.

Dave is unlikely to play in the NICT again as: (1) his work schedule precludes
playing on Thursday/Saturday, (2) he doesn't like three 4 hour games in one
day, (3) he doesn't like having to work from a single list on 1600 points.

Besides knight armies, Dave has dabbled in the "dark side" (as those of us from
the University of Rochester referred to it) and played some elephant armies.
His preference there is Sultanate of Delhi. To my knowledge he's never played a
Roman army; our group mostly thinks of Romans as the sticky stuff underneath
our horses' hooves.


-Mark Stone

[Chris Damour]

I am pretty sure that Dave was using Tibetans when he won the year we
were in Hamilton, Ontario.

--
Christopher Damour

[Mark Stone]

--- On April 27 Chris Damour said: ---

>
> I am pretty sure that Dave was using Tibetans when he won the year we
> were in Hamilton, Ontario.
>

Chris,

Yes, you're right about that. It comes back to me now. Dave won twice with
Sicilian Hohenstafen, and the last time with Tibetans. He stopped playing for
several years after that. That was when DBM was on the rise, and heck if you've
won the NICT with Tibetans of all things what else is there really to do?
Warrior has changed enough things to have peaked his interest (and that of many
other old timers), and that's a good thing.


-Mark Stone

[scott holder]

Yes, you're right about that. It comes back to me now. Dave won twice with
Sicilian Hohenstafen, and the last time with Tibetans.

And to reiterate, Derek's won 5 times that we can collectively remember:
Bactrians, Neo-Babylonian, Han, Han, Silly Koreans:):)

I can think of 5 other one time winners off the top of my head:

Eric Turner
Dave Markowitz
Todd Kaeser
Jon Green
Chris Damour

I'm "missing" around four winners in there by my quick head count back to 1987.
I can't remember who won either of the two years I played back in the mid-90s.
I know Derek wasn't one of those years since he "only" beat me 3-2 (Khmer vs L
Otts, he was running L Otts) and by the time we played, we were in the middle of
the pack and obviously that game did little to vault either of us forward. I
*think* Tim Brown might have won that year but just don't recall.

Depends on how far back you go. Are you speaking specifically of the
NICT?

If you go back before that to ancient Ancients (5th and 6th) Steve
Herndon won quite a few Origins tournaments in a row in the late
70s/early 80s, and then Kruse and I came along and ended that one
glorious Sunday in Detroit. I won a bunch of Historicons and Origins in
6th.

Bob

Mark Stone wrote:

> In the 7th/Warrior period, Dave Stier and Derek Downs are the only
> multiple
> champions I'm aware of. I think Derek has won four times, with (not
> necesarily
> in order, and not necessarily correct): Bactrians, Seleucids,
> Neo-Babylonians,
> and cheesy -- err, I mean Silla -- Koreans.
>

[Ewan McNay]

Someone, somewhere, should preserve this history :)

Bob Andriola wrote:

> Depends on how far back you go. Are you speaking specifically of the
> NICT?
>
> If you go back before that to ancient Ancients (5th and 6th) Steve
> Herndon won quite a few Origins tournaments in a row in the late
> 70s/early 80s, and then Kruse and I came along and ended that one
> glorious Sunday in Detroit. I won a bunch of Historicons and Origins in
> 6th.
>
> Bob
>
> Mark Stone wrote:
>
>
>>In the 7th/Warrior period, Dave Stier and Derek Downs are the only
>>multiple
>>champions I'm aware of. I think Derek has won four times, with (not
>>necesarily
>>in order, and not necessarily correct): Bactrians, Seleucids,
>>Neo-Babylonians,
>>and cheesy -- err, I mean Silla -- Koreans.
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

[Chris Damour]

Didn't Dave Markowitz win twice? Beat my Teutonics with Seleucids
and then won with 100 YWE (Wait, that doesn't count because that was the
year Fern wouldn't let me go to H'con! <<grin>>)

--
Christopher Damour

On Tue, 27 Apr 2004, Holder, Scott wrote:

> Yes, you're right about that. It comes back to me now. Dave won twice with
> Sicilian Hohenstafen, and the last time with Tibetans.
>
> And to reiterate, Derek's won 5 times that we can collectively remember:
Bactrians, Neo-Babylonian, Han, Han, Silly Koreans:)
>
> I can think of 5 other one time winners off the top of my head:
>
> Eric Turner
> Dave Markowitz
> Todd Kaeser
> Jon Green
> Chris Damour
>
> I'm "missing" around four winners in there by my quick head count back to
1987. I can't remember who won either of the two years I played back in the
mid-90s. I know Derek wasn't one of those years since he "only" beat me 3-2
(Khmer vs L Otts, he was running L Otts) and by the time we played, we were in
the middle of the pack and obviously that game did little to vault either of us
forward. I *think* Tim Brown might have won that year but just don't recall.
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Didn't Bill Low win once?

Are we talking strictly 25mm? I know Brett Steiffel one 15mm one
year, and I think a couple of others whose face but not their names I
remember.

And Derek one once with Selucids, so that is 6 times. Don't think he
ever got the Later Otts to win the NICT, but I know he played them
for about three years straight.

Wanax

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, damourc <damourc@k...> wrote:
> Didn't Dave Markowitz win twice? Beat my Teutonics with
Seleucids
> and then won with 100 YWE (Wait, that doesn't count because that
was the
> year Fern wouldn't let me go to H'con! <<grin>>)
>
> --
> Christopher Damour
>
> On Tue, 27 Apr 2004, Holder, Scott wrote:
>
> > Yes, you're right about that. It comes back to me now. Dave won
twice with
> > Sicilian Hohenstafen, and the last time with Tibetans.
> >
> > And to reiterate, Derek's won 5 times that we can collectively
remember: Bactrians, Neo-Babylonian, Han, Han, Silly Koreans:)
> >
> > I can think of 5 other one time winners off the top of my head:
> >
> > Eric Turner
> > Dave Markowitz
> > Todd Kaeser
> > Jon Green
> > Chris Damour
> >
> > I'm "missing" around four winners in there by my quick head count
back to 1987. I can't remember who won either of the two years I
played back in the mid-90s. I know Derek wasn't one of those years
since he "only" beat me 3-2 (Khmer vs L Otts, he was running L Otts)
and by the time we played, we were in the middle of the pack and
obviously that game did little to vault either of us forward. I
*think* Tim Brown might have won that year but just don't recall.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

[Larry Essick]

Bob Plyler won in 15mm twice, but lost in the championship games to
Derek and Dave, IIRC.

It would be interesting to know who won the two scales back when we
used to have a playoff to determine the actual NCT winner (no "I" in
it back then). IIRC, Bob played Spanish and Vikings (or maybe
Carthaginians and Spanish??).

Larry

Bob Plyler. There's a name I haven't heard in a while.

Lou Cardinale (Sicilian Hohenstaufen IIRC) won once in 7th. Beat Wayne
Dare (LIR) to win the 15s and then beat ? Joe Barossa ? (Aztec or Inca,
IIRC) in the final. I think Morgan Conrad won the year before, with
something odd like Burmese. He beat Johnson in the final (Seleucids).
I think that was the last year that 6th edition was played, though.

For those of you interested in "ill timed high rolls that cost a game"
useless trivia, Johnson beat me in the semis that year because I rolled
an 18 on a morale check with some scythians. Instead of chasing
Johnson's smaller unit of scythians off the table (and looting his
baggage) they charged impetuously into a unit of SHC and got creamed.

Bob

larryessick@... wrote:

> Bob Plyler won in 15mm twice, but lost in the championship games to
> Derek and Dave, IIRC.
>
> It would be interesting to know who won the two scales back when we
> used to have a playoff to determine the actual NCT winner (no "I" in
> it back then). IIRC, Bob played Spanish and Vikings (or maybe
> Carthaginians and Spanish??).
>
> Larry
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>

--
- Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit
materiari?

[scott holder]

Ah, the memories come flooding back. Yes, Lou won one of the first 7th NICTs.
I wanna say that Morgan won in 6th but I could be off by a year and he won one
of the first two 7th NICTs.

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Andriola [mailto:doctormm@...]
Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2004 2:43 PM
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] Re: national champions


Bob Plyler. There's a name I haven't heard in a while.

Lou Cardinale (Sicilian Hohenstaufen IIRC) won once in 7th. Beat Wayne
Dare (LIR) to win the 15s and then beat ? Joe Barossa ? (Aztec or Inca,
IIRC) in the final. I think Morgan Conrad won the year before, with
something odd like Burmese. He beat Johnson in the final (Seleucids).
I think that was the last year that 6th edition was played, though.

For those of you interested in "ill timed high rolls that cost a game"
useless trivia, Johnson beat me in the semis that year because I rolled
an 18 on a morale check with some scythians. Instead of chasing
Johnson's smaller unit of scythians off the table (and looting his
baggage) they charged impetuously into a unit of SHC and got creamed.

Bob

larryessick@... wrote:

> Bob Plyler won in 15mm twice, but lost in the championship games to
> Derek and Dave, IIRC.
>
> It would be interesting to know who won the two scales back when we
> used to have a playoff to determine the actual NCT winner (no "I" in
> it back then). IIRC, Bob played Spanish and Vikings (or maybe
> Carthaginians and Spanish??).
>
> Larry
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WarriorRules/
>
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> WarriorRules-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:WarriorRules-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
>
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
>
>

--
- Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit
materiari?







Yahoo! Groups Links

Morgan's victory was definitely 6th. It was the same tournament I
mentioned the morale roll.

He came to the NICT the next year, under 7th, using Marians. That was
the year that Lou won. It was also the tournament that gave us Todd
Fisher's "They're spelling Purdue" quote (about his army's movements).

Holder, Scott wrote:

> Ah, the memories come flooding back. Yes, Lou won one of the first
> 7th NICTs. I wanna say that Morgan won in 6th but I could be off by a
> year and he won one of the first two 7th NICTs.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bob Andriola [mailto:doctormm@...]
> Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2004 2:43 PM
> To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] Re: national champions
>
>
> Bob Plyler. There's a name I haven't heard in a while.
>
> Lou Cardinale (Sicilian Hohenstaufen IIRC) won once in 7th. Beat Wayne
> Dare (LIR) to win the 15s and then beat ? Joe Barossa ? (Aztec or Inca,
> IIRC) in the final. I think Morgan Conrad won the year before, with
> something odd like Burmese. He beat Johnson in the final (Seleucids).
> I think that was the last year that 6th edition was played, though.
>
> For those of you interested in "ill timed high rolls that cost a game"
> useless trivia, Johnson beat me in the semis that year because I rolled
> an 18 on a morale check with some scythians. Instead of chasing
> Johnson's smaller unit of scythians off the table (and looting his
> baggage) they charged impetuously into a unit of SHC and got creamed.
>
> Bob
>
> larryessick@... wrote:
>
> > Bob Plyler won in 15mm twice, but lost in the championship games to
> > Derek and Dave, IIRC.
> >
> > It would be interesting to know who won the two scales back when we
> > used to have a playoff to determine the actual NCT winner (no "I" in
> > it back then). IIRC, Bob played Spanish and Vikings (or maybe
> > Carthaginians and Spanish??).
> >
> > Larry
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WarriorRules/
> >
> > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > WarriorRules-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> <mailto:WarriorRules-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
> >
> > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
> >
> >
>
> --
> - Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam
> possit materiari?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WarriorRules/
>
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> WarriorRules-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:WarriorRules-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
>
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
>
>

--
- Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit
materiari?

[Mark Stone]

--- On April 27 Bob Andriola said: ---

>
> Morgan's victory was definitely 6th. It was the same tournament I
> mentioned the morale roll.
>
> He came to the NICT the next year, under 7th, using Marians. That was
> the year that Lou won. It was also the tournament that gave us Todd
> Fisher's "They're spelling Purdue" quote (about his army's movements).

Morgan Conrad and Joe Barosso were two of the original West Coast ancients
players. Both were most active in 6th edition, but played into 7th edition.

Morgan played a wide variety of armies in the early days of 7th. I remember
getting "schooled" by him when he was playing Magyars, and on another occaision
when he was playing Khmer. He still lives here in Northern California as far as
I know, but like many veterans was driven out of the hobby by his disgust with
DBM.

Joe never really took to 7th, though he was quite good at it. I got a real
stomping from him when I was playing Medieval French and he was playing Aztecs.
Aztecs was always Joe's thing (he can claim ancestry going back to the Aztecs),
and he played them as well as anyone I've seen. Sadly, Joe lost interest even
before the advent of DBM, and I haven't heard from him in years.


-Mark Stone

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 4/27/2004 19:50:39 Central Daylight Time,
DMarkowitz@... writes:
Actually, I'm a 3-time winner:>>

I'm glad you spoke up, Dave. I knew you were, and was searching for the info
to prove it. You saved me the trouble...lol


BTW, Todd Kaeser keeps meticulous records of every tournament battle he has,
and he has has a running list of NITC winners for at least the last 10 years.>>

Thus emphasizing my need to concentrate on Warrior at the expense of the
dozen other game systems I play... damn specialists! lol

J


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[joncleaves]

In a message dated 4/27/2004 21:10:45 Central Daylight Time,
DMarkowitz@... writes:
IMO, this army was much more effective in 7th then it would be in Warrior.
This is because of the changes in shooting arc between the two rules sets.
Under 7th, my Regular LC could avoid most shooting for a turn or two -- enough
time to set up whatever I had cooking. Under Warrior, the invisible element arc
(You know what I mean) creates enough firepower to push all the pesky LC
units back. Don't get me wrong, I still love units of 4 LC as a support troop,
I
just don't think they can really form a viable core of an army anymore. >>

Hmmm. I know Mark's thoughts on this rule and have been trying to recreate
the issue, especially while working on possible Mongol list rules.

But, I am not sure what the core issue is. First, 7th was broken here. It
caused some elements to have different arcs than others solely based on who was
nearby and not based on where the weapons could reach. The mechanic is
elegant and leaves us not needing shooting arc templates.
Second, I think the 2xHC, 3-4xLC 'system' for the Mongols and others is
viable and needs to be. It is the focus of the mechanical part of some of the
list
rules I am going to propose to Scott once the draft is done. I *think* the
issue is that in 7th, you could approach the corner of a shooter closely and be
safe from its shooting - which is unrealistic, and I think unnecessary in any
case - even in 7th, all you had to do was keep bodies touching to have the
same effect (crazily the 'prolonger' didn't have to be a shooter to extend the
arc of an adjacent shooter...???). I did hear Phil say once that his intent
was essentially the way the Warrior is, but heck I heard him say a lot of
things...lol

So, is the issue that under 7th, one could approach very close to the corner
of a shooter without fear of any shooting, or is there something else that is
up with this 'issue'?

J


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]